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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:52:20 -0400


Have mixed answers with questions. Is this easier to follow ??
(see below)
-----------------------------------orig.-------------------------
At 07:10 PM 10/18/98 EDT, you wrote:

Hi Folks

I also have a few questions which are probably straight forward but I do

need

some help and/or confirmation that I am working towards the right numbers

etc.

1/ Best angle of climb info. Bob P. kindly replied and said that most

people

just use the 3 point attitude in order to measure 150% maximum fuel flow
requirement. ie. Can your system supply the fuel flow of max power at

best

angle of climb at minimum fuel quantities. In the Bingelis books, it shows

an

airplane with the tail in a trench to mimic best angle. Any thoughts?

***************************************************
If you wanted to raise the nose, I suppose you COULD build a ramp
of 2X4's about a foot high, and run the main gear up on that - easier than
digging a ditch ;-)
Canadian inspectors look for an absolute flow rate for Rebels -
I believe it's 32-35 gph (???). This is based on the diameter of the fuel
lines.
**********************************************************

2/ Material for engine baffles? 5052x 0.031"?

*****************************************************************
Almost any aluminum would do - it's not structural (although good
vibration (fatigue) resistance would be desirable). You can order a complete
set of Lycoming baffles from Van's Aircraft (the RV folks). They have a
supplier who makes a BEAUTIFUL set of complete baffles, all oversize at
the top, so you just trim them down to fit your cowling. Only about $110 !!!
****************************************************************************
**

3/ The mixer plate which takes the input from the stick and turns it 90
degrees and inputs the push/pull tubes for the flaperons is not

symmetrical.

The instructions make no mention of this and it could be installed 2

different

ways. i.e. The 3 holes that the push/pull tubes attach to are not at 90
degrees which indicates that there is a right and wrong way to install

them.

Has anybody notices this? If you lay the mixer plate out on paper you will
see that there is a difference when you trace out the shape and measure the
intersection of the lines you draw thru the push/pull centres.

*****************************************************************
Hmmmmm !! This may explain why a FEW builders have a problem
getting full aileron deflection in ONE direction with full flap !!!
Which bellcrank is this - the one opposite the end of the stick torque
tube, or the one mounted on the flap actuating arm ? Part no. ??
Several bellcranks have been revised over the years - might pay to check
if this is the latest version...
***********************************************************

4/ Several people have modified their flap mechanism as have I. Upon

reading

the excellent material from the EAA, it states that in order to have the

Rebel

pass the inspection, any significant change to the controls must be

approved

by the designer. My inspector last year made the inference as well. The

DABI

cannot OK this. Surely we can not expect Mr. Murphy to inspect all the
builders changes. What has been everyone's experience? How did Rick Ford,
Curt and Wayne Oshea etc. get their system passed? Appreciate the help on
this one. If I cannot figure it out, I will simply lock the system in

place

and have a flapless Rebel inspected. I did ask the factory this question

last

year and last week. Last year they simply stated that we recommend doing

it

per the book and declined to help further which leaves me in the soup.

Last

week when I asked the same question, they had no answer at all.

***********************************************************************
RAA* sells a very detailed manual covering inspections and paperwork
requirements - it isn't cheap, but it IS Canadian. There are many
differences
in the way things are done up here, and despite their best efforts, the
EAA Canadian organization may not be absolutely current. RAA actually runs
the DABI program. (*Recreational Aircraft Association of Canada)

DABI's only check to see that 'standard aircraft practice has been
followed, and standard aircraft materials used' - they don't want to make
engineering decisions.

While it is desirable to check with the factory regarding any mods,
it isn't mandatory. Murphy MAY insist that you register the aircraft as
a "John Smith Special", NOT a Rebel, if the modifications are extensive,
- to protect their reputation. (see purchase agreement terms)

As long as the flap controls can be reached & operated easily
by BOTH crew members, and they function freely, and give the required
range of movements, there should be NO problem passing inspection. This
is what happened with the other aircraft you mentioned.

Locking the flaps WOULD NOT help avoid problems with an
unsatisfactory mechanism - if it is installed, it COULD be used, and the
inspector would have to insist on complete removal. This would ONLY
be the case if the whole mechanism were UNSAFE !!
*************************************************************************

5/ In my firewall forward package, I received qty. 5, 1/8"NPT to 1/8" tube
nipples. I assume these are for the primer injector points. There is no i

nfo

on this and I do not know how this is normally down.

*******************************************************
Closest resource would be another Rebel Builder, or someone in the
RAA Chapter. (How about George Kowalenko? - he's done several engines.)
You could talk to an AME who works on engines - (Mikey ??).
Leavens engine shop might help, or the guys at AeroSpares might know
someone - if you can't find someone in the Chapter.
The primer line runs from the primer to each of the 4 cylinders, screwing
into the primer ports near the intake valves. These adapters would connect
the tubing to the ports, I imagine. You also need 3 tee's.
It would be hard for the factory to detail this, as there are many
different engines being used, and some prefer to prime only one, or 2
cylinders.
*****************************************************************

6/ Last question - Control throws - 8" up and down for the elevator.

Would

not more up elevator be desired than down for the landing flare? I can't
imagine needing full down elevator in flight. Rudder - 8" left and right?
Flaperon - 3.5" up and 3" down?

************************************************************************
This has been discussed often at Builders Meetings. I always check
before first test flight -
The factory says 25 degrees UP & DOWN - this is just a starting
point. =
Experince has taught:
Be sure you have AT LEAST 27 degrees of UP elevator (even 30 is OK)
Whatever is left over for DOWN is still LOTS. While you don't need full down
in flight, there ARE times (like taxiing out of deep snow or mud) when you
do want to lift the tail..

I thought the manual gave degree ranges for aileron travel -
doen't it ???
***************************************************************************

7/ Really the last question - On the Murphy tech support web site they
mention the change in the CG recommended location. I am not sure that it

only

makes reference to those aircraft equipped with floats or not. I seems to
recommend that the forward CG limit be reduced. ie. the forward limit is
farther back if you follow me because of a nose heavy tendency. Does this

not

also apply to those aircraft on wheels?

**************************************************************
The suggestion for moving the forward limit aft applies to ALL
Rebels -
ALL aircraft give <better cruise> with an aft CG - AS LONG AS it's within
the allowed range ! (Other handling qualities MAY not be as pleasant :-( )

For the test flight, it is best to have 1/2 tanks on both sides,
NOT full fuel, and 50 to 100 lb. of ballast TIED SECURELY in the baggage
area. Check the CG location for your Rebel in this configuration. If it
is slightly forward of the middle of the range, this is ideal for testing.
(MHO only :-) !)
****************************************************************

Sorry for all the questions. I probably should have asked them one at a

time.

