Page 1 of 1

Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm
by Walter Klatt
I have had a situation happen to me twice now, that has got me wondering
whether I could encounter a potential safety problem.

I was doing some weight and balance work after my float installation which
involved draining the fuel from my tanks. Later, I put back about 5 gallons
into one tank, and then tried to start the engine. I shoved in the mixture
and gave it the usual 5 primes for a cold engine. It fired up as usual but
would only run for a few seconds. I tried again and again, but it would only
run with the fuel primed into the cylinders. I checked fuel flow at my
gascolator drain and it was fine, so obviously it was feeding to there. I
then put some fuel into the other tank and then it started and ran fine
after that.

I can shut off either tank and it also runs fine. I have done this in flight
many times.

Then, just recently, I encountered a similar situation again. This time, I
drained only one tank dry. I had mogas in this one, and decided to drain it
and fill it with avgas. After it was dry, I selected my other tank which
still had 15 gallons of avgas in it, and was going to taxi over to the
airport fuel pumps for a fill-up. To my surprise again, the engine would not
start beyond the priming, same as last time.

Since I didn't want to put the mogas back into the drained tank, I proceeded
to drain some fuel out of the avgas tank, from the gascolator drain. I put
about 3 gallons into my plastic gas can, but before pouring it into the
empty tank, decided to try starting it one more time. This time, to my
surprise, it started and ran fine, with just the one tank.

I should mention at this time, that I have a fuel flow gauge instrument, so
have a fuel flow transducer that is mounted down line of the gascolator,
just before the fuel goes into the carb. It does take some pressure, about
.5 PSI, I believe. When I did my fuel flow tests prior to first flight, my
flows were right at the minimum (150% of max power) at low fuel and the
airplane set at maximum climb angle. When I tried it without the flow
sensor, the rate of flow was considerably higher (about double actually). So
as not to risk a fuel starvation in flight due to inadequate pressure, I
added ram air tubes to the tops of my gas caps with flared openings facing
into the windscreen.

Anyways, I have never had a problem in flight, and have tested it back when
I was on wheels at maximum power climbs on one tank, and never a burp from
my engine, even with one tank down to less than 5 gallons.

However, I have never actually run one tank dry in flight, and wondering if
what happened to me on the ground could be repeated in flight. On the
ground, I assumed air in my lines somehow caused a low fuel pressure problem
when starting a new tank. In flight, this shouldn't happen with my ram air
vents, but I am not overly anxious to try it now given my ground experience.

My Rebel has the fuel shut off valves up top at the tank outlets, so the
lines can fill with air if you shut off a tank and run the other dry. The
lines join at a tee just before going through the firewall to the
gascolator. If the valves were at the bottom, this air in the lines problem
shouldn't happen, at least that's my theory.

Anyway, I wanted to get some feedback from the group and those that are
flying to see if they have encountered this situation, and if anyone has run
one tank dry in flight.

From a safety perspective, I used to think that it would be a good idea to
switch to one tank, if you're caught in a low fuel situation, and then when
it is dry, switch to the other one and look for a place to land. Not sure
now, whether this is such a good idea.




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Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm
by Bob Patterson
Hi Walter !

Hmmmmmmm ...... sounds like your fuel flow transducer
isn't helping the situation. I recall reading something about there
being 2 types of transducers, one of which (vane-type, I believe)
can cause serious problems if it malfunctions. The other had some
sort of bypass ... Seems to me they wanted them installed <before>
the gascolator, in case they shed parts !

Since it DID restart 'eventually', it sounds more like it was
just air in the line that had to work through. Instead of draining at
the gascolator, why not empty the tanks at the water drains ?? That
would leave the lines full, and those drains are supposed to be the
low point in the system ...

In any case, it is a worry, but probably not a big one - I've
deliberately run one tank dry on 2 Rebels in flight. Even rocked the
wings and kicked rudder to squeeze out the last drop ! The engine,
windmilling, kicked right back on when I switched on the other
tank, after turning off the empty one. Like you, I was running
100 ll in one, and mogas in the left - got some bad mogas, and wanted
it ALL out, so I could replace the sight guage, which had been turned
brown & brittle by the fuel.

