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From: Dan Morehouse <morehous@az.com>
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Subject: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
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Hello!

There has been a fair amount of
discussion about the strengthening of
the fuselage due to the heavier O320
engines and the spring gear, both of
which I'll be using (actually the
slightly heavier Subaru EJ22). I plan on
making an 040 tapered corner to go from
the cage to the firewall. I figure this
will keep me one step ahead of the ever
thickening requirements for that part
;-) Also, since I won't be using the 025
corner supplied by MAM, I intend to use
it for the top tapered corner.

I was just about to cut into the door
post support (think that's what it's
called, that heavy triangular shaped
piece of metal, Fus9) but thought I'd
check to see if there are any
suggestions to strengthen this area.
Some have mentioned using larger rivets,
but I'm not sure if this is the area.

I do have the plans for the spring gear
reinforcing plates, the ones that are
cut out to look sort of wavy. Hope this
will be good for my plans.

Please let me know,
Dan Morehouse

Oh, yeah..... Somebody mentioned a float
attachment reinforcement or something
like that. I plan on floats and have put
in the brackets. I looked through MAM's
web page and builders support page and
didn't see any reference for that.
What/where is it?





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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:02:01 +1300
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Hi Dan,

Make sure you have a copy of Murphy's 'Floatfix.Doc.' Bulletin, that will
explain all!

Cheers

Alister


----------

From: Dan Morehouse <morehous@az.com>
To: murtech@murphyair.com; Murphy-Rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 3:57 PM

Hello!

There has been a fair amount of
discussion about the strengthening of
the fuselage due to the heavier O320
engines and the spring gear, both of
which I'll be using (actually the
slightly heavier Subaru EJ22). I plan on
making an 040 tapered corner to go from
the cage to the firewall. I figure this
will keep me one step ahead of the ever
thickening requirements for that part
;-) Also, since I won't be using the 025
corner supplied by MAM, I intend to use
it for the top tapered corner.

I was just about to cut into the door
post support (think that's what it's
called, that heavy triangular shaped
piece of metal, Fus9) but thought I'd
check to see if there are any
suggestions to strengthen this area.
Some have mentioned using larger rivets,
but I'm not sure if this is the area.

I do have the plans for the spring gear
reinforcing plates, the ones that are
cut out to look sort of wavy. Hope this
will be good for my plans.

Please let me know,
Dan Morehouse

Oh, yeah..... Somebody mentioned a float
attachment reinforcement or something
like that. I plan on floats and have put
in the brackets. I looked through MAM's
web page and builders support page and
didn't see any reference for that.
What/where is it?

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To: " (Murphy Rebel)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
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Dan
Go easy on yourself and use 0.032 for the bottom corner wraps. They are hard
enough to wrap. Don't believe heavier will help anything as the movement
someone
reported seems to be related to the number and/or size of the rivets, not
the
metal thickness. Sometimes, in a severe overload condition, an overly thick
panel may tend to shear the rivets one by one, rather than flexing enough to
equalize the load through all the rivets.
Ken

Dan Morehouse wrote:

Hello!

There has been a fair amount of
discussion about the strengthening of
the fuselage due to the heavier O320
engines and the spring gear, both of
which I'll be using (actually the
slightly heavier Subaru EJ22). I plan on
making an 040 tapered corner to go from
the cage to the firewall. I figure this
will keep me one step ahead of the ever
thickening requirements for that part
;-) Also, since I won't be using the 025
corner supplied by MAM, I intend to use
it for the top tapered corner.

I was just about to cut into the door
post support (think that's what it's
called, that heavy triangular shaped
piece of metal, Fus9) but thought I'd
check to see if there are any
suggestions to strengthen this area.
Some have mentioned using larger rivets,
but I'm not sure if this is the area.

I do have the plans for the spring gear
reinforcing plates, the ones that are
cut out to look sort of wavy. Hope this
will be good for my plans.

Please let me know,
Dan Morehouse

Oh, yeah..... Somebody mentioned a float
attachment reinforcement or something
like that. I plan on floats and have put
in the brackets. I looked through MAM's
web page and builders support page and
didn't see any reference for that.
What/where is it?

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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 23:05:54 -0600
From: Dan Morehouse <morehous@az.com>
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To: " (Murphy Rebel)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
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Thanks for the response, Alister, but I need a bit more help. I went to the
MAM page, used their search feature and plugged in 'floatfix.doc' which
yielded something on the nicopress thingy. Do you know where I could get
this gem?