****************************************************************
That's what this forum is for !! We all have to help share
experiences, and we all can learn.
I am always amazed by the brilliant solutions Rebel builders
come up with - simple & inexpensive !! (Like Jack Weibe's air vents !)
***************************************************

However I have asked all of these questions of MAM and I am still awaiting

a

response.

***************************************************
Sorry for their delay - they ARE training new tech support people,
and TRYING to improve. The best way to get a response is likely by
email - to tech support.... This will give the a written request, AND
time to consider their response - hopefully giving a better answer than
they could immediately on the phone.
*****************************************************

Thanks very much


Brian

********************************************************************

You're welcome !! Keep on asking, learning, and BUILDING !!
We want LOTS of Rebels flying along on the next 2 Rebel Rambles -
we Ramble to Winnipeg in 1999, as a warm-up for the big one in 2000.

Rebel Ramble 2000 goes out to B.C. again !!

Everyone is welcome to fly along - we've had everything from
Acey-Ducey's, Bonanzas, Champs, to Zeniths flying along with the Rebels,
so anyone can come, even if their Rebel isn't finished (or started!) yet !!

Good luck !!
.....bobp




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Reply-To: <tlcarter@msn.com>
From: "Tim Carter" <tlcarter@email.msn.com>
To: "'Murphy Rebel'" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: General questions - long answers
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:58:56 -0700
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Bob:

This e-mail brings up something I noticed...maybe you can help clarify....

When I had all of my tail-group set up on the workbench, I noticed that a
fair amount of up deflection on the elevators would cause the elevator horns
and pushrods to interfere with the rudder when deflected moderately left or
right.

Can you tell me...

From the horizontal, how much up and down deflection does the elevator
travel?
From the vertical, how much left and right deflection does the rudder
travel?

I can see that from my bench test, if I have a strong flare, with a good bit
of cross control, that one elevator horn will be precariously close to the
skinned surface of the rudder.

I have re-checked the alignment of my elevator horns relative to the
elevator itself, and they are as indicated in the construction manual.

Comments?

Tim
#438R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 9:52 AM
To: Murphy Rebel
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers



Have mixed answers with questions. Is this easier to follow ??
(see below)
-----------------------------------orig.-------------------------
At 07:10 PM 10/18/98 EDT, you wrote:

Hi Folks

I also have a few questions which are probably straight forward but I do

need

some help and/or confirmation that I am working towards the right numbers

etc.

1/ Best angle of climb info. Bob P. kindly replied and said that most

people

just use the 3 point attitude in order to measure 150% maximum fuel flow
requirement. ie. Can your system supply the fuel flow of max power at

best

angle of climb at minimum fuel quantities. In the Bingelis books, it shows

an

airplane with the tail in a trench to mimic best angle. Any thoughts?

***************************************************
If you wanted to raise the nose, I suppose you COULD build a ramp
of 2X4's about a foot high, and run the main gear up on that - easier than
digging a ditch ;-)
Canadian inspectors look for an absolute flow rate for Rebels -
I believe it's 32-35 gph (???). This is based on the diameter of the fuel
lines.
**********************************************************

2/ Material for engine baffles? 5052x 0.031"?

*****************************************************************
Almost any aluminum would do - it's not structural (although good
vibration (fatigue) resistance would be desirable). You can order a complete
set of Lycoming baffles from Van's Aircraft (the RV folks). They have a
supplier who makes a BEAUTIFUL set of complete baffles, all oversize at
the top, so you just trim them down to fit your cowling. Only about $110 !!!
****************************************************************************
**

3/ The mixer plate which takes the input from the stick and turns it 90
degrees and inputs the push/pull tubes for the flaperons is not

symmetrical.

The instructions make no mention of this and it could be installed 2

different

ways. i.e. The 3 holes that the push/pull tubes attach to are not at 90
degrees which indicates that there is a right and wrong way to install

them.

Has anybody notices this? If you lay the mixer plate out on paper you will
see that there is a difference when you trace out the shape and measure the
intersection of the lines you draw thru the push/pull centres.

*****************************************************************
Hmmmmm !! This may explain why a FEW builders have a problem
getting full aileron deflection in ONE direction with full flap !!!
Which bellcrank is this - the one opposite the end of the stick torque
tube, or the one mounted on the flap actuating arm ? Part no. ??
Several bellcranks have been revised over the years - might pay to check
if this is the latest version...
***********************************************************

4/ Several people have modified their flap mechanism as have I. Upon

reading

the excellent material from the EAA, it states that in order to have the

Rebel

pass the inspection, any significant change to the controls must be

approved

by the designer. My inspector last year made the inference as well. The

DABI

cannot OK this. Surely we can not expect Mr. Murphy to inspect all the
builders changes. What has been everyone's experience? How did Rick Ford,
Curt and Wayne Oshea etc. get their system passed? Appreciate the help on
this one. If I cannot figure it out, I will simply lock the system in

place

and have a flapless Rebel inspected. I did ask the factory this question

last

year and last week. Last year they simply stated that we recommend doing

it

per the book and declined to help further which leaves me in the soup.

Last

week when I asked the same question, they had no answer at all.

***********************************************************************
RAA* sells a very detailed manual covering inspections and paperwork
requirements - it isn't cheap, but it IS Canadian. There are many
differences
in the way things are done up here, and despite their best efforts, the
EAA Canadian organization may not be absolutely current. RAA actually runs
the DABI program. (*Recreational Aircraft Association of Canada)

DABI's only check to see that 'standard aircraft practice has been
followed, and standard aircraft materials used' - they don't want to make
engineering decisions.

While it is desirable to check with the factory regarding any mods,
it isn't mandatory. Murphy MAY insist that you register the aircraft as
a "John Smith Special", NOT a Rebel, if the modifications are extensive,
- to protect their reputation. (see purchase agreement terms)

As long as the flap controls can be reached & operated easily
by BOTH crew members, and they function freely, and give the required
range of movements, there should be NO problem passing inspection. This
is what happened with the other aircraft you mentioned.

Locking the flaps WOULD NOT help avoid problems with an
unsatisfactory mechanism - if it is installed, it COULD be used, and the
inspector would have to insist on complete removal. This would ONLY
be the case if the whole mechanism were UNSAFE !!
*************************************************************************

5/ In my firewall forward package, I received qty. 5, 1/8"NPT to 1/8" tube
nipples. I assume these are for the primer injector points. There is no

info

on this and I do not know how this is normally down.

*******************************************************
Closest resource would be another Rebel Builder, or someone in the
RAA Chapter. (How about George Kowalenko? - he's done several engines.)
You could talk to an AME who works on engines - (Mikey ??).
Leavens engine shop might help, or the guys at AeroSpares might know
someone - if you can't find someone in the Chapter.
The primer line runs from the primer to each of the 4 cylinders, screwing
into the primer ports near the intake valves. These adapters would connect
the tubing to the ports, I imagine. You also need 3 tee's.
It would be hard for the factory to detail this, as there are many
different engines being used, and some prefer to prime only one, or 2
cylinders.
*****************************************************************

6/ Last question - Control throws - 8" up and down for the elevator.

