The Murphy Builders Site

Well I'm finally getting the nerve to start riveting the flaps together
and have a few questions. I have readied that you use the epoxy primer
between all mating surfaces and dip the rivets in the epoxy also. Is it ok
to just use acetone to clean the surfaces and wipe with a clean cloth or do
you also have to etch the surfaces. What is the best method for measuring
out the epoxy and catalyst. I would thing you would use separate means for
each so that one does not come in contact with the other until you mix them
together. Next in dipping the rivets what type of contain is best to use
(small paper cup); when you do dip it is only the shank and not the head? Is
it advisable to corrosive proof everything with the epoxy primer? (I hope to
be on floats one day) One more thing I phone Murphy about the price increase
and was told that it was increasing by 6%; has anyone hear this or a
different number?
Thanks
Gary M
Through Adversity To The Stars
712R




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Using syringes it is very easy to get the ratio correct. As long as you
wipe the tips off after each use they will last quite a while, and you can
get them at any medical supply store.

I didn't hear what the increase is going to be, but it still prompted me to
get my butt down there and buy now rather than waiting until spring.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <flyguy@idirect.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 6:42 PM
Subject: Start Riveting

Well I'm finally getting the nerve to start riveting the flaps

together

and have a few questions. I have readied that you use the epoxy primer
between all mating surfaces and dip the rivets in the epoxy also. Is it ok
to just use acetone to clean the surfaces and wipe with a clean cloth or

do

you also have to etch the surfaces. What is the best method for measuring
out the epoxy and catalyst. I would thing you would use separate means for
each so that one does not come in contact with the other until you mix

them

together. Next in dipping the rivets what type of contain is best to use
(small paper cup); when you do dip it is only the shank and not the head?

Is

it advisable to corrosive proof everything with the epoxy primer? (I hope

to

be on floats one day) One more thing I phone Murphy about the price

increase

and was told that it was increasing by 6%; has anyone hear this or a
different number?
Thanks
Gary M
Through Adversity To The Stars
712R


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Gary; I used the paper "Dixie cups" when mixing the chromate, usually two
doubled up. I measured the goods using plastic measuring spoons. This way I
could make accurate small or large quantities depending on what I was doing.
The Dixie cups where placed in the center of a margarine container
surrounded with a rag. This was done -1/ so I wouldn't knock it over and 2/
I could put the lid on the container and stuff in the freezer if I did not
use it all up. What can I say "I'm cheap" Actually it will stay good for
several days after mixing this way.-Just let it warm up before use.
Sorry I did not make the meeting yesterday, I spent part of Friday washing
and preparing Rebel "652" for flying down. The weather did not co-operate as
you all know. I was going to drive, but as it turned out "Olga" my wife was
not well and I did not want to leave her alone that long. ( Does this get me
brownie points or what?)




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For chromating all the smaller pieces (control surfaces) I used the
syringes (from Lea valley tools) with out the metal tips and the little
plastic film canisters held in a couple of holes drilled into a 2/4 (for
stability). These and a cheep airbrush did the trick. Be sure to use a
breathing apparatus to protect your lungs. For the large surfaces I use
the small version of the regular spray gun.

O & B Johnson wrote:

Gary; I used the paper "Dixie cups" when mixing the chromate, usually two
doubled up. I measured the goods using plastic measuring spoons. This way I
could make accurate small or large quantities depending on what I was doing.
The Dixie cups where placed in the center of a margarine container
surrounded with a rag. This was done -1/ so I wouldn't knock it over and 2/
I could put the lid on the container and stuff in the freezer if I did not
use it all up. What can I say "I'm cheap" Actually it will stay good for
several days after mixing this way.-Just let it warm up before use.
Sorry I did not make the meeting yesterday, I spent part of Friday washing
and preparing Rebel "652" for flying down. The weather did not co-operate as
you all know. I was going to drive, but as it turned out "Olga" my wife was
not well and I did not want to leave her alone that long. ( Does this get me
brownie points or what?)

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Wray Thompson ...Rebel 306 ...home page http://wrayt.tripod.com/
My ICQ number is 29764664



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Gary wrote:

Well I'm finally getting the nerve to start riveting the flaps together
and have a few questions. I have readied that you use the epoxy primer
between all mating surfaces and dip the rivets in the epoxy also. Is it ok
to just use acetone to clean the surfaces and wipe with a clean cloth or do
you also have to etch the surfaces.

No need to chemically etch but definately roughen a bit with a
scotchbrite pad and then wipe with acetone till the rag stops turning
black. I usually cut a 6"x9" marroon colored scotch brite pad into 3
pieces.

What is the best method for measuring
out the epoxy and catalyst. I would thing you would use separate means for
each so that one does not come in contact with the other until you mix them
together.