Take it easy,
Dan

Alister Yeoman wrote:

Hi Dan,

Make sure you have a copy of Murphy's 'Floatfix.Doc.' Bulletin, that will
explain all!

Cheers

Alister

----------

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:56:32 +1300
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Hi Dan,

I see Dave has sent the address to pick up the floatfix bulletin, ( Thanks
Dave!) but remember that Bob mentioned that there has been an addition to
that very recently, that is, the addition of more and larger diameter
rivets down the doorposts.

Bob suggests to contact Murphy for details on this, it sounds like a good
idea and I am certainly going to make a move in this area.

This is a quote straight from the Murphy crowd, ' even though you're not on
floats its obvious that its only a matter of time before this ( the
floatfix problem) will affect you'.

I think all Rebel owners should take note of this whether they intend to
fit floats or not.

Cheers

Alister

----------

From: Dan Morehouse <morehous@az.com>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 6:05 PM

Thanks for the response, Alister, but I need a bit more help. I went to

the

MAM page, used their search feature and plugged in 'floatfix.doc' which
yielded something on the nicopress thingy. Do you know where I could get
this gem?

Take it easy,
Dan

Alister Yeoman wrote:

Hi Dan,

Make sure you have a copy of Murphy's 'Floatfix.Doc.' Bulletin, that

will

explain all!

Cheers

Alister

----------

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From: "Charles Skorupa" <chucks@gte.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 23:47:11 -0800
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Has Murphy incorporated this into their kits as the standard configuration
after a certain date? They are usually very good about that.

- Chuck Skorupa -
-----Original Message-----
From: Alister Yeoman <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?

Hi Dan,

I see Dave has sent the address to pick up the floatfix bulletin, ( Thanks
Dave!) but remember that Bob mentioned that there has been an addition to
that very recently, that is, the addition of more and larger diameter
rivets down the doorposts.

Bob suggests to contact Murphy for details on this, it sounds like a good
idea and I am certainly going to make a move in this area.

This is a quote straight from the Murphy crowd, ' even though you're not on
floats its obvious that its only a matter of time before this ( the
floatfix problem) will affect you'.

I think all Rebel owners should take note of this whether they intend to
fit floats or not.

Cheers

Alister

----------

From: Dan Morehouse <morehous@az.com>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 6:05 PM

Thanks for the response, Alister, but I need a bit more help. I went to

the

MAM page, used their search feature and plugged in 'floatfix.doc' which
yielded something on the nicopress thingy. Do you know where I could get
this gem?

Take it easy,
Dan

Alister Yeoman wrote:

Hi Dan,

Make sure you have a copy of Murphy's 'Floatfix.Doc.' Bulletin, that

will

explain all!

Cheers

Alister

----------

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float
reinforcement?
Message-Id: <E0zdoFR-0001bF-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:20:46 -0500


Alister,
I had another look at the "floatfix" bulletin, and it doesn't
mention the extra rivets - maybe just being updated now ??

All the more reason to check with Tech Support directly - there
may be other recent additions as well.

I agree completely - if you're still building, ADD THE MODS !!
Even if you don't plan floats !

There is no question that the bungee gear is stronger, better
triangulated to spread the loads, and MUCH more effective in energy
dissipation (the friction of hundreds of strands of rubber, rubbing
over each other !). It is also 28 lb. lighter, and about $700 cheaper !

BUT - the spring gear looks sexy, and "Cessna did it, so it
must be good" ..... Murphy bowed to customer demand.

You're right about the problems with Cessnas - ask anyone
who's owned one for a while about the inspections and problems with
the gear box structure . Again, these are things that the general
public DOESN'T hear about - they only hear the good bits. ALL aircraft
have problem areas (the fuel system on the Aeronca Sedan comes to
mind !! - horrible !!)

Please keep us posted on progress ....

Thanks ! .....bobp


--------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 07:56 PM 11/8/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hi Dan,

I see Dave has sent the address to pick up the floatfix bulletin, ( Thanks
Dave!) but remember that Bob mentioned that there has been an addition to
that very recently, that is, the addition of more and larger diameter
rivets down the doorposts.

Bob suggests to contact Murphy for details on this, it sounds like a good
idea and I am certainly going to make a move in this area.