Would

not more up elevator be desired than down for the landing flare? I can't
imagine needing full down elevator in flight. Rudder - 8" left and right?
Flaperon - 3.5" up and 3" down?

************************************************************************
This has been discussed often at Builders Meetings. I always check
before first test flight -
The factory says 25 degrees UP & DOWN - this is just a starting
point. =
Experince has taught:
Be sure you have AT LEAST 27 degrees of UP elevator (even 30 is OK)
Whatever is left over for DOWN is still LOTS. While you don't need full down
in flight, there ARE times (like taxiing out of deep snow or mud) when you
do want to lift the tail..

I thought the manual gave degree ranges for aileron travel -
doen't it ???
***************************************************************************

7/ Really the last question - On the Murphy tech support web site they
mention the change in the CG recommended location. I am not sure that it

only

makes reference to those aircraft equipped with floats or not. I seems to
recommend that the forward CG limit be reduced. ie. the forward limit is
farther back if you follow me because of a nose heavy tendency. Does this

not

also apply to those aircraft on wheels?

**************************************************************
The suggestion for moving the forward limit aft applies to ALL
Rebels -
ALL aircraft give <better cruise> with an aft CG - AS LONG AS it's within
the allowed range ! (Other handling qualities MAY not be as pleasant :-( )

For the test flight, it is best to have 1/2 tanks on both sides,
NOT full fuel, and 50 to 100 lb. of ballast TIED SECURELY in the baggage
area. Check the CG location for your Rebel in this configuration. If it
is slightly forward of the middle of the range, this is ideal for testing.
(MHO only :-) !)
****************************************************************

Sorry for all the questions. I probably should have asked them one at a

time.

****************************************************************
That's what this forum is for !! We all have to help share
experiences, and we all can learn.
I am always amazed by the brilliant solutions Rebel builders
come up with - simple & inexpensive !! (Like Jack Weibe's air vents !)
***************************************************

However I have asked all of these questions of MAM and I am still awaiting

a

response.

***************************************************
Sorry for their delay - they ARE training new tech support people,
and TRYING to improve. The best way to get a response is likely by
email - to tech support.... This will give the a written request, AND
time to consider their response - hopefully giving a better answer than
they could immediately on the phone.
*****************************************************

Thanks very much


Brian

********************************************************************

You're welcome !! Keep on asking, learning, and BUILDING !!
We want LOTS of Rebels flying along on the next 2 Rebel Rambles -
we Ramble to Winnipeg in 1999, as a warm-up for the big one in 2000.

Rebel Ramble 2000 goes out to B.C. again !!

Everyone is welcome to fly along - we've had everything from
Acey-Ducey's, Bonanzas, Champs, to Zeniths flying along with the Rebels,
so anyone can come, even if their Rebel isn't finished (or started!) yet !!

Good luck !!
.....bobp





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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 05:32:23 +1300
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Tim,

I hope you dont mind me butting into your conversation with Bob, but I have
just been thru' all this.

On checking with Murphy they OK'ed my figures.

Elevator up 6"
Elevator down 5"

They did say 7" up would be better, but 6" is OK.

Rudder left and right 6"

Any more interferes with the elevator.

Aircraft flies like a dream!

Alister Yeoman yeoman@voyager.co.nz


----------

From: Tim Carter <tlcarter@email.msn.com>
To: 'Murphy Rebel' <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: General questions - long answers
Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 1:58 PM

Bob:

This e-mail brings up something I noticed...maybe you can help

clarify....

When I had all of my tail-group set up on the workbench, I noticed that a
fair amount of up deflection on the elevators would cause the elevator

horns

and pushrods to interfere with the rudder when deflected moderately left

or

right.

Can you tell me...

From the horizontal, how much up and down deflection does the elevator

travel?

From the vertical, how much left and right deflection does the rudder

travel?

I can see that from my bench test, if I have a strong flare, with a good

bit

of cross control, that one elevator horn will be precariously close to

the

skinned surface of the rudder.

I have re-checked the alignment of my elevator horns relative to the
elevator itself, and they are as indicated in the construction manual.

Comments?

Tim
#438R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 9:52 AM
To: Murphy Rebel
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers



Have mixed answers with questions. Is this easier to follow ??
(see below)
-----------------------------------orig.-------------------------
At 07:10 PM 10/18/98 EDT, you wrote:

Hi Folks

I also have a few questions which are probably straight forward but I do

need

some help and/or confirmation that I am working towards the right

numbers

etc.

1/ Best angle of climb info. Bob P. kindly replied and said that most

people

just use the 3 point attitude in order to measure 150% maximum fuel flow
requirement. ie. Can your system supply the fuel flow of max power at

best

angle of climb at minimum fuel quantities. In the Bingelis books, it

shows

an

airplane with the tail in a trench to mimic best angle. Any thoughts?

***************************************************
If you wanted to raise the nose, I suppose you COULD build a ramp
of 2X4's about a foot high, and run the main gear up on that - easier

than

digging a ditch ;-)
Canadian inspectors look for an absolute flow rate for Rebels -
I believe it's 32-35 gph (???). This is based on the diameter of the fuel
lines.
**********************************************************

2/ Material for engine baffles? 5052x 0.031"?

*****************************************************************
Almost any aluminum would do - it's not structural (although good
vibration (fatigue) resistance would be desirable). You can order a

complete

set of Lycoming baffles from Van's Aircraft (the RV folks). They have a
supplier who makes a BEAUTIFUL set of complete baffles, all oversize at
the top, so you just trim them down to fit your cowling. Only about $110

!!!
****************************************************************************

**

3/ The mixer plate which takes the input from the stick and turns it 90
degrees and inputs the push/pull tubes for the flaperons is not

symmetrical.

The instructions make no mention of this and it could be installed 2

different

ways. i.e. The 3 holes that the push/pull tubes attach to are not at

90

degrees which indicates that there is a right and wrong way to install

them.

Has anybody notices this? If you lay the mixer plate out on paper you

will

see that there is a difference when you trace out the shape and measure

the

intersection of the lines you draw thru the push/pull centres.

*****************************************************************
Hmmmmm !! This may explain why a FEW builders have a problem
getting full aileron deflection in ONE direction with full flap !!!
Which bellcrank is this - the one opposite the end of the stick torque
tube, or the one mounted on the flap actuating arm ? Part no. ??
Several bellcranks have been revised over the years - might pay to check
if this is the latest version...
***********************************************************

4/ Several people have modified their flap mechanism as have I. Upon

reading

the excellent material from the EAA, it states that in order to have the

Rebel

pass the inspection, any significant change to the controls must be

approved

by the designer. My inspector last year made the inference as well.

