competetive choices

[Mike Davis]

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From: jaime@borcim.wustl.edu (jaime dant)
Subject: competetive choices

Hi Guys,

I've been enjoying all your emails for many months for I am also where our
new friend (Tim) is in compairing kits.

I was rather excited about the Murphy Rebel until the price change last
year. These prices seem to WAY outpace inflation! Then I began to slow
down and look around more...

I found a real nice one here in Missouri (where I live) the CH 801 by
Zenith Aircraft. I am probably going to go with it or I'll just go with a
Cessna or J3 Cub cause the kit industry has gotten too pricey.

I am looking for a 3-4 seat puddle jumper with some cargo (dream on) or
just one with STOL (for fishing and hunting and pricey burgers) and
respectable range. You know, I want it all! Smile.

Anyway, I don't really see the Murphy Rebel as viable competition anymore,
however I do enjoy your conversations.

I sincerely hope that I am not coming across as insulting to you folks, it
is not my intent.

jaime


\
=============================================== I---|+
/
Jaime A. Dant
Molecular Microbiology-Box 8230
Washington University School of Medicine
St. Louis, MO 63110
314-362-3987
314 362-1232 Fax
jaime@borcim.wustl.edu





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[Mike Davis]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: competetive choices
Message-Id: <E0zYETH-0007aW-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 14:08:00 -0500


Glad you're still tuned in, Jaime ! Thought you'd given up long ago...

I'm surprised that you think the Rebel is too expensive -
it's only $14,815US , MUCH less than the Zenair 801 (at about $18,900++!!),
and more versatile, too... and easier to build :-)
(we're a <little> prejudiced !)

The Rebel was designed as a 3 seater, but there are at least 4 of
them near here with FOUR seats - the Rebel will carry the load (albeit a
little short of head & leg room in the back - but no worse than the 801!)
I was just looking at Tobey Riley's Rebel on the weekend - he has cloth
sling seats for the back - and his placard for max. baggage/passengers in
the rear says 420 lb. - that's TWO 210 lb passengers !! His engine is
a Lycoming O-235-L2C, of 118 hp. - the 801 needs 180 - 200 hp.

The Rebel also has a huge cargo area, so 2 adults can sleep in
the back, or you can haul 2x4's to that remote lake for a cabin !!

The STOL performance isn't bad - even with the Rotax 912, I can
take off & land in well UNDER 200 ft. !!

You can buy straight OR amphib floats for the Rebel TODAY - you
can't even GET an 801 kit, never mind floats - the prototype is up at the
Canadian factory being fitted with a Lycoming engine, and will need test
flying, etc. before it will be ready to market....

Maybe it's time to have another look at the Rebel !!

....bobp

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 12:20 PM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote:

Hi Guys,

I've been enjoying all your emails for many months for I am also where our
new friend (Tim) is in compairing kits.

I was rather excited about the Murphy Rebel until the price change last
year. These prices seem to WAY outpace inflation! Then I began to slow
down and look around more...

I found a real nice one here in Missouri (where I live) the CH 801 by
Zenith Aircraft. I am probably going to go with it or I'll just go with a
Cessna or J3 Cub cause the kit industry has gotten too pricey.

I am looking for a 3-4 seat puddle jumper with some cargo (dream on) or
just one with STOL (for fishing and hunting and pricey burgers) and
respectable range. You know, I want it all! Smile.

Anyway, I don't really see the Murphy Rebel as viable competition anymore,
however I do enjoy your conversations.

I sincerely hope that I am not coming across as insulting to you folks, it
is not my intent.

jaime


\
=============================================== I---|+
/
Jaime A. Dant
Molecular Microbiology-Box 8230
Washington University School of Medicine
St. Louis, MO 63110
314-362-3987
314 362-1232 Fax
jaime@borcim.wustl.edu

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[Mike Davis]

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From: jaime@borcim.wustl.edu (jaime dant)
Subject: Re: competetive choices

Thank you for your reply Bob,

Really! Perhaps I've got it all wrong!

I thought the Rebel was up to around $18,000 firewall back. Maybe my
discouragement was in adding the extras all up.??

I know I was a little miffed about the price of amphibs and engines (WOW)
but it looks like I was just plain off the mark. I do have to admit that
my evaluation has been from comparing web site info with the aerocrafter
that I bought a year or so ago and trade-a-plane.

I'm not too proud to say, I've got a bit to learn.