I would probably follow your emergency procedure too, if I
ever got into that spot - seems like the best thing to try. You will
be surprised how much longer you can fly just by dropping the wing
opposite the tank you are emptying !! (Just leave lots of altitude,
in case you have to restart !) (and have a couple of landing spots
picked at all times !! ;-) )

......bobp

-----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 12:51 PM 11/4/01 -0800, you wrote:
I have had a situation happen to me twice now, that has got me wondering
whether I could encounter a potential safety problem.

I was doing some weight and balance work after my float installation which
involved draining the fuel from my tanks. Later, I put back about 5 gallons
into one tank, and then tried to start the engine. I shoved in the mixture
and gave it the usual 5 primes for a cold engine. It fired up as usual but
would only run for a few seconds. I tried again and again, but it would only
run with the fuel primed into the cylinders. I checked fuel flow at my
gascolator drain and it was fine, so obviously it was feeding to there. I
then put some fuel into the other tank and then it started and ran fine
after that.

I can shut off either tank and it also runs fine. I have done this in flight
many times.

Then, just recently, I encountered a similar situation again. This time, I
drained only one tank dry. I had mogas in this one, and decided to drain it
and fill it with avgas. After it was dry, I selected my other tank which
still had 15 gallons of avgas in it, and was going to taxi over to the
airport fuel pumps for a fill-up. To my surprise again, the engine would not
start beyond the priming, same as last time.

Since I didn't want to put the mogas back into the drained tank, I proceeded
to drain some fuel out of the avgas tank, from the gascolator drain. I put
about 3 gallons into my plastic gas can, but before pouring it into the
empty tank, decided to try starting it one more time. This time, to my
surprise, it started and ran fine, with just the one tank.

I should mention at this time, that I have a fuel flow gauge instrument, so
have a fuel flow transducer that is mounted down line of the gascolator,
just before the fuel goes into the carb. It does take some pressure, about
.5 PSI, I believe. When I did my fuel flow tests prior to first flight, my
flows were right at the minimum (150% of max power) at low fuel and the
airplane set at maximum climb angle. When I tried it without the flow
sensor, the rate of flow was considerably higher (about double actually). So
as not to risk a fuel starvation in flight due to inadequate pressure, I
added ram air tubes to the tops of my gas caps with flared openings facing
into the windscreen.

Anyways, I have never had a problem in flight, and have tested it back when
I was on wheels at maximum power climbs on one tank, and never a burp from
my engine, even with one tank down to less than 5 gallons.

However, I have never actually run one tank dry in flight, and wondering if
what happened to me on the ground could be repeated in flight. On the
ground, I assumed air in my lines somehow caused a low fuel pressure problem
when starting a new tank. In flight, this shouldn't happen with my ram air
vents, but I am not overly anxious to try it now given my ground experience.

My Rebel has the fuel shut off valves up top at the tank outlets, so the
lines can fill with air if you shut off a tank and run the other dry. The
lines join at a tee just before going through the firewall to the
gascolator. If the valves were at the bottom, this air in the lines problem
shouldn't happen, at least that's my theory.

Anyway, I wanted to get some feedback from the group and those that are
flying to see if they have encountered this situation, and if anyone has run
one tank dry in flight.
From a safety perspective, I used to think that it would be a good idea to
switch to one tank, if you're caught in a low fuel situation, and then when
it is dry, switch to the other one and look for a place to land. Not sure
now, whether this is such a good idea.


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Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm
by Walter Klatt
Yes, these transducers can be a problem with gravity feed systems. When I
first did my fuel flow tests, my results were unsatisfactory and I had to
switch to a different transducer that allowed higher fuel flow at a lower
pressure, but it still is just above the minimums for my engine. So I am
definitely counting on my ram air vents making up that difference in
pressure loss. It would be good to know if there was a formula or way of
calculating exactly how much PSI these ram air vents produce.

