The Murphy Builders Site

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From: Dan Morehouse <morehous@az.com>
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Thanks for the info about front bottom
cabin floor orientation, although I
couldn't easily open your pic (not sure
why. I can read jpg's. Netscape usually
does it, and I also have a third party
graphic converter; neither worked).

I'd like to get some feedback on
corrosion proofing again. I understand I
can do it several different ways. I'd
like to some different ideas on this,
especially those related to operating
near salt water.

What I've done is treat just the mating
surfaces so far with a couple different
chromating type primers. The method I've
used for the most recent one
(PolyFiber's white stuff) is to alodyne,
then prime with a tack coat and two more
heavier coats, let dry and rivet.

I'm concerned about cost, weight, and
time if I were to treat all the
non-mating inside surfaces.

Look forward to your comments,
Dan Morehouse
R280






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From: "Alan & Deborah Paxhia" <paxhia@gte.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: corrosion proofing
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:48:54 -0700
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Dan, I am using the stuff that MAM provides with the kit to coat all
inside surfaces. I prep the surface using MEK, Alkaline soap, Alodine, then
the green epoxy primer. I made a frame out of pvc pipe and lined it with 6
mil poly plastic. It is important to control the Alodine rinse water and
not contaminate the ground water. So far I have 20 gallons of waste water.
If you don't like the alodine etch an other method I have had good results
with is to buff the surface with a maroon scotch brite pad in a palm
sander, then wipe with a clean rag. My estimated cost to do the airplane is
$400 US (2 gal primer, 2 gal reducer, and 1 gal catalyst. I spray a tack
coat and 2 or 3 light coats, let dry and still wet coat the mating
surfaces at rivet time. This is all in all a lot of extra work but I
believe a must for salt water float flying.
Al Paxhia
SR026



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Thanks, Al!

I got my kit 2nd hand and don't have any of the original stuff fluids (might
have been different than yours anyway). What is this stuff you spray?

I spray a tack

coat and 2 or 3 light coats, let dry and still wet coat the mating
surfaces at rivet time. <

Dan Morehouse
R280




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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: corrosion proofing
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Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 21:49:27 -0400


You're on the right track, Dan ....

Polyfibre Epoxy Zinc Chromate IS the right stuff to use - but you
should just brush it on both sides & rivet the parts WHILE IT IS WET.
The WET epoxy then cures & bonds the surfaces together, adding strength,
and filling the gaps.

Don't forget to dip the rivets in the epoxy, too... Just about
1/8" at the tip will likely be enough. Then put them in & pull. The epoxy
will seal around the rivet, AND be pulled up into it by the mandrel,
sealing the mandrel.

Don't dip too deep - the suplus epoxy will be pulled into your
rivet gun & glues the jaws together !! (don't ask ..... :-( )


....bobp

------------------------------------orig.---------------------------
At 12:47 PM 10/22/98 +0000, you wrote:

Thanks for the info about front bottom
cabin floor orientation, although I
couldn't easily open your pic (not sure
why. I can read jpg's. Netscape usually
does it, and I also have a third party
graphic converter; neither worked).

I'd like to get some feedback on
corrosion proofing again. I understand I
can do it several different ways. I'd
like to some different ideas on this,
especially those related to operating
near salt water.

What I've done is treat just the mating
surfaces so far with a couple different
chromating type primers. The method I've
used for the most recent one
(PolyFiber's white stuff) is to alodyne,
then prime with a tack coat and two more
heavier coats, let dry and rivet.

I'm concerned about cost, weight, and
time if I were to treat all the
non-mating inside surfaces.

Look forward to your comments,
Dan Morehouse
R280

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Bob Patterson wrote:

You're on the right track, Dan ....

Polyfibre Epoxy Zinc Chromate IS the right stuff to use - but you
should just brush it on both sides & rivet the parts WHILE IT IS WET.
The WET epoxy then cures & bonds the surfaces together, adding strength,
and filling the gaps.

Don't forget to dip the rivets in the epoxy, too... Just about
1/8" at the tip will likely be enough. Then put them in & pull. The epoxy
will seal around the rivet, AND be pulled up into it by the mandrel,
sealing the mandrel.

Don't dip too deep - the suplus epoxy will be pulled into your
rivet gun & glues the jaws together !! (don't ask ..... :-( )

....bobp

Thanks, Bob!

I have been dipping the rivets and pulling them wet. Do you do anything to
the nonmated surfaces?

Dan
R280




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From: "Alan & Deborah Paxhia" <paxhia@gte.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: corrosion proofing
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Dan, to answer your question:

I got my kit 2nd hand and don't have any of the original stuff fluids
(might
have been different than yours anyway). What is this stuff you spray?

