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Float hard point fix

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:47 pm
by Walter Klatt
Ken, I'm trying to picture just how you applied these patches. You said you
did this before installing the inner floor, but I assume you are still
talking about putting these patches on the outside of the side skins? One
thought I did have was drilling out a few rivets above and below the
cut-out, and then inserting a patch inside between the bulkheads and side
skin, if I can squeeze it in without taking everything apart. Inside or
outside, though, I was thinking of just using one patch instead of two. It
will take some shrinking and forming to get around the compound curve you
mentioned. To avoid the oval holes, I may have to drill up to 5/32 rivet
size. In your case, did you use two patches on the outside because of the
change in surface height where the front corner wrap ends? I am not exactly
sure where you put your spacers. How thick was the spacer material? Any more
info or description here would be greatly appreciated. Any possibility of
uploading a picture to the archives? Thanks for your help.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
klehman
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:36 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Walter

I added exterior patches before the inner floor went in and it was still
tricky with the compound curve there and the four panels meeting at that
corner. I ended up with one patch on the forward bulkhead and another on
the rear partial bulkhead (about 1/8" overlap between them) and a couple
of spacers to allow for the different surfaces (heights?) of the
original panels. I figured it wasn't worth doing unless you picked up at
least 4 rivets on each bulkhead on each side of the cutout. And of
course if you end up with oval rivet holes it might be worse than doing
nothing.

Ken
"Walter Klatt" wrote:
This rear float hard point pucker factor that's been mentioned earlier,
though, has me concerned. So far
there is no sign of it on mine, but would like to fix it before it
starts. Sooner or later, I am going to
encounter real rough water. I had a look the other day on what it would
take to undo the floor and sides,
and I don't like the looks of it. I remember you mentioning that you
might try fixing it with a "band aid"
on the outside. I think I'll try that. A little paint touch-up is a lot
less work than ripping apart the inside. I
can see how those little C cut-outs in the bulkheads present a weak
spot, so if I put a patch on the
outside to cover them, maybe that will do it. Not sure of the exact size
or thickness to use, so Wayne,
if you do it to Howard's, please let me know exactly how you do it.



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Float hard point fix

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:47 pm
by klehman
Walter Klatt wrote:
Ken, I'm trying to picture just how you applied these patches. You said you
did this before installing the inner floor, but I assume you are still
talking about putting these patches on the outside of the side skins?
Yes. Waynes method is much better but it was going to be too much
dissassembly for me and it looked like dissassembling it would cause
some damage as well.
One
thought I did have was drilling out a few rivets above and below the
cut-out, and then inserting a patch inside between the bulkheads and side
skin, if I can squeeze it in without taking everything apart.
I couldn't do that as the panels were just too tight against the
bulkheads in the vicinity of the curved lower panel.
Inside or
outside, though, I was thinking of just using one patch instead of two. It
will take some shrinking and forming to get around the compound curve you
mentioned. To avoid the oval holes, I may have to drill up to 5/32 rivet
size. In your case, did you use two patches on the outside because of the
change in surface height where the front corner wrap ends? I am not exactly
sure where you put your spacers. How thick was the spacer material? Any more
info or description here would be greatly appreciated. Any possibility of
uploading a picture to the archives? Thanks for your help.
I will try to get a photo tomorrow. Remind me if I forget. I used 0.020
spacers to bring up the surface height of the lower panel. Otherwise the
rivets were not going to pull the 0.032" patch tight against the lower
panel. I wanted everything tight so it couldn't work at all under load.
I think that will be the challenge if you try to use just one large
patch - keeping everything tight with no air gaps. I also didn't want
any kind of step or wrinkle in the patch that would be a good place for
the patch to continue bending under load. Yes I have several 5/32"
rivets scattered over my airframe. Much better than a 1/8 rivet in an
oval hole. I also found that one can also get amazing results retrieving
the back half of drilled out rivets with a little 1/4" diameter rare
earth magnet. So far I don't have any rivet ends rattling around in the
airframe. As long as the magnetic steel end of the mandrel is still in
the rivet the magnet will grab them (and even walk them out from the
other side of the aluminum).