I will say that I like my fuel flow gauge. It also really highlights the
benefit and dollar savings of leaning your mixture in flight.

In response to why I drained from the gascolator instead of the tank drain?
It was simply more convenient for me. The wing is a lot higher to hold a can
up to than just below the engine. The last half gallon from the tank was
drained from the tank drain.

Anyway, good to hear that someone has actually run tanks dry in flight with
no ill effect. Thanks for your response, Bob.
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Bob Patterson
Sent: November 4, 2001 7:07 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?



Hi Walter !

Hmmmmmmm ...... sounds like your fuel flow transducer
isn't helping the situation. I recall reading something about there
being 2 types of transducers, one of which (vane-type, I believe)
can cause serious problems if it malfunctions. The other had some
sort of bypass ... Seems to me they wanted them installed <before>
the gascolator, in case they shed parts !

Since it DID restart 'eventually', it sounds more like it was
just air in the line that had to work through. Instead of draining at
the gascolator, why not empty the tanks at the water drains ?? That
would leave the lines full, and those drains are supposed to be the
low point in the system ...

In any case, it is a worry, but probably not a big one - I've
deliberately run one tank dry on 2 Rebels in flight. Even rocked the
wings and kicked rudder to squeeze out the last drop ! The engine,
windmilling, kicked right back on when I switched on the other
tank, after turning off the empty one. Like you, I was running
100 ll in one, and mogas in the left - got some bad mogas, and wanted
it ALL out, so I could replace the sight guage, which had been turned
brown & brittle by the fuel.

I would probably follow your emergency procedure too, if I
ever got into that spot - seems like the best thing to try. You will
be surprised how much longer you can fly just by dropping the wing
opposite the tank you are emptying !! (Just leave lots of altitude,
in case you have to restart !) (and have a couple of landing spots
picked at all times !! ;-) )

......bobp

-----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 12:51 PM 11/4/01 -0800, you wrote:
I have had a situation happen to me twice now, that has got me wondering
whether I could encounter a potential safety problem.

I was doing some weight and balance work after my float
installation which
involved draining the fuel from my tanks. Later, I put back
about 5 gallons
into one tank, and then tried to start the engine. I shoved in
the mixture
and gave it the usual 5 primes for a cold engine. It fired up as
usual but
would only run for a few seconds. I tried again and again, but
it would only
run with the fuel primed into the cylinders. I checked fuel flow at my
gascolator drain and it was fine, so obviously it was feeding to there. I
then put some fuel into the other tank and then it started and ran fine
after that.

I can shut off either tank and it also runs fine. I have done
this in flight
many times.

Then, just recently, I encountered a similar situation again.
This time, I
drained only one tank dry. I had mogas in this one, and decided
to drain it
and fill it with avgas. After it was dry, I selected my other tank which
still had 15 gallons of avgas in it, and was going to taxi over to the
airport fuel pumps for a fill-up. To my surprise again, the
engine would not
start beyond the priming, same as last time.

Since I didn't want to put the mogas back into the drained tank,
I proceeded
to drain some fuel out of the avgas tank, from the gascolator
drain. I put
about 3 gallons into my plastic gas can, but before pouring it into the
empty tank, decided to try starting it one more time. This time, to my
surprise, it started and ran fine, with just the one tank.

I should mention at this time, that I have a fuel flow gauge
instrument, so
have a fuel flow transducer that is mounted down line of the gascolator,
just before the fuel goes into the carb. It does take some
pressure, about
.5 PSI, I believe. When I did my fuel flow tests prior to first
flight, my
flows were right at the minimum (150% of max power) at low fuel and the
airplane set at maximum climb angle. When I tried it without the flow
sensor, the rate of flow was considerably higher (about double
actually). So
as not to risk a fuel starvation in flight due to inadequate pressure, I
added ram air tubes to the tops of my gas caps with flared
openings facing
into the windscreen.