I'm glad I piped up. Time to evaluate.

jaime



\
=============================================== I---|+
/
Jaime A. Dant
Molecular Microbiology-Box 8230
Washington University School of Medicine
St. Louis, MO 63110
314-362-3987
314 362-1232 Fax
jaime@borcim.wustl.edu





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[Mike Davis]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: competetive choices
Message-Id: <E0zYHeM-0003tS-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:31:39 -0500


Thanks for giving it another shot !! The only 'extras' that you might
want, other than the standard kit, is the float fittings - and they're only
$105 US !! Wheels, tires, brakes, electric trim, both fuel tanks, and
even the epoxy zinc chromate corrosion proofer are INCLUDED now, in the
standard kit. (check the extras on the 801 ...)

There's not much Murphy can do about the cost of NEW Lycomings -
they just pass the cost on with a minimal markup. An O-235-L2C is about
$14,850 US !!!! This explains why the vast majority of Rebel builders
go to one of the overhaul shops - an L-2-C might run about $8,000 - 10,000,
and a used one as low as $4,000 - 5,000. This also explains why several
people are interested in Subarus and other auto conversions ...

Murphy 1800 Amphib kits are only $7,825 US, and the straight floats
are $5,020. This compares well with the Wipline amphibs, at $36,000 US !!!
Or EDO amphibs, at $43,000 US !! Or Montana Float Co., at $29,000 US !!
Don't underestimate the content & effort to build floats - amphibs are
almost half as much work as the Rebel !! They have over 10,000 rivets -
you're building a boat, AND an airplane ! Generally, it's a good idea
to finish the airplane first, then think about the floats. (We had one
builder who finished his SECOND straight float in 2 weeks !!)

The Rebel is such a good aircraft that it DOES command VERY GOOD
resale prices - about $53,000 US on wheels. Two sold here last year for
$63,000 and $64,500 on wheels, with O-235-L2C's, - both had 4 seats.

Let me know what other options you thought might be needed,
and I'll be happy to put together a complete price for you .

....bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 02:52 PM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote:

Thank you for your reply Bob,

Really! Perhaps I've got it all wrong!

I thought the Rebel was up to around $18,000 firewall back. Maybe my
discouragement was in adding the extras all up.??

I know I was a little miffed about the price of amphibs and engines (WOW)
but it looks like I was just plain off the mark. I do have to admit that
my evaluation has been from comparing web site info with the aerocrafter
that I bought a year or so ago and trade-a-plane.

I'm not too proud to say, I've got a bit to learn.

I'm glad I piped up. Time to evaluate.

jaime



\
=============================================== I---|+
/
Jaime A. Dant
Molecular Microbiology-Box 8230
Washington University School of Medicine
St. Louis, MO 63110
314-362-3987
314 362-1232 Fax
jaime@borcim.wustl.edu

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[Mike Davis]

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Bob

This is the second mail from you today that mentions 4 seats in a Rebel, how
about filling in some of the blanks?

I have only heard the factory position that the Rebel (or in our case, the
Elite) is a 3 person plane at most and with the rear seat turned around for
CG
reasons. Your comments seem to indicate otherwise, what is possible and
what
is practicle or what are the limitations? How about a discussion on this
topic?

Thanks

Dave Ricker
Elite #583

Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks for giving it another shot !! The only 'extras' that you

might

want, other than the standard kit, is the float fittings - and they're

only

$105 US !! Wheels, tires, brakes, electric trim, both fuel tanks, and
even the epoxy zinc chromate corrosion proofer are INCLUDED now, in the
standard kit. (check the extras on the 801 ...)

There's not much Murphy can do about the cost of NEW Lycomings -
they just pass the cost on with a minimal markup. An O-235-L2C is about
$14,850 US !!!! This explains why the vast majority of Rebel builders
go to one of the overhaul shops - an L-2-C might run about $8,000 -

10,000,

and a used one as low as $4,000 - 5,000. This also explains why several
people are interested in Subarus and other auto conversions ...

Murphy 1800 Amphib kits are only $7,825 US, and the straight

floats

are $5,020. This compares well with the Wipline amphibs, at $36,000 US

!!!

Or EDO amphibs, at $43,000 US !! Or Montana Float Co., at $29,000 US !!
Don't underestimate the content & effort to build floats - amphibs are
almost half as much work as the Rebel !! They have over 10,000 rivets -
you're building a boat, AND an airplane ! Generally, it's a good idea
to finish the airplane first, then think about the floats. (We had one
builder who finished his SECOND straight float in 2 weeks !!)