Ken




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Float hard point fix

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:47 pm
by Walter Klatt
Thanks Ken, that's great information. I look forward to your pictures. On
the weekend, I will take another look at this area on my plane. It sure
would be nice to fix it without taking apart the inside. Good tip on getting
those rivet ends out. I will have to remember that one. I have both .032 and
.040 left over material, and wondering if the heavier .040 would be better
to use for the patch.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
klehman
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 7:42 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Float hard point fix


Walter Klatt wrote:
Ken, I'm trying to picture just how you applied these patches. You said
you
did this before installing the inner floor, but I assume you are still
talking about putting these patches on the outside of the side skins?
Yes. Waynes method is much better but it was going to be too much
dissassembly for me and it looked like dissassembling it would cause
some damage as well.
One
thought I did have was drilling out a few rivets above and below the
cut-out, and then inserting a patch inside between the bulkheads and side
skin, if I can squeeze it in without taking everything apart.
I couldn't do that as the panels were just too tight against the
bulkheads in the vicinity of the curved lower panel.
Inside or
outside, though, I was thinking of just using one patch instead of two. It
will take some shrinking and forming to get around the compound curve you
mentioned. To avoid the oval holes, I may have to drill up to 5/32 rivet
size. In your case, did you use two patches on the outside because of the
change in surface height where the front corner wrap ends? I am not
exactly
sure where you put your spacers. How thick was the spacer material? Any
more
info or description here would be greatly appreciated. Any possibility of
uploading a picture to the archives? Thanks for your help.
I will try to get a photo tomorrow. Remind me if I forget. I used 0.020
spacers to bring up the surface height of the lower panel. Otherwise the
rivets were not going to pull the 0.032" patch tight against the lower
panel. I wanted everything tight so it couldn't work at all under load.
I think that will be the challenge if you try to use just one large
patch - keeping everything tight with no air gaps. I also didn't want
any kind of step or wrinkle in the patch that would be a good place for
the patch to continue bending under load. Yes I have several 5/32"
rivets scattered over my airframe. Much better than a 1/8 rivet in an
oval hole. I also found that one can also get amazing results retrieving
the back half of drilled out rivets with a little 1/4" diameter rare
earth magnet. So far I don't have any rivet ends rattling around in the
airframe. As long as the magnetic steel end of the mandrel is still in
the rivet the magnet will grab them (and even walk them out from the
other side of the aluminum).

Ken


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Float hard point fix

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:47 pm
by Legeorgen
Ken,

I would like very much to see your photos, of the float hart point patch, as
well. I too was not very excited about pulling the inside floor apart and
thought an exterior patch would be worth examining.

Bruce G 357R



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Float hard point fix

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:47 pm
by klehman
FWIW I have uploaded two small (7k) pix. Included a description with the
first one in Rebel Fuselage section of the files. For orientation the
rear half of the patch is underneath the edge of the forward patch.

Mike
Way to go on your new project and again thanks for hosting the list!
Also could you move the second photo from the Rebel meeting notes
section back to the Rebel Fuselage section where I was trying to put it.

thanks
Ken



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Float hard point fix

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:47 pm
by Mike Davis
The photo's been moved... you couldn't put it in the fuselage section
because the system truncates file names longer than 8 characters + the 3
character extension... this caused the system to see both files as having
the same name... and you can't have more than 1 file by a given name in the
same file area. I just renamed the file, then moved to the fuselage
section.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "klehman" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: Float hard point fix

FWIW I have uploaded two small (7k) pix. Included a description with the
first one in Rebel Fuselage section of the files. For orientation the
rear half of the patch is underneath the edge of the forward patch.

Mike
Way to go on your new project and again thanks for hosting the list!
Also could you move the second photo from the Rebel meeting notes
section back to the Rebel Fuselage section where I was trying to put it.

thanks
Ken

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Float hard point fix

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:47 pm
by Walter Klatt
Thanks Ken. A picture, or two, is worth a thousand words. Since I have some
.040, I will try that for my patches.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
klehman
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 6:44 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Float hard point fix


FWIW I have uploaded two small (7k) pix. Included a description with the
first one in Rebel Fuselage section of the files. For orientation the
rear half of the patch is underneath the edge of the forward patch.

Mike
Way to go on your new project and again thanks for hosting the list!
Also could you move the second photo from the Rebel meeting notes
section back to the Rebel Fuselage section where I was trying to put it.

thanks
Ken

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Float hard point fix

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:47 pm
by klehman
Hope it helps you decide what to do.
I used .032 only because it was easier to bend than .040.
Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:
Thanks Ken. A picture, or two, is worth a thousand words. Since I have some
.040, I will try that for my patches.



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Float hard point fix

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:47 pm
by Legeorgen
Walter,

Let us know how the float hard point patches work out for you.

Bruce G



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Float hard point fix

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:47 pm
by Walter Klatt
I sure will. I will be down to look at my airplane again on the weekend, but
probably won't actually do it for a while yet. I am just gathering info
right now, and would like to ask MAM about it too, before going ahead.
Weather is pretty crappy where I live right now, so won't be doing all that
much float flying in the near future.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@cs.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 6:32 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Float hard point fix


Walter,

Let us know how the float hard point patches work out for you.

Bruce G

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