I use two teaspoons (or Tablespoons) of the green resin in a baby food
jar. Then you can poor the hardener into the same teaspoon (or
tablespoon) and you've got a pretty good 2:1 ratio without much fuss.
Babyfood jars are easy to throw in the freezer. The primer will not
re-mix properly after a week or two but that is obvious and as
mentioned, it does keep in the freezer for at least a week.

Next in dipping the rivets what type of contain is best to use
(small paper cup); when you do dip it is only the shank and not the head? Is
it advisable to corrosive proof everything with the epoxy primer? (I hope to
be on floats one day)

You'll get the hang of this pretty quick but you just need a drop on the
end of the rivet. Too much and it will get up into your river pulling
tool. I usually use a little acid brush to spread the primer and to add
a drop of primer to the rivet ends. THe other thing is that it is way
easier to clean any excess primer from around the rivet head now rather
than later when you realize it has to come off before painting.

cheers
Ken




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Most of what you need to know has been provided by the other responses.
Just thought I'd expand a little. First, to verify, the surface must be
roughed up with something for the stuff to adhere. Scotch-brite pads work
very well for this. Once clean and roughed up you are ready to apply. 30cc
syringes work extremely well for me. With these, I can mix a 2cc to 1cc
batch for a very small part, or a nice big batch of as much as 30cc to 15cc.
My wife orders these for me through the medical office she works for but
mail order after a quick web search is available as well as local medical
supply stores. I usually get a number of uses over many days of building
out of a set of syringes (one for the epoxy chromate and one for the
hardener) before they get too gummed up to reuse. Just make sure the one
used for the chromate has a clear hole by moving the syringe back and forth
after emptying it. I use a plastic oil drain pan to mix in. I set the pan
on a small piece of wood on one side to tilt the pan and keep my mixture
against one side, then just mix with a small putty knife.

To apply I use foam brushes. By keeping my eyes open for sales I have been
able to buy hundreds of the buggers at about 10 cents a piece. The brushes
are also ideal for "dipping" rivets. I don't actually dip the rivets. I
just spin them carefully against the foam brush until the shaft is coated.
You get really good at this after a while. I put a handful of rivets into
my right hand, then I hold the foal brush with the same hand. Then with my
left hand I extract one rivet at a time from my right hand, spin it through
the chromate soaked foam brush, and place the rivet in the hole. Also, I
usually have my little piece of dowel with the hole in the end in my left
hand to aid in pushing the rivet into the hole. I found that it is actually
easier to place the rivet into the dowel after coating, then use the dowel
to push the rivet into the hole.

If I had it to do over again I probably would have coated the entire inside
of the horizontal stabilizer and elevator at least with chromate for added
float operation protection. As it is I only coated the mating surfaces. If
I were to decide to coat large surfaces, I would switch to the standard one
part zinc chromate and spray it on. Don't do this for mating surfaces
however. The epoxy chromate adds an adhesive quality that you want with
mating surfaces. Zinc chromate just gives you surface corrosion protection.

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Gary
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 6:42 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Start Riveting


Well I'm finally getting the nerve to start riveting the flaps together
and have a few questions. I have readied that you use the epoxy primer
between all mating surfaces and dip the rivets in the epoxy also. Is it ok
to just use acetone to clean the surfaces and wipe with a clean cloth or do
you also have to etch the surfaces. What is the best method for measuring
out the epoxy and catalyst. I would thing you would use separate means for
each so that one does not come in contact with the other until you mix them
together. Next in dipping the rivets what type of contain is best to use
(small paper cup); when you do dip it is only the shank and not the head? Is
it advisable to corrosive proof everything with the epoxy primer? (I hope to
be on floats one day) One more thing I phone Murphy about the price increase
and was told that it was increasing by 6%; has anyone hear this or a
different number?
Thanks
Gary M
Through Adversity To The Stars
712R


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Don't know where you are located Gary, but here in southern ontario we go to
the TSC store and buy our syringes there, from 49 cents to one dollar and
change. This store sells a lot of farm supplies, so go to your local farm
supply store, like a co-op, and you will probably find inexpensive syringes.

Peter & Monica
SR003

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <flyguy@idirect.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 10:42 PM
Subject: Start Riveting

Well I'm finally getting the nerve to start riveting the flaps

together

and have a few questions. I have readied that you use the epoxy primer
between all mating surfaces and dip the rivets in the epoxy also. Is it ok
to just use acetone to clean the surfaces and wipe with a clean cloth or

do

you also have to etch the surfaces. What is the best method for measuring
out the epoxy and catalyst. I would thing you would use separate means for
each so that one does not come in contact with the other until you mix

them

together. Next in dipping the rivets what type of contain is best to use
(small paper cup); when you do dip it is only the shank and not the head?