The Rebel is such a good aircraft that it DOES command VERY GOOD
resale prices - about $53,000 US on wheels. Two sold here last year for
$63,000 and $64,500 on wheels, with O-235-L2C's, - both had 4 seats.

Let me know what other options you thought might be needed,
and I'll be happy to put together a complete price for you .

....bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 02:52 PM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote:

Thank you for your reply Bob,

Really! Perhaps I've got it all wrong!

I thought the Rebel was up to around $18,000 firewall back. Maybe my
discouragement was in adding the extras all up.??

I know I was a little miffed about the price of amphibs and engines (WOW)
but it looks like I was just plain off the mark. I do have to admit that
my evaluation has been from comparing web site info with the aerocrafter
that I bought a year or so ago and trade-a-plane.

I'm not too proud to say, I've got a bit to learn.

I'm glad I piped up. Time to evaluate.

jaime



\
=============================================== I---|+
/
Jaime A. Dant
Molecular Microbiology-Box 8230
Washington University School of Medicine
St. Louis, MO 63110
314-362-3987
314 362-1232 Fax
jaime@borcim.wustl.edu

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[Mike Davis]

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From: "Charles Skorupa" <chucks@gte.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: competetive choices
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:33:46 -0800
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Seems to me I saw a Rebel at Chilliwack, the airport near the Murphy
factory, configured with four seats. It looked great. I think the
challenge might be more with headroom in the rear rather than a CG problem.
It would be simple enough to run the calculations with the factory specs and
see if things worked out, but I think I did that once and it was o.k. The
Rebel Elite configuration might give a tiny bit more headroom since they
raised the roof slightly to match the flaps/flaperons in the reflex
position. Seat belt attachments are a concern for the back passengers, but I
think there is sufficient structure to work out something. I suppose you
could even modify the fuselage locally to add sufficient head clearance
using supplemental structure and maintaining the integrity of the original
airframe, if you had sufficient technical expertise and fabrication skill.
Hmmm.....those bubbles the WWII bombers added for the gunners might make a
comeback yet. Of course, another option would be to remove the heads of the
rear passengers. Many passengers use their head infrequently anyway, so they
probably wouldn't miss it for the short duration of most Rebel flights.
Although that would have the additional benefit of reducing the
back-seat-flying comments, it would also pretty much eliminate comments of
glowing praise about the Rebel's astonishing performance. Can't have that.

- Chuck Skorupa -
Rebel Elite Taildragger S/N #500
-----Original Message-----
From: David Ricker <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: competetive choices

Bob

This is the second mail from you today that mentions 4 seats in a Rebel,

how

about filling in some of the blanks?

I have only heard the factory position that the Rebel (or in our case, the
Elite) is a 3 person plane at most and with the rear seat turned around for

CG

reasons. Your comments seem to indicate otherwise, what is possible and

what

is practicle or what are the limitations? How about a discussion on this
topic?

Thanks

Dave Ricker
Elite #583

Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks for giving it another shot !! The only 'extras' that you

might

want, other than the standard kit, is the float fittings - and they're

only

$105 US !! Wheels, tires, brakes, electric trim, both fuel tanks, and
even the epoxy zinc chromate corrosion proofer are INCLUDED now, in the
standard kit. (check the extras on the 801 ...)

There's not much Murphy can do about the cost of NEW Lycomings -
they just pass the cost on with a minimal markup. An O-235-L2C is about
$14,850 US !!!! This explains why the vast majority of Rebel builders
go to one of the overhaul shops - an L-2-C might run about $8,000 -

10,000,

and a used one as low as $4,000 - 5,000. This also explains why several
people are interested in Subarus and other auto conversions ...

Murphy 1800 Amphib kits are only $7,825 US, and the straight

floats

are $5,020. This compares well with the Wipline amphibs, at $36,000 US

!!!

Or EDO amphibs, at $43,000 US !! Or Montana Float Co., at $29,000 US !!
Don't underestimate the content & effort to build floats - amphibs are
almost half as much work as the Rebel !! They have over 10,000 rivets -
you're building a boat, AND an airplane ! Generally, it's a good idea
to finish the airplane first, then think about the floats. (We had one
builder who finished his SECOND straight float in 2 weeks !!)