The

DABI

cannot OK this. Surely we can not expect Mr. Murphy to inspect all the
builders changes. What has been everyone's experience? How did Rick

Ford,

Curt and Wayne Oshea etc. get their system passed? Appreciate the help

on

this one. If I cannot figure it out, I will simply lock the system in

place

and have a flapless Rebel inspected. I did ask the factory this

question

last

year and last week. Last year they simply stated that we recommend

doing

it

per the book and declined to help further which leaves me in the soup.

Last

week when I asked the same question, they had no answer at all.

***********************************************************************
RAA* sells a very detailed manual covering inspections and

paperwork

requirements - it isn't cheap, but it IS Canadian. There are many
differences
in the way things are done up here, and despite their best efforts, the
EAA Canadian organization may not be absolutely current. RAA actually

runs

the DABI program. (*Recreational Aircraft Association of Canada)

DABI's only check to see that 'standard aircraft practice has

been

followed, and standard aircraft materials used' - they don't want to make
engineering decisions.

While it is desirable to check with the factory regarding any

mods,

it isn't mandatory. Murphy MAY insist that you register the aircraft as
a "John Smith Special", NOT a Rebel, if the modifications are extensive,
- to protect their reputation. (see purchase agreement terms)

As long as the flap controls can be reached & operated easily
by BOTH crew members, and they function freely, and give the required
range of movements, there should be NO problem passing inspection. This
is what happened with the other aircraft you mentioned.

Locking the flaps WOULD NOT help avoid problems with an
unsatisfactory mechanism - if it is installed, it COULD be used, and the
inspector would have to insist on complete removal. This would ONLY
be the case if the whole mechanism were UNSAFE !!
*************************************************************************

5/ In my firewall forward package, I received qty. 5, 1/8"NPT to 1/8"

tube

nipples. I assume these are for the primer injector points. There is

no

info

on this and I do not know how this is normally down.

*******************************************************
Closest resource would be another Rebel Builder, or someone in

the

RAA Chapter. (How about George Kowalenko? - he's done several engines.)
You could talk to an AME who works on engines - (Mikey ??).
Leavens engine shop might help, or the guys at AeroSpares might know
someone - if you can't find someone in the Chapter.
The primer line runs from the primer to each of the 4 cylinders, screwing
into the primer ports near the intake valves. These adapters would

connect

the tubing to the ports, I imagine. You also need 3 tee's.
It would be hard for the factory to detail this, as there are

many

different engines being used, and some prefer to prime only one, or 2
cylinders.
*****************************************************************

6/ Last question - Control throws - 8" up and down for the elevator.

Would

not more up elevator be desired than down for the landing flare? I

can't

imagine needing full down elevator in flight. Rudder - 8" left and

right?

Flaperon - 3.5" up and 3" down?

************************************************************************
This has been discussed often at Builders Meetings. I always

check

before first test flight -
The factory says 25 degrees UP & DOWN - this is just a starting
point. =
Experince has taught:
Be sure you have AT LEAST 27 degrees of UP elevator (even 30 is

OK)

Whatever is left over for DOWN is still LOTS. While you don't need full

down

in flight, there ARE times (like taxiing out of deep snow or mud) when

you

do want to lift the tail..

I thought the manual gave degree ranges for aileron travel -
doen't it ???

***************************************************************************

7/ Really the last question - On the Murphy tech support web site they
mention the change in the CG recommended location. I am not sure that

it

only

makes reference to those aircraft equipped with floats or not. I seems

to

recommend that the forward CG limit be reduced. ie. the forward limit

is

farther back if you follow me because of a nose heavy tendency. Does

this

not

also apply to those aircraft on wheels?

**************************************************************
The suggestion for moving the forward limit aft applies to ALL
Rebels -
ALL aircraft give <better cruise> with an aft CG - AS LONG AS it's within
the allowed range ! (Other handling qualities MAY not be as pleasant :-(

)

For the test flight, it is best to have 1/2 tanks on both sides,
NOT full fuel, and 50 to 100 lb. of ballast TIED SECURELY in the baggage
area. Check the CG location for your Rebel in this configuration. If it
is slightly forward of the middle of the range, this is ideal for

testing.

(MHO only :-) !)
****************************************************************

Sorry for all the questions. I probably should have asked them one at a

time.

****************************************************************
That's what this forum is for !! We all have to help share
experiences, and we all can learn.
I am always amazed by the brilliant solutions Rebel builders
come up with - simple & inexpensive !! (Like Jack Weibe's air vents !)
***************************************************

However I have asked all of these questions of MAM and I am still

awaiting

a

response.

***************************************************
Sorry for their delay - they ARE training new tech support

people,

and TRYING to improve. The best way to get a response is likely by
email - to tech support.... This will give the a written request, AND
time to consider their response - hopefully giving a better answer than
they could immediately on the phone.
*****************************************************

Thanks very much


Brian

********************************************************************

You're welcome !! Keep on asking, learning, and BUILDING !!
We want LOTS of Rebels flying along on the next 2 Rebel Rambles -
we Ramble to Winnipeg in 1999, as a warm-up for the big one in 2000.

Rebel Ramble 2000 goes out to B.C. again !!

Everyone is welcome to fly along - we've had everything from
Acey-Ducey's, Bonanzas, Champs, to Zeniths flying along with the Rebels,
so anyone can come, even if their Rebel isn't finished (or started!) yet

!!

Good luck !!
.....bobp

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In reply to your question, the mixer plate which is not symmetrical is
already
an upgrade from the original item shipped. It is the mixer which is bolted
to
the flap actuating arm. If they have changed again, meaning there is a
version 3, I do not know.

MAM has still not called back for over a week now, so I must assume their
policy is just to ignore the more difficult questions. I originally asked
questions over 2 weeks ago on the MAM tech support email system but received
no response. That is when I went to telephone route which has not worked
either. Sad I would say.

As far as flap modifications, the flap mechanism we have built could be
totally removed in about 10 minutes to cover any inspection problems. I may
do this just to avoid hassles.

Thanks Bob for the information on the manual by RAA. Is this different from
the Chapter 549 documentation, ( or whatever it is called). I don't mind
getting something like this if I could easily read and assimilate the
material.

Per the control motion deflection, they give you degrees only on the
flaperon
movement. However, in their tech support area under FAQs, they mention that
these numbers are only to ensure the freedom of movement of the entire
system. Actual control motion will be less. The "inches" of travel that I
mentioned in my previous email, are the numbers from their tech support
area.
These are not mentioned in the manual. But then again, as they remind me, I
have an early kit #328, and therefore probably not up to date in several
respects whatever that means.