Is

it advisable to corrosive proof everything with the epoxy primer? (I hope

to

be on floats one day) One more thing I phone Murphy about the price

increase

and was told that it was increasing by 6%; has anyone hear this or a
different number?
Thanks
Gary M
Through Adversity To The Stars
712R


** To unsubscribe, send e-mail to list-server@dcsol.com with

**

** UNSUBSCRIBE MURPHY-REBEL in the message body on a line by itself

**

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**

** To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

**




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If the primer was sandwiched between two pieces of metal and protected,
meaning not exposed or structural, I just used a good quality self etching
metal primer from a spray can. It saved time and material not to mention the
health risks of two part epoxies. I didn't dip the rivets though. I did use
the epoxy where it was exposed because the color coat would wrinkle any non
epoxy primer it laid over. If you plan to prime the fuselage interior (I
didn't) I would have used the epoxy because it is tougher for ware.

Bruce G



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On 14 Jan 2002, at 11:38, Mike Kimball wrote:

surface must be roughed up with something for the stuff to adhere.
Scotch-brite pads work very well for this. Once clean and roughed up

Haven't been Scotch-briting, but I have been wiping down with
solvent. Scrubbing should make the epoxy stick better.

you are ready to apply. 30cc syringes work extremely well for me.

Very handy.

web search is available as well as local medical supply stores. I

Stock up the next time you're at Oshkosh or Sun 'N Fun. There's
usually someone at the show selling syringes in various sizes.

The brushes are also ideal for "dipping" rivets. I don't actually dip
the rivets. I just spin them carefully against the foam brush until

What I've been doing is mix up about 10-15ml or so of epoxy in an
plastic film can. They clean easily, and the epoxy can be capped
and stored in the freezer for as much as a week before it becomes
too thick for dipping. To dip, I pour a small amount into a bottle cap.

---
David Parrish




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I use small (30cc) plastic epoxy cups sold at local hobby stores. They're
marked in cc, tsp, tbsp, and ml. Just pour 10cc of hardener then fill to
30cc by adding 20cc of epoxy, mix and apply to mating surfaces with a 1"
trim roller. Store the excess in the freezer. I dip the rivets about half
way. Before chromating I clean with acetone, then scotchbrite, then wipe
with a clean cloth. I use acid brushes for places a roller won't go. Let the
leftover epoxy chromate dry in the plastic cup and you can peel it all out
in one piece a day later for re-use. I'm still using my original supply of
plastic cups after three years and I'm hanging the engine mount at this
point. You want to do what you can to minimize waste as the expoxy chromate
is fairly expensive, and mixing small batches means you can throw away a big
percentage as waste (ie lining the cups, spoons, brushes, and rollers).
Also, if you spray it be real careful about not inhaling the vapors. I hope
to be on floats some day as well, and am only chromating between mating
surfaces. Don't know about the price increase.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Gary
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 10:42 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Start Riveting


Well I'm finally getting the nerve to start riveting the flaps together
and have a few questions. I have readied that you use the epoxy primer
between all mating surfaces and dip the rivets in the epoxy also. Is it ok
to just use acetone to clean the surfaces and wipe with a clean cloth or do
you also have to etch the surfaces. What is the best method for measuring
out the epoxy and catalyst. I would thing you would use separate means for
each so that one does not come in contact with the other until you mix them
together. Next in dipping the rivets what type of contain is best to use
(small paper cup); when you do dip it is only the shank and not the head? Is
it advisable to corrosive proof everything with the epoxy primer? (I hope to
be on floats one day) One more thing I phone Murphy about the price increase
and was told that it was increasing by 6%; has anyone hear this or a
different number?
Thanks
Gary M
Through Adversity To The Stars
712R


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----- Original Message -----
From: "wrayt" <wrayt@sympatico.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Start Riveting

For chromating all the smaller pieces (control surfaces) I used the
syringes (from Lea valley tools) with out the metal tips and the little
plastic film canisters held in a couple of holes drilled into a 2/4 (for
stability). These and a cheep airbrush did the trick. Be sure to use a
breathing apparatus to protect your lungs. For the large surfaces I use
the small version of the regular spray gun.

Wrayt, when you used the airbrush did you thin it with E-500 epoxy reducer?
I did go to Lee Valley Tools, pick-up the syringes,and plastic cups.

Peter (SR003) I tried looking for a TSC store but could not locate one. I
live about 10 mins. northwest of Oshawa Airport, in Brooklin, Ont.

When everyone says to put the unfinished portions in the freeze; you mean
the freezer part of the fridge. Would not the epoxy freeze solid?