The company is Poly Fiber, the product is Epoxy primer EP-420, Catalyst
EP-430, Epoxy Reducer E-500, METL-SOL C-2200 (MEK with other toxic stuff),
310 Alkaline Cleaner, Aluma- Dyne E-2300 is the chromic acid conversion
coating. Some builders use phosphoric acid to clean the aluminum, my
instructions say "Phosphoric acid is not for silicon bearing alloys" 6061
is a silicon alloy. After cleaning, mix primer per the Poly Fiber
instructions I also thin the primer with the reducer approx. 25-40%. I
believe this is the best corrosion protection, but read the material safety
data sheet (MSDS) on each product these products contain some nasty stuff.
Does anyone have later data on phosphoric acid and silicon alloys?
Al Paxhia SR026



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Alan & Deborah Paxhia wrote:

The company is Poly Fiber, the product is Epoxy primer EP-420, Catalyst
EP-430, Epoxy Reducer E-500, METL-SOL C-2200 (MEK with other toxic stuff),
310 Alkaline Cleaner, Aluma- Dyne E-2300 is the chromic acid conversion
coating.

Yeah, that's the same stuff I am using with the exception of the Alkaline
Cleaner. I have brushed mine on. You're spraying?

Dan
R280





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Dan, I spray first let dry, then wet coat all seams by brush, and dip
rivets using epoxy primer.
Al Paxhia



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Reply-To:
From: "Tim Carter"
To: "'Murphy Rebel'"
Subject: RE: corrosion proofing
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:32:10 -0800
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Hi gang:

I about panicked when I read below that Phosphoric Acid etch was not for
silicone bearing alloys, because I have used this method of prepping on some
of the more compound parts, like wing ribs, etc. I was worried that the
integrity of the material might have been compromised.

I called up the Poly-Fiber folks to ask why the warning...and it is because
the silicone reacts with the acid and gives off some gasses that are not
healthy to breathe.

I asked the tech at Poly-Fiber if it was OK to use their Phosphoric Acid
product (E2310 I believe, but am not looking at the bottle as I write this)
on 6061-T6....and he said as long as the bath was relatively short, say 5
minutes, and there was a thorough rinse, there would be no problem.

FYI...in case anyone else was 'worried'...

Tim
#438R

P.S. I bought my engine. O-320-E2D. 0 SMOH

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan & Deborah Paxhia [mailto:paxhia@gte.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 6:48 PM
To: Murphy Rebel
Subject: Re: corrosion proofing


Dan, to answer your question:

I got my kit 2nd hand and don't have any of the original stuff fluids
(might
have been different than yours anyway). What is this stuff you spray?

The company is Poly Fiber, the product is Epoxy primer EP-420, Catalyst
EP-430, Epoxy Reducer E-500, METL-SOL C-2200 (MEK with other toxic stuff),
310 Alkaline Cleaner, Aluma- Dyne E-2300 is the chromic acid conversion
coating. Some builders use phosphoric acid to clean the aluminum, my
instructions say "Phosphoric acid is not for silicon bearing alloys" 6061
is a silicon alloy. After cleaning, mix primer per the Poly Fiber
instructions I also thin the primer with the reducer approx. 25-40%. I
believe this is the best corrosion protection, but read the material safety
data sheet (MSDS) on each product these products contain some nasty stuff.
Does anyone have later data on phosphoric acid and silicon alloys?
Al Paxhia SR026










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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: corrosion proofing
Message-Id: <E0zXzSF-0002OG-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:05:56 -0500


Most builders don't do anything with the rest of the surface. For
extreme conditions, you could etch the surface & spray with the epoxy
primer. The spray coat should be light enough that you can read the
lettering on the aluminum - any more just adds weight, and, if it's too
thick, it will just crack & you'll get corrosion anyway !

There are several treatments you can apply after the wing is
finished - Northern Shield seems to be good. It is blown in as a fog,
using a special wand. The fog penetrates everywhere, then spreads out,
and hardens into a thin flexible waxy coating. Costs about $35 to do
a whole Rebel...
Some others are Boeshield, D-29, & ACF-50 - some better than
others - ACF-50 is messy, and drips out over a year or so.

....bobp
--------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 08:53 PM 10/24/98 +0000, you wrote:

Thanks, Bob!

I have been dipping the rivets and pulling them wet. Do you do anything to
the nonmated surfaces?

Dan
R280

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Patterson wrote:

You're on the right track, Dan ....

Polyfibre Epoxy Zinc Chromate IS the right stuff to use - but you
should just brush it on both sides & rivet the parts WHILE IT IS WET.
The WET epoxy then cures & bonds the surfaces together, adding strength,
and filling the gaps.

Don't forget to dip the rivets in the epoxy, too... Just about
1/8" at the tip will likely be enough. Then put them in & pull. The epoxy
will seal around the rivet, AND be pulled up into it by the mandrel,
sealing the mandrel.