This is a quote straight from the Murphy crowd, ' even though you're not on
floats its obvious that its only a matter of time before this ( the
floatfix problem) will affect you'.

I think all Rebel owners should take note of this whether they intend to
fit floats or not.

Cheers

Alister

----------

From: Dan Morehouse <morehous@az.com>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 6:05 PM

Thanks for the response, Alister, but I need a bit more help. I went to

the

MAM page, used their search feature and plugged in 'floatfix.doc' which
yielded something on the nicopress thingy. Do you know where I could get
this gem?

Take it easy,
Dan

Alister Yeoman wrote:

Hi Dan,

Make sure you have a copy of Murphy's 'Floatfix.Doc.' Bulletin, that

will

explain all!

Cheers

Alister

----------

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To: " (Murphy Rebel)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float
reinforcement?
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Bob,
I dare to differ. I believe through 2 complete gear failures that the
spring
gear is probably a better system, stronger, safer, if used right out of the
box. Having been the reason for the safety cable AD was the first failure.
And
a ground loop being the reason for the second. Had the gear stayed together
in
the ground loop incident I would not have spent the next 9 months
rebuilding.
Yet.........in getting and starting the mod for the spring gear the same
feeling
of nausea (and much greater in strength)overcame that actual installation.

Everytime I have had that little voice induce nausea in my brain it was for
good
reason. That is why I sent the spring gear back and rebuilt the original
gear
out of chromemoly. Yes it is heavier than the aluminum gear, but I won't be
rebuilding the airplane every other year. Twice is enough. In regards to
the
aluminum spring gear visualize this. Touch down on a rough mountain strip
and
encounter a gopher hole. I see bolt heads popping and the creation of a
retractable gear. Yes, the Murphy demos have not had a problem, but keep in
mind who has been flying the demos. Robin hasn't made a lot of bad landings
lately. A drop test is fine and strainght down it will come through every
time. Try a drop test while encountering that gopher hole at 30 mph. Food
for
thought.

I do agree that the bungee gear is better, but only after mods. I also
reinforced the fus between the front and rear attach point with 2" square
tube.
No more wrinkling of skins in the door area.

I believe that any area of the airplane that is cause for concern needs to
be
looked at really hard, as I have had problems with every area that has ever
been
a concern. Don't consider that since Murphy designed it it must be okay.
The
design testing is a result of years of use. More AD's will come and go as
weaknesses are discovered. Better to look ahead and visualize the trouble
before it happens.

The float fix. That became apparent right away after the groundloop. The
rivets sheared full lenght of the door post, the windshield shattered, the
engine almost left the firewall. I believe the nose area needs major
strength
mods. Just my own personal feelings. Created through experience.

Don't think I don't love the airplane. It is wonderful and I would build
another in a heartbeat. What a joy to fly.

Dave Bangle

Bob Patterson wrote:

Alister,
I had another look at the "floatfix" bulletin, and it doesn't
mention the extra rivets - maybe just being updated now ??

All the more reason to check with Tech Support directly - there
may be other recent additions as well.

I agree completely - if you're still building, ADD THE MODS !!
Even if you don't plan floats !

There is no question that the bungee gear is stronger, better
triangulated to spread the loads, and MUCH more effective in energy
dissipation (the friction of hundreds of strands of rubber, rubbing
over each other !). It is also 28 lb. lighter, and about $700 cheaper !

BUT - the spring gear looks sexy, and "Cessna did it, so it
must be good" ..... Murphy bowed to customer demand.

You're right about the problems with Cessnas - ask anyone
who's owned one for a while about the inspections and problems with
the gear box structure . Again, these are things that the general
public DOESN'T hear about - they only hear the good bits. ALL aircraft
have problem areas (the fuel system on the Aeronca Sedan comes to
mind !! - horrible !!)

Please keep us posted on progress ....

Thanks ! .....bobp

--------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 07:56 PM 11/8/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hi Dan,

I see Dave has sent the address to pick up the floatfix bulletin, (

Thanks

Dave!) but remember that Bob mentioned that there has been an addition to
that very recently, that is, the addition of more and larger diameter
rivets down the doorposts.

Bob suggests to contact Murphy for details on this, it sounds like a good
idea and I am certainly going to make a move in this area.