Now for the next dummy question. I prefer asking dummy questions then make
dummy mistakes. For the flaps an ailerons, when you join the nose rib,
spar,and rib together do all the rivits go in the same side or do you
alternate the side that the rivet heads are on? I guess this could be the
case of thinking to much.

Thanks
Gary M
Through Adversity To The Stars
712R





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Gary
Not at first ...I just used a bit more air pressure. The mixed epoxy
just gets a little bit thicker in the freezer ...I used our chest
freezer as our fridge doesn't have one ...long as it's cold enough to
slow the chemical reaction. If left too long it turns to rubber but pops
out of the plastic film canister quite easily for cleaning. If I thought
it was a little to stiff for spraying I just used it for dipping the
rivets.
I just put all the rivets in from the same side ...which ever one was
easiest to get the rivet gun to. ...Wray

Gary wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "wrayt" <wrayt@sympatico.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Start Riveting

For chromating all the smaller pieces (control surfaces) I used the
syringes (from Lea valley tools) with out the metal tips and the little
plastic film canisters held in a couple of holes drilled into a 2/4 (for
stability). These and a cheep airbrush did the trick. Be sure to use a
breathing apparatus to protect your lungs. For the large surfaces I use
the small version of the regular spray gun.

Wrayt, when you used the airbrush did you thin it with E-500 epoxy reducer?
I did go to Lee Valley Tools, pick-up the syringes,and plastic cups.

Peter (SR003) I tried looking for a TSC store but could not locate one. I
live about 10 mins. northwest of Oshawa Airport, in Brooklin, Ont.

When everyone says to put the unfinished portions in the freeze; you mean
the freezer part of the fridge. Would not the epoxy freeze solid?

Now for the next dummy question. I prefer asking dummy questions then make
dummy mistakes. For the flaps an ailerons, when you join the nose rib,
spar,and rib together do all the rivits go in the same side or do you
alternate the side that the rivet heads are on? I guess this could be the
case of thinking to much.

Thanks
Gary M
Through Adversity To The Stars
712R

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My ICQ number is 29764664



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Hi:

My 2 bits.
As some day I will be on floats in salt water I wanted to prime all the
skins. I used my wifes mixing spoons for quantity( of course she gave them
to me when she found out where they had been) There are priorities. She sort
of understood.
I cut the mix with acetone to spray.Used a touch-up spray gun.If you've
never used a gun make sure you don't plug the breather hole to the can. Bob
P. said to put on as thin a coat as possible. When I was at Arlington,
Murphy's plane was primed inside with a rather moderate coat. You could not
see through it. This does take time but who's in a hurry. Even though the
contact areas were primed, I still put a wet coat of primer on before
riveting together.Dipped rivets.Once I got going, I primed the whole inside,
dashboard, behind the dash, the whole nine yards.Adds a little bit of weight
so loose ten lb.

Good luck
Murray Cherkas
REBEL505




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Gary,
As a general rule, think about the future possibility of having to drill
out any given rivet. (You will!) That may mean that the head would best
be faced in a given direction for future access. As a tip, use one of the
spring powered "automatic" center punches to knock the rivet mandrel back
before drilling. That lets the drill follow the rivet bore and stay
centered. Good luck on the project. After a while things you find
difficult now and daunting will be simple. Persevere and always do the
best quality work you can do without compromise. We have all made parts
over.
Ralph Baker / Sue Scouten
Elite 624E (reserved)




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Well I tried priming some of the ribs today and used a foam brush to see the
effect. It was ok but I would like a smoother finish, it did however stick
to the surface of the metal very well. I have a 5hp,25gal oil-less air
compressure so I pick-up a small touch-up spray gun from Canadian Tire (4.5
SCFM @ 40 PSI), which I'm going to return because Home Depot has one for
$16.00 cheaper and needs only 2.5 SCFM. Wray you talked about an Airbrush;
is it the type of item you would find in a hobby shop or some other type of
store?
Gary M
Through Adversity To The Stars
712R

Hi:

My 2 bits.
As some day I will be on floats in salt water I wanted to prime all the
skins. I used my wifes mixing spoons for quantity( of course she gave them
to me when she found out where they had been) There are priorities. She

sort

of understood.
I cut the mix with acetone to spray.Used a touch-up spray gun.If you've
never used a gun make sure you don't plug the breather hole to the can.

Bob

P. said to put on as thin a coat as possible. When I was at Arlington,
Murphy's plane was primed inside with a rather moderate coat. You could

not

see through it. This does take time but who's in a hurry. Even though the
contact areas were primed, I still put a wet coat of primer on before
riveting together.Dipped rivets.Once I got going, I primed the whole

inside,

dashboard, behind the dash, the whole nine yards.Adds a little bit of

weight

so loose ten lb.

Good luck
Murray Cherkas
REBEL505


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