I also cannot recall if I asked the question about the tailskid. MAM
mentioned that they are disappointed with the composite tail skid and are
not
shipping it anymore. They are not shipping a skid which is narrower and
does
not fit my tailwheel or attach point. Any comments on the original skid?

Last comment, could you please tell me what the range for the CG now is.

Thanks again for taking all the time to answer my questions. As I have said
before, a number of fine people are helping me on this project and I feel I
have the responsibility to make a fine example of a Murphy product with or
without MAM's help.



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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:01:54 +1300
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Hi Brian,

I assume you are talking to me! I am still trying to work out who is
talking to who here and how to post a reply. My name is Alister from New
Zealand, I have got an 0-320 Rebel #513 which I have got into the air just
a few weeks ago.

I dropped in the info regarding the control movements hoping it may help,
having just been thru' the exercise, yes, the measurements don't match the
info on the web site, those movements on the elevator and rudder are
impossible to achieve.

I have been watching this site for a while and on occasions reckon I could
help out, I hope you don't mind.

Cheers.

Alister Yeoman e-mail yeoman@voyager.co.nz

----------

From: RebelAir@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 4:28 PM

Thanks for the information. Somehow I did not receive your email. My

name is

Brian and I have been talking with Bob on this issue.

The numbers which you state are less than those posted on their web site.
Interesting that they are changing their data.

Thanks very much for your input.

Brian #328

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Hello There Alister

We certainly 'do not mind' hearing from anyone regarding Rebel issues. The
builder's group has made it possible for me to get where I am on this
project
and I know I would not have gotten anywhere close to completion without all
the valuable help from many talented builders. Together we can make better
airplanes and make MAM more successful as well which is good for all
builders
of their products.

Your information was most helpful regarding control deflections as the
manual
as you know says very little on any control movements whether it be rudder,
flaps etc. Del just mentioned that there was very little movement on his
flaps during flight which confirms comments of several others with regard to
the flaps.

Our heartiest congratulations on your first flight of your 0320 Rebel. I am
installing the same engine and I know we would all love to hear more details
of your building experiences, flight data etc. etc. What was your cruise
speed, stall, landing speeds, empty weight, modifications etc. if any to
your
aircraft and how did you get it done so fast?

Hope to hear from you again.

All the best!


Brian #328




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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 08:39:41 +1300
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Hello again Brian,

I'm pleased that I could be of some help.

Yes, I know what you mean regarding looking for performance data regarding
the aircraft while you are still building, I was just the same! I guess we
are all hoping that the aircraft will be up to expectations.

I can assure you that in my case it definitely was up to expectations, the
aircraft is a delight to fly and only after a few hours you feel completely
at home in it.

I am running at this stage a 150hp 0-320 and a Sensenich 74-58 prop.

Cruise is around 110 kts. at about 2450rpm. If the air is a little rough I
pull the power back to the rough air speed at about 103 Kts.

It climbs like a home sick angel, solo about 1500fmp and all up
1100-1200fpm.

It flys very much like Super Cub in slow flight and my 50 Kt approaches are
still way too fast. The Flaperons appear to be very effective at assisting
the take off run but they are not my favorite piece of equipment for
landing, OK in smooth conditions but a bit of a handful in gusty
conditions, heavy aileron pressures and adverse yaw etc.

Its got heaps and heaps of room inside and with the clear doors and
streamline cowl has tremendous visibility. One thing that caught me
completely by surprise when I first flew it was the nose down attitude in
the cruise, you can see directly down in front, its almost like being in a
helicopter---well almost!

At all up weight stall clean no power is a little under 40 Kts with full
flaperon you can take 4 Kts off that, and with say 1700rpm it will be down
indicated at 31 Kts, you can get a little bit of a wing drop either way
with that one.

I have done a few mods to mine, one was the flaperon lever which I think is
a weak spot in the design, I designed my own which I think is a big
improvement, If I can work out how to place a picture over this dammed
computer I might just do that if anyone is interested.

The other mod was a moving back of the pilots seating position. Because the
firewall was cut back 3" the rudder pedals had to be moved back as well to
allow full movement, this changed the relativity of the distance between
the rudders and the control stick. To over come this I bent up another
control stick to position the hand grip 3" further back and also built a
standoff for the throttle, mixture, carbheat and trim control etc. to
postion them 3" further aft.

The net affect is a seating position for myself ( I am just over 6') that I
estimate for C of G purposes is 23" aft of the Datum. So I am sitting well
back which I really enjoy with the clear doors it gives amazing vis. and as
I have already stated vis over the nose is not a problem.

I have the spring gear and headliner kit, the aircraft is probably a little
heavy at 989lbs and has a C of G og 10.23".

I haven't added up my hours but I probably spent about 1500 hrs in the
workshop over a two year period, I have to admit I was pretty focused on
the job.

I will try and get some photos on the net somehow.

I hope this helps with the motivation, stick with it, believe me it is a
real ball to fly!!

Cheers.

Alister Yeoman e-mail yeoman@voyager.co.nz
----------

From: RebelAir@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Date: Saturday, October 24, 1998 4:26 PM

Hello There Alister

We certainly 'do not mind' hearing from anyone regarding Rebel issues.

The

builder's group has made it possible for me to get where I am on this

project

and I know I would not have gotten anywhere close to completion without

all

the valuable help from many talented builders. Together we can make

better

airplanes and make MAM more successful as well which is good for all

builders

of their products.

Your information was most helpful regarding control deflections as the

manual

as you know says very little on any control movements whether it be

rudder,

flaps etc. Del just mentioned that there was very little movement on his
flaps during flight which confirms comments of several others with regard

to

the flaps.

Our heartiest congratulations on your first flight of your 0320 Rebel. I

am

installing the same engine and I know we would all love to hear more

details

of your building experiences, flight data etc. etc. What was your cruise
speed, stall, landing speeds, empty weight, modifications etc. if any to

your

aircraft and how did you get it done so fast?

Hope to hear from you again.

All the best!


Brian #328

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Message-Id: <E0zXFfz-00038e-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 22:13:04 -0400


THANK YOU AGAIN !! This is EXACTLY the kind of thing everybody is
looking for !!

Interesting you mention the flap lever - I agree - the standard
flat bar IS not pleasant to use !! Most of the builders here have gone to
an "L" shaped handle, with about a 45 degree dogleg about half way down.
It just makes it SO much easier to pull at the full-flap position...

One of our builders makes a set of carved oak grips for the flap
handle & sticks ($35/set) - a popular addition. He includes a template
for the dog-leg handle, too.