This is a quote straight from the Murphy crowd, ' even though you're not

on

floats its obvious that its only a matter of time before this ( the
floatfix problem) will affect you'.

I think all Rebel owners should take note of this whether they intend to
fit floats or not.

Cheers

Alister

----------

From: Dan Morehouse <morehous@az.com>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float

reinforcement?

Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 6:05 PM

Thanks for the response, Alister, but I need a bit more help. I went to

the

MAM page, used their search feature and plugged in 'floatfix.doc' which
yielded something on the nicopress thingy. Do you know where I could

get

this gem?

Take it easy,
Dan

Alister Yeoman wrote:

will

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; floatreinforcement?
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:13:52 +1300
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Hi Dave Bangle

Hope you dont mind me jumping in here, you have raised some interesting
points.

You have obviously been through the mill in regards to landing gear!

If I read your message correctly you regard the spring gear as the
potential problem rather than the attachment or load dissipation.

I have been concerned about the mounting system ( and load dissipation) for
a while, as can been seen by the number of times I have metioned this topic
in this forum, I now have reason to be even more concerned.

I have just removed my wings to do some 'mods' to the fuse as previously
discribed, and I found damage to the mounts that would have resulted in the
loss of the right hand gear within a very short period of time.

The damage is to the forward stradle bolt mounting on the right side, the
main carrythrough member has cracked right thru' to the outside leaving the
bolt loose to work and eventually pull thru'.

I remember thinking while mounting the gear that it seemed underdone in
this area, the rest of the carrythrough has been beefed up with plates on
top except the area that needs it most, and the edge clearances if you
follow the manual are not great.

The forces on this front bolt and surrounding mounting area are very great
under braking and rough ground etc.

I possibly could take a bit of the blame in that I did not retighten the
gear bolts until I had done about 20hrs, I believe it should be done
regularly over the first few hours of use ( hindsight of course!).

It is early days yet in regards to how I 'fix' this, but I think what I may
do is run reasonably heavy piece of 4130 steel down the wing attach bracket
across and down the forward carrythrough and also along inwards to meet up
with the top plates.(4130 may be a little easier to work----who cares about
the weight if it holds!!)

I am considering welding another piece of 4130 around the stradle bolt hole
as a doubler so that the bolt wont break out again with the limited edge
clearance available. I will be replacing the stradle bolt with 3/8" as in
the elite and increasing the diameter of the inboard bolt.

As you can see Dave, I am very sensitive about this area as you are, but I
see the potenial problems as more in the design of the mountings rather
than the gear inself which at this stage I consider to be more than
adequate.

Do you have any info that may make me want to reconsider my opinion?

What area's in the nose area do you consider need more strenght?

Cheers

Alister



----------

From: subersys <subersys@nidlink.com>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; floatreinforcement?
Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 4:58 AM

Bob,
I dare to differ. I believe through 2 complete gear failures that the

spring

gear is probably a better system, stronger, safer, if used right out of

the

box. Having been the reason for the safety cable AD was the first

failure. And

a ground loop being the reason for the second. Had the gear stayed

together in

the ground loop incident I would not have spent the next 9 months

rebuilding.

Yet.........in getting and starting the mod for the spring gear the same

feeling

of nausea (and much greater in strength)overcame that actual

installation.

Everytime I have had that little voice induce nausea in my brain it was

for good

reason. That is why I sent the spring gear back and rebuilt the original

gear

out of chromemoly. Yes it is heavier than the aluminum gear, but I won't

be

rebuilding the airplane every other year. Twice is enough. In regards

to the

aluminum spring gear visualize this. Touch down on a rough mountain

strip and

encounter a gopher hole. I see bolt heads popping and the creation of a
retractable gear. Yes, the Murphy demos have not had a problem, but keep

in

mind who has been flying the demos. Robin hasn't made a lot of bad

landings

lately. A drop test is fine and strainght down it will come through

every

time. Try a drop test while encountering that gopher hole at 30 mph.

Food for

thought.

I do agree that the bungee gear is better, but only after mods. I also
reinforced the fus between the front and rear attach point with 2" square

tube.

No more wrinkling of skins in the door area.

I believe that any area of the airplane that is cause for concern needs

to be

looked at really hard, as I have had problems with every area that has

ever been

a concern. Don't consider that since Murphy designed it it must be okay.

The

design testing is a result of years of use. More AD's will come and go

as

weaknesses are discovered. Better to look ahead and visualize the

trouble

before it happens.