Anyways, I have never had a problem in flight, and have tested
it back when
I was on wheels at maximum power climbs on one tank, and never a
burp from
my engine, even with one tank down to less than 5 gallons.

However, I have never actually run one tank dry in flight, and
wondering if
what happened to me on the ground could be repeated in flight. On the
ground, I assumed air in my lines somehow caused a low fuel
pressure problem
when starting a new tank. In flight, this shouldn't happen with
my ram air
vents, but I am not overly anxious to try it now given my ground
experience.
My Rebel has the fuel shut off valves up top at the tank outlets, so the
lines can fill with air if you shut off a tank and run the other dry. The
lines join at a tee just before going through the firewall to the
gascolator. If the valves were at the bottom, this air in the
lines problem
shouldn't happen, at least that's my theory.

Anyway, I wanted to get some feedback from the group and those that are
flying to see if they have encountered this situation, and if
anyone has run
one tank dry in flight.
good idea to
switch to one tank, if you're caught in a low fuel situation,
and then when
it is dry, switch to the other one and look for a place to land. Not sure
now, whether this is such a good idea.


** To unsubscribe, send e-mail to list-server@dcsol.com
with **
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Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm
by Bob Patterson
Brian Cross has done the calculations for the amount of pressure
added by the tank ram vents - maybe he'll post it here again ....
He was pleased that there was a definite gain, and he has these
ram tubes, as I do on this last Rebel (not one I've run dry - yet ;-) )

You can pop a hose over the tank drain so you don't have to
hold the can - but, if you've got the stock drains, you'll have a
challenge holding the drain open. (A modified broom handle will
work ....) :-)

.....bobp

------------------------------------orig.----------------------------
At 07:13 AM 11/5/01 -0800, you wrote:
Yes, these transducers can be a problem with gravity feed systems. When I
first did my fuel flow tests, my results were unsatisfactory and I had to
switch to a different transducer that allowed higher fuel flow at a lower
pressure, but it still is just above the minimums for my engine. So I am
definitely counting on my ram air vents making up that difference in
pressure loss. It would be good to know if there was a formula or way of
calculating exactly how much PSI these ram air vents produce.

I will say that I like my fuel flow gauge. It also really highlights the
benefit and dollar savings of leaning your mixture in flight.

In response to why I drained from the gascolator instead of the tank drain?
It was simply more convenient for me. The wing is a lot higher to hold a can
up to than just below the engine. The last half gallon from the tank was
drained from the tank drain.

Anyway, good to hear that someone has actually run tanks dry in flight with
no ill effect. Thanks for your response, Bob.
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Bob Patterson
Sent: November 4, 2001 7:07 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?



Hi Walter !

Hmmmmmmm ...... sounds like your fuel flow transducer
isn't helping the situation. I recall reading something about there
being 2 types of transducers, one of which (vane-type, I believe)
can cause serious problems if it malfunctions. The other had some
sort of bypass ... Seems to me they wanted them installed <before>
the gascolator, in case they shed parts !

Since it DID restart 'eventually', it sounds more like it was
just air in the line that had to work through. Instead of draining at
the gascolator, why not empty the tanks at the water drains ?? That
would leave the lines full, and those drains are supposed to be the
low point in the system ...

In any case, it is a worry, but probably not a big one - I've
deliberately run one tank dry on 2 Rebels in flight. Even rocked the
wings and kicked rudder to squeeze out the last drop ! The engine,
windmilling, kicked right back on when I switched on the other
tank, after turning off the empty one. Like you, I was running
100 ll in one, and mogas in the left - got some bad mogas, and wanted
it ALL out, so I could replace the sight guage, which had been turned
brown & brittle by the fuel.

I would probably follow your emergency procedure too, if I
ever got into that spot - seems like the best thing to try. You will
be surprised how much longer you can fly just by dropping the wing
opposite the tank you are emptying !! (Just leave lots of altitude,
in case you have to restart !) (and have a couple of landing spots
picked at all times !! ;-) )

......bobp

-----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 12:51 PM 11/4/01 -0800, you wrote:
I have had a situation happen to me twice now, that has got me wondering
whether I could encounter a potential safety problem.