Like you, I use full flapperon for takeoff (it just hops up !!).
I also prefer to use full flapperon for landing, even in strong, gusty
conditions - I guess i don't mind the higher control forces as much, and
consider it a good trade-off for the VERY slow touchdown speed. My approach
technique is quite different, though. I prefer to approach high (old glider
pilot !), then use full flap & descend quite steeply at 70-75 mph. This gets
me through wind gradients with a great safety margin, and the extra speed
gives a little more float to fine-tune the attitude for a good touchdown -
the extra speed bleeds off very quickly with all that flap down !

Do you have skylights ?? I LOVE mine - can't have too much
visibility !! (old glider pilot-again ! (still ;-) )

The extra notch of negative flap might help your ride in the
rough air....

The Rebel climbs very nicely in thermals, and it loves mountain
waves !! Are you in a location where you can try them ?? Several gliders
have flown the full length of New Zealand in wave.

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------
At 08:39 AM 10/24/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hello again Brian,

I'm pleased that I could be of some help.

Yes, I know what you mean regarding looking for performance data regarding
the aircraft while you are still building, I was just the same! I guess we
are all hoping that the aircraft will be up to expectations.

I can assure you that in my case it definitely was up to expectations, the
aircraft is a delight to fly and only after a few hours you feel completely
at home in it.

I am running at this stage a 150hp 0-320 and a Sensenich 74-58 prop.

Cruise is around 110 kts. at about 2450rpm. If the air is a little rough I
pull the power back to the rough air speed at about 103 Kts.

It climbs like a home sick angel, solo about 1500fmp and all up
1100-1200fpm.

It flys very much like Super Cub in slow flight and my 50 Kt approaches are
still way too fast. The Flaperons appear to be very effective at assisting
the take off run but they are not my favorite piece of equipment for
landing, OK in smooth conditions but a bit of a handful in gusty
conditions, heavy aileron pressures and adverse yaw etc.

Its got heaps and heaps of room inside and with the clear doors and
streamline cowl has tremendous visibility. One thing that caught me
completely by surprise when I first flew it was the nose down attitude in
the cruise, you can see directly down in front, its almost like being in a
helicopter---well almost!

At all up weight stall clean no power is a little under 40 Kts with full
flaperon you can take 4 Kts off that, and with say 1700rpm it will be down
indicated at 31 Kts, you can get a little bit of a wing drop either way
with that one.

I have done a few mods to mine, one was the flaperon lever which I think is
a weak spot in the design, I designed my own which I think is a big
improvement, If I can work out how to place a picture over this dammed
computer I might just do that if anyone is interested.

The other mod was a moving back of the pilots seating position. Because the
firewall was cut back 3" the rudder pedals had to be moved back as well to
allow full movement, this changed the relativity of the distance between
the rudders and the control stick. To over come this I bent up another
control stick to position the hand grip 3" further back and also built a
standoff for the throttle, mixture, carbheat and trim control etc. to
postion them 3" further aft.

The net affect is a seating position for myself ( I am just over 6') that I
estimate for C of G purposes is 23" aft of the Datum. So I am sitting well
back which I really enjoy with the clear doors it gives amazing vis. and as
I have already stated vis over the nose is not a problem.

I have the spring gear and headliner kit, the aircraft is probably a little
heavy at 989lbs and has a C of G og 10.23".

I haven't added up my hours but I probably spent about 1500 hrs in the
workshop over a two year period, I have to admit I was pretty focused on
the job.

I will try and get some photos on the net somehow.

I hope this helps with the motivation, stick with it, believe me it is a
real ball to fly!!

Cheers.

Alister Yeoman e-mail yeoman@voyager.co.nz
----------

From: RebelAir@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Date: Saturday, October 24, 1998 4:26 PM

Hello There Alister

We certainly 'do not mind' hearing from anyone regarding Rebel issues.

The

builder's group has made it possible for me to get where I am on this

project

and I know I would not have gotten anywhere close to completion without

all

the valuable help from many talented builders. Together we can make

better

airplanes and make MAM more successful as well which is good for all

builders

of their products.

Your information was most helpful regarding control deflections as the

manual

as you know says very little on any control movements whether it be

rudder,

flaps etc. Del just mentioned that there was very little movement on his
flaps during flight which confirms comments of several others with regard

to

the flaps.

Our heartiest congratulations on your first flight of your 0320 Rebel. I

am

installing the same engine and I know we would all love to hear more

details

of your building experiences, flight data etc. etc. What was your cruise
speed, stall, landing speeds, empty weight, modifications etc. if any to

your

aircraft and how did you get it done so fast?

Hope to hear from you again.

All the best!


Brian #328

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Message-Id: <E0zXFJD-0002cc-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 21:49:32 -0400


Hi Alister !

Sorry for the confusion - I think I called you Tim ....

Thank you for contributing the measurements - we ALL need the
input, so don't be shy about chipping in with comments !

Glad to hear you're happy with your Rebel. What engine did you
use ?? Is it as hard to get a Rebel registered in NZ as it is in OZ ??
(Hear it just got easier there (OZ) now ....)

....bobp

------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 12:01 PM 10/22/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hi Brian,

I assume you are talking to me! I am still trying to work out who is
talking to who here and how to post a reply. My name is Alister from New
Zealand, I have got an 0-320 Rebel #513 which I have got into the air just
a few weeks ago.

I dropped in the info regarding the control movements hoping it may help,
having just been thru' the exercise, yes, the measurements don't match the
info on the web site, those movements on the elevator and rudder are
impossible to achieve.

I have been watching this site for a while and on occasions reckon I could
help out, I hope you don't mind.

Cheers.

Alister Yeoman e-mail yeoman@voyager.co.nz

----------

From: RebelAir@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 4:28 PM

Thanks for the information. Somehow I did not receive your email. My

name is

Brian and I have been talking with Bob on this issue.

The numbers which you state are less than those posted on their web site.
Interesting that they are changing their data.

Thanks very much for your input.

Brian #328

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 07:18:32 +1300
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Hi Bob,

Well, you learn something every day! Full flap for take off! I have only
been using 2 notches.

Your approaches sound like they make a lot of sense, Have you ever flown a
Polish Wilga? Thats the approach to use with them and it works very well, I
can't wait for the weather to clear so I can give that method a go.

How many degrees positive and negative do you have on your flaperons?

Do you prefer the wheeler or three point landing?

Yes I have 4 skylights on both sides and they can be very useful, the other
day I had some air to air photos done and they came in extremely helpful
when we wanted to get some shots from above, I used the skylights to tuck
myself under the camera ship-- neat fun.

I am in the south island where most of the really good gliding is and I
have already found out how the Rebel is in good conditions, its a great
little flyer!

The system for homebuilts here in NZ is now the experimental one very
similar to that in the States so it is no problem at all to get up and
running.

Thanks for the clues on how to fly this thing --- I need all the help I can
get!!