The float fix. That became apparent right away after the groundloop.

The

rivets sheared full lenght of the door post, the windshield shattered,

the

engine almost left the firewall. I believe the nose area needs major

strength

mods. Just my own personal feelings. Created through experience.

Don't think I don't love the airplane. It is wonderful and I would build
another in a heartbeat. What a joy to fly.

Dave Bangle

Bob Patterson wrote:

Alister,
I had another look at the "floatfix" bulletin, and it doesn't
mention the extra rivets - maybe just being updated now ??

All the more reason to check with Tech Support directly - there
may be other recent additions as well.

I agree completely - if you're still building, ADD THE MODS !!
Even if you don't plan floats !

There is no question that the bungee gear is stronger, better
triangulated to spread the loads, and MUCH more effective in energy
dissipation (the friction of hundreds of strands of rubber, rubbing
over each other !). It is also 28 lb. lighter, and about $700 cheaper !

BUT - the spring gear looks sexy, and "Cessna did it, so it
must be good" ..... Murphy bowed to customer demand.

You're right about the problems with Cessnas - ask anyone
who's owned one for a while about the inspections and problems with
the gear box structure . Again, these are things that the general
public DOESN'T hear about - they only hear the good bits. ALL aircraft
have problem areas (the fuel system on the Aeronca Sedan comes to
mind !! - horrible !!)

Please keep us posted on progress ....

Thanks ! .....bobp

--------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 07:56 PM 11/8/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hi Dan,

I see Dave has sent the address to pick up the floatfix bulletin, (

Thanks

Dave!) but remember that Bob mentioned that there has been an addition

to

that very recently, that is, the addition of more and larger diameter
rivets down the doorposts.

Bob suggests to contact Murphy for details on this, it sounds like a

good

idea and I am certainly going to make a move in this area.

This is a quote straight from the Murphy crowd, ' even though you're

not on

floats its obvious that its only a matter of time before this ( the
floatfix problem) will affect you'.

I think all Rebel owners should take note of this whether they intend

to

fit floats or not.

Cheers

Alister

----------

reinforcement?

to

the

which

get

that

will

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Received: from dialup.voyager.co.nz (ts1p02.net.ashburton.voyager.co.nz
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Message-Id: <199811130720.UAA24316@host02.net.voyager.co.nz>
From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:21:40 +1300
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Hi Dave,

I am afaid I will be away for the next five days but will make contact
after that.

I have contacted Muphy today regarding this issue and they are treating it
high priority, so hopefully I will have more info with in perhaps a week.

Cheers

Alister

----------

From: subersys <subersys@nidlink.com>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; floatreinforcement?
Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 5:49 PM

Sorry I have no time today but will respond first of the week. But just

for

thought, I agree. It is not the gear itself but the way it is attached.
Consider the Cessna gear box. A substantial structure. The Rebel

structure is

a "strap"? Sounds a little under done to me. One bolt head or bolt, yes

the

front one, and the whole leg retracts.
More later
Dave

Alister Yeoman wrote:

Hi Dave Bangle

Hope you dont mind me jumping in here, you have raised some interesting
points.

You have obviously been through the mill in regards to landing gear!

If I read your message correctly you regard the spring gear as the
potential problem rather than the attachment or load dissipation.

I have been concerned about the mounting system ( and load dissipation)

for

a while, as can been seen by the number of times I have metioned this

topic

in this forum, I now have reason to be even more concerned.

I have just removed my wings to do some 'mods' to the fuse as

previously

discribed, and I found damage to the mounts that would have resulted in

the

loss of the right hand gear within a very short period of time.

The damage is to the forward stradle bolt mounting on the right side,

the

main carrythrough member has cracked right thru' to the outside leaving

the

bolt loose to work and eventually pull thru'.

I remember thinking while mounting the gear that it seemed underdone in
this area, the rest of the carrythrough has been beefed up with plates

on

top except the area that needs it most, and the edge clearances if you
follow the manual are not great.

The forces on this front bolt and surrounding mounting area are very

great

under braking and rough ground etc.

I possibly could take a bit of the blame in that I did not retighten

the

gear bolts until I had done about 20hrs, I believe it should be done
regularly over the first few hours of use ( hindsight of course!).