I was doing some weight and balance work after my float
installation which
involved draining the fuel from my tanks. Later, I put back
about 5 gallons
into one tank, and then tried to start the engine. I shoved in
the mixture
and gave it the usual 5 primes for a cold engine. It fired up as
usual but
would only run for a few seconds. I tried again and again, but
it would only
run with the fuel primed into the cylinders. I checked fuel flow at my
gascolator drain and it was fine, so obviously it was feeding to there. I
then put some fuel into the other tank and then it started and ran fine
after that.

I can shut off either tank and it also runs fine. I have done
this in flight
many times.

Then, just recently, I encountered a similar situation again.
This time, I
drained only one tank dry. I had mogas in this one, and decided
to drain it
and fill it with avgas. After it was dry, I selected my other tank which
still had 15 gallons of avgas in it, and was going to taxi over to the
airport fuel pumps for a fill-up. To my surprise again, the
engine would not
start beyond the priming, same as last time.

Since I didn't want to put the mogas back into the drained tank,
I proceeded
to drain some fuel out of the avgas tank, from the gascolator
drain. I put
about 3 gallons into my plastic gas can, but before pouring it into the
empty tank, decided to try starting it one more time. This time, to my
surprise, it started and ran fine, with just the one tank.

I should mention at this time, that I have a fuel flow gauge
instrument, so
have a fuel flow transducer that is mounted down line of the gascolator,
just before the fuel goes into the carb. It does take some
pressure, about
.5 PSI, I believe. When I did my fuel flow tests prior to first
flight, my
flows were right at the minimum (150% of max power) at low fuel and the
airplane set at maximum climb angle. When I tried it without the flow
sensor, the rate of flow was considerably higher (about double
actually). So
as not to risk a fuel starvation in flight due to inadequate pressure, I
added ram air tubes to the tops of my gas caps with flared
openings facing
into the windscreen.

Anyways, I have never had a problem in flight, and have tested
it back when
I was on wheels at maximum power climbs on one tank, and never a
burp from
my engine, even with one tank down to less than 5 gallons.

However, I have never actually run one tank dry in flight, and
wondering if
what happened to me on the ground could be repeated in flight. On the
ground, I assumed air in my lines somehow caused a low fuel
pressure problem
when starting a new tank. In flight, this shouldn't happen with
my ram air
vents, but I am not overly anxious to try it now given my ground
experience.
My Rebel has the fuel shut off valves up top at the tank outlets, so the
lines can fill with air if you shut off a tank and run the other dry. The
lines join at a tee just before going through the firewall to the
gascolator. If the valves were at the bottom, this air in the
lines problem
shouldn't happen, at least that's my theory.

Anyway, I wanted to get some feedback from the group and those that are
flying to see if they have encountered this situation, and if
anyone has run
one tank dry in flight.
good idea to
switch to one tank, if you're caught in a low fuel situation,
and then when
it is dry, switch to the other one and look for a place to land. Not sure
now, whether this is such a good idea.


** To unsubscribe, send e-mail to list-server@dcsol.com
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-----------------------------------------------------------------

Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm
by Brian H. Cross
Hi

I can get that info out again, just have to check my files.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Walter Klatt
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:13 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?


Yes, these transducers can be a problem with gravity feed systems. When I
first did my fuel flow tests, my results were unsatisfactory and I had to
switch to a different transducer that allowed higher fuel flow at a lower
pressure, but it still is just above the minimums for my engine. So I am
definitely counting on my ram air vents making up that difference in
pressure loss. It would be good to know if there was a formula or way of
calculating exactly how much PSI these ram air vents produce.

I will say that I like my fuel flow gauge. It also really highlights the
benefit and dollar savings of leaning your mixture in flight.

In response to why I drained from the gascolator instead of the tank drain?
It was simply more convenient for me. The wing is a lot higher to hold a can
up to than just below the engine. The last half gallon from the tank was
drained from the tank drain.