The Rebel is such a good aircraft that it DOES command VERY GOOD
resale prices - about $53,000 US on wheels. Two sold here last year for
$63,000 and $64,500 on wheels, with O-235-L2C's, - both had 4 seats.

Let me know what other options you thought might be needed,
and I'll be happy to put together a complete price for you .

....bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 02:52 PM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote:

Thank you for your reply Bob,

Really! Perhaps I've got it all wrong!

I thought the Rebel was up to around $18,000 firewall back. Maybe my
discouragement was in adding the extras all up.??

I know I was a little miffed about the price of amphibs and engines

(WOW)

but it looks like I was just plain off the mark. I do have to admit

that

my evaluation has been from comparing web site info with the aerocrafter
that I bought a year or so ago and trade-a-plane.

I'm not too proud to say, I've got a bit to learn.

I'm glad I piped up. Time to evaluate.

jaime



\
=============================================== I---|+
/
Jaime A. Dant
Molecular Microbiology-Box 8230
Washington University School of Medicine
St. Louis, MO 63110
314-362-3987
314 362-1232 Fax
jaime@borcim.wustl.edu

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[Mike Davis]

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Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 08:46:09, -0500
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: competetive choices

Hello jaime!

What part of Missouri do you live? I am building a Rebel and would
offer a peak if you wanted to.
I live in Blue Springs. Just let me know.

Don



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[Mike Davis]

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Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:19:42 -0600
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
From: Jaime A Dant <jaime@borcim.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: competetive choices

Hello Don,

I live in St. Louis. Not too far considering that I drive to Toronto CA
every so often for training lessons (Schutzhund working dog sport).

I would very much like to see your project and speak with you about it.

Even though I am not in a hurry to purchase my kit (I don't have the room
to build it right now and it's such a large expense that I want to get it
right) I DO want to investigate different kits. The rebel sure LOOKS nice
from their web-site.

I am in the process of plotting the murder of a few deer this fall
(weekends) but after the holidays would be perfect for me.

How does that work for you?

jad

\
================================================= I---I+
/
Jaime A. Dant
Molecular Microbiology-Box 8230
Washington University School of Medicine
St. Louis, MO 63110
314 362-4987
314 362-1232 FAX
jaime@borcim.wustl.edu





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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: competetive choices
Message-Id: <E0zdRTf-0007NK-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:01:56 -0500


Jaime,
I know this was meant to be private, but...

Whenever you get to Toronto, give me a call: (905) 457-5238
We're just in Brampton, about 35 mi. NW of TO. There are 4 Rebels at
the airport we can show you, and a dozen or so nearby under construction.

If you are here on the right weekend, you could even come to
a Rebel Builders Meeting, or Builder Visit....

.....bobp
-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 11:19 AM 11/10/98 -0600, you wrote:

Hello Don,

I live in St. Louis. Not too far considering that I drive to Toronto CA
every so often for training lessons (Schutzhund working dog sport).

I would very much like to see your project and speak with you about it.

Even though I am not in a hurry to purchase my kit (I don't have the room
to build it right now and it's such a large expense that I want to get it
right) I DO want to investigate different kits. The rebel sure LOOKS nice
from their web-site.

I am in the process of plotting the murder of a few deer this fall
(weekends) but after the holidays would be perfect for me.

How does that work for you?

jad

\
================================================= I---I+
/
Jaime A. Dant
Molecular Microbiology-Box 8230
Washington University School of Medicine
St. Louis, MO 63110
314 362-4987
314 362-1232 FAX
jaime@borcim.wustl.edu

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[Mike Davis]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: jaime@borcim.wustl.edu (jaime dant)
Subject: Re: competetive choices

Hi Bob,

I would very much like to visit with you folks.

The training season has pretty-much come to an end (getting too cold for
the dogs, well actually for the owners) but I'll probably be heading your
way in the spring. I will contact you before I come.

The Kennel that I train at is in Stayner. I don't think that that is far
at all from Brampton...

jad

\
=============================================== I---|+
/
Jaime A. Dant
Molecular Microbiology-Box 8230
Washington University School of Medicine
St. Louis, MO 63110
314-362-3987
314 362-1232 Fax
jaime@borcim.wustl.edu





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[Mike Davis]

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From: NMFN98A@prodigy.com (MR PATRICK S DALY)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:12:59, -0500
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: competetive choices

Yes that sounds fine. Just send an E Mail. My son and I had good
luck on the first day. Happy
Holidays.


Don



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