It is early days yet in regards to how I 'fix' this, but I think what I

may

do is run reasonably heavy piece of 4130 steel down the wing attach

bracket

across and down the forward carrythrough and also along inwards to meet

up

with the top plates.(4130 may be a little easier to work----who cares

about

the weight if it holds!!)

I am considering welding another piece of 4130 around the stradle bolt

hole

as a doubler so that the bolt wont break out again with the limited

edge

clearance available. I will be replacing the stradle bolt with 3/8" as

in

the elite and increasing the diameter of the inboard bolt.

As you can see Dave, I am very sensitive about this area as you are,

but I

see the potenial problems as more in the design of the mountings rather
than the gear inself which at this stage I consider to be more than
adequate.

Do you have any info that may make me want to reconsider my opinion?

What area's in the nose area do you consider need more strenght?

Cheers

Alister

----------

From: subersys <subersys@nidlink.com>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear;

floatreinforcement?

Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 4:58 AM

Bob,
I dare to differ. I believe through 2 complete gear failures that

the

spring

gear is probably a better system, stronger, safer, if used right out

of

the

box. Having been the reason for the safety cable AD was the first

failure. And

a ground loop being the reason for the second. Had the gear stayed

together in

the ground loop incident I would not have spent the next 9 months

rebuilding.

Yet.........in getting and starting the mod for the spring gear the

same

feeling

of nausea (and much greater in strength)overcame that actual

installation.

Everytime I have had that little voice induce nausea in my brain it

was

for good

reason. That is why I sent the spring gear back and rebuilt the

original

gear

out of chromemoly. Yes it is heavier than the aluminum gear, but I

won't

be

rebuilding the airplane every other year. Twice is enough. In

regards

to the

aluminum spring gear visualize this. Touch down on a rough mountain

strip and

encounter a gopher hole. I see bolt heads popping and the creation

of a

retractable gear. Yes, the Murphy demos have not had a problem, but

keep

in

mind who has been flying the demos. Robin hasn't made a lot of bad

landings

lately. A drop test is fine and strainght down it will come through

every

time. Try a drop test while encountering that gopher hole at 30 mph.

Food for

thought.

I do agree that the bungee gear is better, but only after mods. I

also

reinforced the fus between the front and rear attach point with 2"

square

tube.

No more wrinkling of skins in the door area.

I believe that any area of the airplane that is cause for concern

needs

to be

looked at really hard, as I have had problems with every area that

has

ever been

a concern. Don't consider that since Murphy designed it it must be

okay.

The

design testing is a result of years of use. More AD's will come and

go

as

weaknesses are discovered. Better to look ahead and visualize the

trouble

before it happens.

The float fix. That became apparent right away after the groundloop.

The

rivets sheared full lenght of the door post, the windshield

shattered,

the

engine almost left the firewall. I believe the nose area needs major

strength

mods. Just my own personal feelings. Created through experience.

Don't think I don't love the airplane. It is wonderful and I would

build

another in a heartbeat. What a joy to fly.

Dave Bangle

Bob Patterson wrote:

doesn't

there

!!

better

cheaper !

aircraft

--------------------------orig.--------------------------------------

(

Thanks

addition

to

diameter

a

good

you're

not on

the

intend

to

reinforcement?

went

to

'floatfix.doc'

which

could

get

Bulletin,

that

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Message-ID:
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From: "Morehouse, Daniel G" <DMorehouse@peacehealth.org>
To: "'murphy-rebel@dcsol.com'" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:40:31 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hello!

I have some .032 6061-t4, not t6. Will that be strong enough for the corner
wraps?

Cheers,
Dan
R280



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Received: from dbis.ns.ca (alpha-one.micro-optics.com [24.231.18.13] (may be
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:31:20 -0400
From: David Ricker <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
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Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
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Hi Dan

I just looked up the T4 vs T6 alloys in the Atlas Alloys (aluminum material
supplier) handbook and this is the information they have:

Tensile yield strength, psi

6061-T4 = 22,000
6061-T6 = 41,000

Tensile strength (fracture in tension), psi

6061-T4 = 34,000
6061-T6 = 44,000

The data says you will give up yield strength (by ~50%), so if I had to
choose
for my own application, I would use the T6. For this application in the
Rebel,
you could get a second opinion from Murphy based on their knowledge of the
actual loading of the wraps.