Don't dip too deep - the suplus epoxy will be pulled into your
rivet gun & glues the jaws together !! (don't ask ..... :-( )

....bobp

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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:57:29 EST
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Hi Tim
The kit s/n is in the early 200's ,, so it does not have the one piece
windshield and if you wanted the spring gear you would have to buy that
also... it does have dual tanks ,,, float fittings and elect. trim...
All that was ever done on the kit was the four flaperons or about 20 hours
of
work.
He has about 250 cleos and air rivet puller and some misc tools.
Its not really on the market "for sale" but I think he will sell it ,,,as
he
wants to buy a factory airplane this spring.. The wing kit is stored in the
hanger at GEG and the rest is at his shop... but his house is for sale at
this time so he will have to move it into storage if his house sells..
At one point he was going to use it for part trade on an airplane the when
that didnt happen he said "some day he will build it" ... that was a year
ago.
I will see him on wed and ask him if he sell it and if so I will get you two
together
JimsRebel@aol.com



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Phosphoric acid bad?? Look at the contents of any Coke bottle!!! So if the
plane does not fall apart the stomachs will???? Just kidding . Paul Kucera
R453.





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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: RE: corrosion proofing
Message-Id: <E0zYEBx-0006Zz-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:50:05 -0500


Hi Paul !!

You ARE alive !! Glad to see you've escaped from work long enough
to join the comments. Hope we'll see you at the next Rebel Builders Meeting,
on Sunday, Nov. 8th - if the weather's good, we'll have a visit from "The
Boys From Michigan" !! Curt Martin & Bill Kelly, with their award-winning
Rebel !!

Take care !
....bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 08:31 AM 10/27/98 -0500, you wrote:

Phosphoric acid bad?? Look at the contents of any Coke bottle!!! So if the
plane does not fall apart the stomachs will???? Just kidding . Paul Kucera
R453.

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Bob,
I didn't know the next meeting was on Nov. 8th. I have arranged to escape
Malaysia and return to Toronto (via the UK) for a short trip. But, I will
be in
Toronto on the 8th and I will try and make it to the meeting.
Hope to see you and some Rebels there.
Philip
R518

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Paul !!

You ARE alive !! Glad to see you've escaped from work long enough
to join the comments. Hope we'll see you at the next Rebel Builders

Meeting,

on Sunday, Nov. 8th - if the weather's good, we'll have a visit from "The
Boys From Michigan" !! Curt Martin & Bill Kelly, with their award-winning
Rebel !!

Take care !
....bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 08:31 AM 10/27/98 -0500, you wrote:

Phosphoric acid bad?? Look at the contents of any Coke bottle!!! So if

the

plane does not fall apart the stomachs will???? Just kidding . Paul

Kucera

R453.

--
Philip Craig
Aviation Planner
Halcrow AirPlan
philip@airplan.com
www.airplan.com





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Received: from ccrouter.imax.com ([209.47.108.210]) by smtp.www.net with
SMTP id <97-3861>; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:30:24 -0500
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X-Lotus-FromDomain: IMAX
From: PKucera@imax.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (Murphy Rebel)
Message-ID: <852566B2.005F64B0.00@ccrouter.imax.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:24:53 -0500
Subject: RE: corrosion proofing
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Yes, still alive and popping....though very slowly.... Daniel, my 6 yr old
son is not interested in building airplanes...yet. I have been reading this
site for quite a while but I could not reply to it, now I can. It has been
very informative.
In the beginning I was making some mods (MAM approved) on my Rebel
which slowed me down. Now I'm just following the manual with the goal to
finish and fly the basic plane soon and add the "bells and whistles" later
as needed...if needed. For example, I'm not even worrying about wiring the
wing much, just make provisions to add wires later. Speaking on the
subject, I am thinking about running the strobe/light wires in a conduit
(alum tube) secured outside the wing under the top skin overhang at the
rear spar. The heated pitot tube plumbing and wiring (heated req'd in
Canada for night flight, see RAC, Annex) will have to be internal.
I recently visited a builder near Parry Sound who is just about to
hang the engine (0-320). I was alarmed to see the two upper tubes of the
mount just "hanging in the breeze", attached to the rest of the mount only
at one end. I could easily flex these tubes by hand. We thought that
perhaps this would become rigid once mounted to the engine but knowing that
rubber mounts are used here that theory was out the window. No way would I
hang a 300lb or any engine on this mount. Did this builder receive an
incomplete mount?
Anyway, I am enjoying the building and I hope to make it to the
meeting on the 8th in Brampton. Paul.




Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com> on 10/27/98 01:50:05 PM

Please respond to murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (Murphy Rebel)

To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (Murphy Rebel)
cc: (bcc: Paul Kucera/Imax)
Subject: RE: corrosion proofing





Hi Paul !!

You ARE alive !! Glad to see you've escaped from work long enough
to join the comments. Hope we'll see you at the next Rebel Builders
Meeting,
on Sunday, Nov. 8th - if the weather's good, we'll have a visit from "The
Boys From Michigan" !! Curt Martin & Bill Kelly, with their award-winning
Rebel !!

Take care !
....bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 08:31 AM 10/27/98 -0500, you wrote:

Phosphoric acid bad?? Look at the contents of any Coke bottle!!! So if the
plane does not fall apart the stomachs will???? Just kidding . Paul Kucera
R453.

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