Cheers

Alister. yeoman@voyager.co.nz



----------

From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Date: Sunday, October 25, 1998 3:13 PM


THANK YOU AGAIN !! This is EXACTLY the kind of thing everybody

is

looking for !!

Interesting you mention the flap lever - I agree - the standard
flat bar IS not pleasant to use !! Most of the builders here have gone

to

an "L" shaped handle, with about a 45 degree dogleg about half way down.
It just makes it SO much easier to pull at the full-flap position...

One of our builders makes a set of carved oak grips for the flap
handle & sticks ($35/set) - a popular addition. He includes a template
for the dog-leg handle, too.

Like you, I use full flapperon for takeoff (it just hops up !!).
I also prefer to use full flapperon for landing, even in strong, gusty
conditions - I guess i don't mind the higher control forces as much, and
consider it a good trade-off for the VERY slow touchdown speed. My

approach

technique is quite different, though. I prefer to approach high (old

glider

pilot !), then use full flap & descend quite steeply at 70-75 mph. This

gets

me through wind gradients with a great safety margin, and the extra speed
gives a little more float to fine-tune the attitude for a good touchdown

-

the extra speed bleeds off very quickly with all that flap down !

Do you have skylights ?? I LOVE mine - can't have too much
visibility !! (old glider pilot-again ! (still ;-) )

The extra notch of negative flap might help your ride in the
rough air....

The Rebel climbs very nicely in thermals, and it loves mountain
waves !! Are you in a location where you can try them ?? Several gliders
have flown the full length of New Zealand in wave.

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------
At 08:39 AM 10/24/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hello again Brian,

I'm pleased that I could be of some help.

Yes, I know what you mean regarding looking for performance data

regarding

the aircraft while you are still building, I was just the same! I guess

we

are all hoping that the aircraft will be up to expectations.

I can assure you that in my case it definitely was up to expectations,

the

aircraft is a delight to fly and only after a few hours you feel

completely

at home in it.

I am running at this stage a 150hp 0-320 and a Sensenich 74-58 prop.

Cruise is around 110 kts. at about 2450rpm. If the air is a little rough

I

pull the power back to the rough air speed at about 103 Kts.

It climbs like a home sick angel, solo about 1500fmp and all up
1100-1200fpm.

It flys very much like Super Cub in slow flight and my 50 Kt approaches

are

still way too fast. The Flaperons appear to be very effective at

assisting

the take off run but they are not my favorite piece of equipment for
landing, OK in smooth conditions but a bit of a handful in gusty
conditions, heavy aileron pressures and adverse yaw etc.

Its got heaps and heaps of room inside and with the clear doors and
streamline cowl has tremendous visibility. One thing that caught me
completely by surprise when I first flew it was the nose down attitude

in

the cruise, you can see directly down in front, its almost like being in

a

helicopter---well almost!

At all up weight stall clean no power is a little under 40 Kts with full
flaperon you can take 4 Kts off that, and with say 1700rpm it will be

down

indicated at 31 Kts, you can get a little bit of a wing drop either way
with that one.

I have done a few mods to mine, one was the flaperon lever which I think

is

a weak spot in the design, I designed my own which I think is a big
improvement, If I can work out how to place a picture over this dammed
computer I might just do that if anyone is interested.

The other mod was a moving back of the pilots seating position. Because

the

firewall was cut back 3" the rudder pedals had to be moved back as well

to

allow full movement, this changed the relativity of the distance between
the rudders and the control stick. To over come this I bent up another
control stick to position the hand grip 3" further back and also built a
standoff for the throttle, mixture, carbheat and trim control etc. to
postion them 3" further aft.

The net affect is a seating position for myself ( I am just over 6')

that I

estimate for C of G purposes is 23" aft of the Datum. So I am sitting

well

back which I really enjoy with the clear doors it gives amazing vis. and

as

I have already stated vis over the nose is not a problem.

I have the spring gear and headliner kit, the aircraft is probably a

little

heavy at 989lbs and has a C of G og 10.23".

I haven't added up my hours but I probably spent about 1500 hrs in the
workshop over a two year period, I have to admit I was pretty focused on
the job.

I will try and get some photos on the net somehow.

I hope this helps with the motivation, stick with it, believe me it is a
real ball to fly!!

Cheers.

Alister Yeoman e-mail yeoman@voyager.co.nz
----------

From: RebelAir@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Date: Saturday, October 24, 1998 4:26 PM

Hello There Alister

We certainly 'do not mind' hearing from anyone regarding Rebel issues.

The

builder's group has made it possible for me to get where I am on this

project

and I know I would not have gotten anywhere close to completion

without

all

the valuable help from many talented builders. Together we can make

better

airplanes and make MAM more successful as well which is good for all

builders

of their products.

Your information was most helpful regarding control deflections as the

manual

as you know says very little on any control movements whether it be

rudder,

flaps etc. Del just mentioned that there was very little movement on

his

flaps during flight which confirms comments of several others with

regard

to

the flaps.

Our heartiest congratulations on your first flight of your 0320 Rebel.

I

am

installing the same engine and I know we would all love to hear more

details

of your building experiences, flight data etc. etc. What was your

cruise

speed, stall, landing speeds, empty weight, modifications etc. if any

to

your

aircraft and how did you get it done so fast?

Hope to hear from you again.

All the best!


Brian #328

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Message-Id: <E0zXdT7-0006Bq-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 22:37:21 -0500


Good Grief !! I really didn't intend to sound like 'the great
expert' !! These are just the way <I> fly the thing - I'm always interested
in alternatives. (So lets hear them, Rebel Flyers !!)

When I use full flap for take off, I only leave it down until I
get up about 100 - 200 ft., then bleed it off. Most of the guys have found
the best rate of climb comes at either no flap or 1 notch.
This trick goes way back to the days of flying an Auster Mk. VII
out of small, muddy fields - the quicker you got it out of the mud, the
faster it accelerated !! Not really necessary for nice paved strips, but
what the heck - it saves wear on the tires !! (and looks exciting :-) )

We had a private Wilga at our gliding club for several years,
but I never got a chance to try it. :-( We have 5 180 hp. Super Cubs
for most of the work, and a 150 hp. PA-12 for backup. One day, I hope
to get them to try a specially built Rebel for towing - the club insists
they WILL do it, WITH a 200 hp. Subaru conversion. (They're tired of
buying cylinders for the Lycs ! 10 tows/hour 7 days a week !)

I have added notches to the flaps on both Rebels - they go down
about 23 degrees, instead of 18, and UP is about 10, instead of 6.
Unfortunately, my engines are both too weak to get any advantage from
the extra UP - the airplane just SAGS....<sigh>. With a 320, or even an
O-235-L2C or -N2C, you WILL gain another 2-3 mph, plus better ride in
turbulence.