Hope this is helpful,

Dave R
Elite 583

Morehouse, Daniel G wrote:

hello!

I have some .032 6061-t4, not t6. Will that be strong enough for the

corner

wraps?

Cheers,
Dan
R280

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From: "Morehouse, Daniel G" <DMorehouse@peacehealth.org>
To: "'murphy-rebel@dcsol.com'" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 07:47:44 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thanks, Dave :-(

MAM did confirm that the T4 would be too weak. Anybody know of aluminum
supplier in NW Washington State?

Dan
R280

----------
From: David Ricker[SMTP:ricker@dbis.ns.ca]
Reply To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:31 AM
To: (Murphy Rebel)
Cc: ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float
reinforcement?

Hi Dan

I just looked up the T4 vs T6 alloys in the Atlas Alloys (aluminum
material
supplier) handbook and this is the information they have:

Tensile yield strength, psi

6061-T4 = 22,000
6061-T6 = 41,000

Tensile strength (fracture in tension), psi

6061-T4 = 34,000
6061-T6 = 44,000

The data says you will give up yield strength (by ~50%), so if I had to
choose
for my own application, I would use the T6. For this application in the
Rebel,
you could get a second opinion from Murphy based on their knowledge of the
actual loading of the wraps.

Hope this is helpful,

Dave R
Elite 583

Morehouse, Daniel G wrote:

hello!

I have some .032 6061-t4, not t6. Will that be strong enough for the

corner

wraps?

Cheers,
Dan
R280

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To: " (Murphy Rebel)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float reinforcement?
References:
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Are you anywhere close to Boeing Surplus in Kent?? I've bought tools and
other
small bits of aluminum there..

Dave
SR057

MAM did confirm that the T4 would be too weak. Anybody know of aluminum
supplier in NW Washington State?

Dan
R280

----------
From: David Ricker[SMTP:ricker@dbis.ns.ca]
Reply To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:31 AM
To: (Murphy Rebel)
Cc: ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Subject: Re: strengthening for O320 and spring gear; float
reinforcement?

Hi Dan

I just looked up the T4 vs T6 alloys in the Atlas Alloys (aluminum
material
supplier) handbook and this is the information they have:

Tensile yield strength, psi

6061-T4 = 22,000
6061-T6 = 41,000

Tensile strength (fracture in tension), psi

6061-T4 = 34,000
6061-T6 = 44,000

The data says you will give up yield strength (by ~50%), so if I had to
choose
for my own application, I would use the T6. For this application in the
Rebel,
you could get a second opinion from Murphy based on their knowledge of

the

actual loading of the wraps.

Hope this is helpful,

Dave R
Elite 583

Morehouse, Daniel G wrote:

hello!

I have some .032 6061-t4, not t6. Will that be strong enough for the

corner

wraps?

Cheers,
Dan
R280

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What area's in the nose area do you consider need more strenght?

Cheers

Alister

Back again on this subject.

While the strength of the nose has never been a question as far as I know, I
would like you to consider this.

The structure of the nose is cause for concern due to the now requested
strengthening of the attach points of it to the door frame and up by the
front
wing attach points. I experienced total failure of these points in my
ground
loop. All rivets on the right door post sheared yet the parts themself were
not even bent. The holes weren't even ovaled. Just cut off rivets. I have
(long before the AD) replaced the rivets with everyother one being stainless
steel. Much harder to shear. The nose itself came into question as the
side
force of the loop almost wrenched the engine off the airplane. In comparing
the structure to Cessna, there is no comparison. Side forces will be
induced
from time to time in the normal life of the airframe so I chose to
reinforce.

Maybe I overkilled the reinforcement, but here is what I did on the nose. I
increased the overlap of the side panels and the corner wraps to a full 2
inches and ran 2 rows of rivets. What a difference that made. But then I
backed each seam up with a piece of ST-31 that I made out of .032 material.
These run all the way back to the door post and rivet with the 3\16" rivets.
The motor mounts I backed up not only with the backing plate called for but
they also sit in a piece of this ST31 material. They also go back to
substantial material for termination with large rivets. The floor I created
a
triangle structure of the ST31. The brake mounts are backed up, the peddle
structure is backed up and all is carried back to the cage and riveted. The
top of the dash is the same, triangulate and tie to solid structure.
Probably
added 3 lbs in weight but the piece of mind load has been considerably
reduced.

Dave Bangle




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