I almost always 3 point - that way, I know it's done flying
(well .... almost !!) The Rebel wing is SO good, I've picked up a wing
while turning off on a taxiway !! The old saying is true - "You're NOT
done flying until the ropes are tied !!!"
I find Wheelies are much harder to do - just me. I used to use
them in Champs, in strong winds, but there just doesn't seem to be any
advantage with the Rebel.

We love our skylights too ! We've found you can make them about
1 1/2" bigger all around than the manual suggests, if you make a metal
doubler to go around the opening - the extra size really helps !!

Just came back from a GREAT flight ! Two hours in the fall
sunshine - about 20 degrees (C). Found a nice thermal downwind of a
gravel pit, throttled right back, hung 1 notch of flap, and climbed
at 600 fpm to 4,500 (not spectacular, compared to summer, but very
pleasant). Burned off the height doing linked wingovers, a couple of
loops, and spins left & right - WHEEE !
The Rebel REALLY spins - very slow for the first turn, THEN -
hang on !! Recovery is instantaneous ...
In smaller, stronger thermals, i've used 2 notches of flap &
really cranked her in tight in a steep turn to stay in the core. Once,
on the way to Florida, we hit a boomer in a valley, and gained 9,000 ft
in about 4 turns !!

Please keep the line open. I'm sure there are a LOT of builders
here who will hang on every word of encouragement & advice - me too !!

Blue skies & tailwinds.
.....bobp
---------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 07:18 AM 10/25/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

Well, you learn something every day! Full flap for take off! I have only
been using 2 notches.

Your approaches sound like they make a lot of sense, Have you ever flown a
Polish Wilga? Thats the approach to use with them and it works very well, I
can't wait for the weather to clear so I can give that method a go.

How many degrees positive and negative do you have on your flaperons?

Do you prefer the wheeler or three point landing?

Yes I have 4 skylights on both sides and they can be very useful, the other
day I had some air to air photos done and they came in extremely helpful
when we wanted to get some shots from above, I used the skylights to tuck
myself under the camera ship-- neat fun.

I am in the south island where most of the really good gliding is and I
have already found out how the Rebel is in good conditions, its a great
little flyer!

The system for homebuilts here in NZ is now the experimental one very
similar to that in the States so it is no problem at all to get up and
running.

Thanks for the clues on how to fly this thing --- I need all the help I can
get!!

Cheers

Alister. yeoman@voyager.co.nz



----------

From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: General questions - long answers
Date: Sunday, October 25, 1998 3:13 PM


THANK YOU AGAIN !! This is EXACTLY the kind of thing everybody

is

looking for !!

Interesting you mention the flap lever - I agree - the standard
flat bar IS not pleasant to use !! Most of the builders here have gone

to

an "L" shaped handle, with about a 45 degree dogleg about half way down.
It just makes it SO much easier to pull at the full-flap position...

One of our builders makes a set of carved oak grips for the flap
handle & sticks ($35/set) - a popular addition. He includes a template
for the dog-leg handle, too.

Like you, I use full flapperon for takeoff (it just hops up !!).
I also prefer to use full flapperon for landing, even in strong, gusty
conditions - I guess i don't mind the higher control forces as much, and
consider it a good trade-off for the VERY slow touchdown speed. My

approach

technique is quite different, though. I prefer to approach high (old

glider

pilot !), then use full flap & descend quite steeply at 70-75 mph. This

gets

me through wind gradients with a great safety margin, and the extra speed
gives a little more float to fine-tune the attitude for a good touchdown

-

the extra speed bleeds off very quickly with all that flap down !

Do you have skylights ?? I LOVE mine - can't have too much
visibility !! (old glider pilot-again ! (still ;-) )

The extra notch of negative flap might help your ride in the
rough air....

The Rebel climbs very nicely in thermals, and it loves mountain
waves !! Are you in a location where you can try them ?? Several gliders
have flown the full length of New Zealand in wave.

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------
At 08:39 AM 10/24/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hello again Brian,

I'm pleased that I could be of some help.

Yes, I know what you mean regarding looking for performance data

regarding

the aircraft while you are still building, I was just the same! I guess

we

are all hoping that the aircraft will be up to expectations.

I can assure you that in my case it definitely was up to expectations,

the

aircraft is a delight to fly and only after a few hours you feel

completely

at home in it.

I am running at this stage a 150hp 0-320 and a Sensenich 74-58 prop.

Cruise is around 110 kts. at about 2450rpm. If the air is a little rough

I

pull the power back to the rough air speed at about 103 Kts.

It climbs like a home sick angel, solo about 1500fmp and all up
1100-1200fpm.

It flys very much like Super Cub in slow flight and my 50 Kt approaches

are

still way too fast. The Flaperons appear to be very effective at

assisting

the take off run but they are not my favorite piece of equipment for
landing, OK in smooth conditions but a bit of a handful in gusty
conditions, heavy aileron pressures and adverse yaw etc.

Its got heaps and heaps of room inside and with the clear doors and
streamline cowl has tremendous visibility. One thing that caught me
completely by surprise when I first flew it was the nose down attitude

in

the cruise, you can see directly down in front, its almost like being in

a

helicopter---well almost!

At all up weight stall clean no power is a little under 40 Kts with full
flaperon you can take 4 Kts off that, and with say 1700rpm it will be

down

indicated at 31 Kts, you can get a little bit of a wing drop either way
with that one.

I have done a few mods to mine, one was the flaperon lever which I think

is

a weak spot in the design, I designed my own which I think is a big
improvement, If I can work out how to place a picture over this dammed
computer I might just do that if anyone is interested.

The other mod was a moving back of the pilots seating position. Because

the

firewall was cut back 3" the rudder pedals had to be moved back as well

to

allow full movement, this changed the relativity of the distance between
the rudders and the control stick. To over come this I bent up another
control stick to position the hand grip 3" further back and also built a
standoff for the throttle, mixture, carbheat and trim control etc. to
postion them 3" further aft.

The net affect is a seating position for myself ( I am just over 6')

that I

estimate for C of G purposes is 23" aft of the Datum. So I am sitting

well

back which I really enjoy with the clear doors it gives amazing vis. and

as

I have already stated vis over the nose is not a problem.

I have the spring gear and headliner kit, the aircraft is probably a

little

heavy at 989lbs and has a C of G og 10.23".

I haven't added up my hours but I probably spent about 1500 hrs in the
workshop over a two year period, I have to admit I was pretty focused on
the job.

I will try and get some photos on the net somehow.

I hope this helps with the motivation, stick with it, believe me it is a
real ball to fly!!

Cheers.

Alister Yeoman e-mail yeoman@voyager.co.nz
----------

The project

without

all better builders manual rudder,

his

regard

to

I

am details

cruise

to

your

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