Anyway, good to hear that someone has actually run tanks dry in flight with
no ill effect. Thanks for your response, Bob.
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Bob Patterson
Sent: November 4, 2001 7:07 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?



Hi Walter !

Hmmmmmmm ...... sounds like your fuel flow transducer
isn't helping the situation. I recall reading something about there
being 2 types of transducers, one of which (vane-type, I believe)
can cause serious problems if it malfunctions. The other had some
sort of bypass ... Seems to me they wanted them installed <before>
the gascolator, in case they shed parts !

Since it DID restart 'eventually', it sounds more like it was
just air in the line that had to work through. Instead of draining at
the gascolator, why not empty the tanks at the water drains ?? That
would leave the lines full, and those drains are supposed to be the
low point in the system ...

In any case, it is a worry, but probably not a big one - I've
deliberately run one tank dry on 2 Rebels in flight. Even rocked the
wings and kicked rudder to squeeze out the last drop ! The engine,
windmilling, kicked right back on when I switched on the other
tank, after turning off the empty one. Like you, I was running
100 ll in one, and mogas in the left - got some bad mogas, and wanted
it ALL out, so I could replace the sight guage, which had been turned
brown & brittle by the fuel.

I would probably follow your emergency procedure too, if I
ever got into that spot - seems like the best thing to try. You will
be surprised how much longer you can fly just by dropping the wing
opposite the tank you are emptying !! (Just leave lots of altitude,
in case you have to restart !) (and have a couple of landing spots
picked at all times !! ;-) )

......bobp

-----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 12:51 PM 11/4/01 -0800, you wrote:
I have had a situation happen to me twice now, that has got me wondering
whether I could encounter a potential safety problem.

I was doing some weight and balance work after my float
installation which
involved draining the fuel from my tanks. Later, I put back
about 5 gallons
into one tank, and then tried to start the engine. I shoved in
the mixture
and gave it the usual 5 primes for a cold engine. It fired up as
usual but
would only run for a few seconds. I tried again and again, but
it would only
run with the fuel primed into the cylinders. I checked fuel flow at my
gascolator drain and it was fine, so obviously it was feeding to there. I
then put some fuel into the other tank and then it started and ran fine
after that.

I can shut off either tank and it also runs fine. I have done
this in flight
many times.

Then, just recently, I encountered a similar situation again.
This time, I
drained only one tank dry. I had mogas in this one, and decided
to drain it
and fill it with avgas. After it was dry, I selected my other tank which
still had 15 gallons of avgas in it, and was going to taxi over to the
airport fuel pumps for a fill-up. To my surprise again, the
engine would not
start beyond the priming, same as last time.

Since I didn't want to put the mogas back into the drained tank,
I proceeded
to drain some fuel out of the avgas tank, from the gascolator
drain. I put
about 3 gallons into my plastic gas can, but before pouring it into the
empty tank, decided to try starting it one more time. This time, to my
surprise, it started and ran fine, with just the one tank.

I should mention at this time, that I have a fuel flow gauge
instrument, so
have a fuel flow transducer that is mounted down line of the gascolator,
just before the fuel goes into the carb. It does take some
pressure, about
.5 PSI, I believe. When I did my fuel flow tests prior to first
flight, my
flows were right at the minimum (150% of max power) at low fuel and the
airplane set at maximum climb angle. When I tried it without the flow
sensor, the rate of flow was considerably higher (about double
actually). So
as not to risk a fuel starvation in flight due to inadequate pressure, I
added ram air tubes to the tops of my gas caps with flared
openings facing
into the windscreen.

Anyways, I have never had a problem in flight, and have tested
it back when
I was on wheels at maximum power climbs on one tank, and never a
burp from
my engine, even with one tank down to less than 5 gallons.

However, I have never actually run one tank dry in flight, and
wondering if
what happened to me on the ground could be repeated in flight. On the
ground, I assumed air in my lines somehow caused a low fuel
pressure problem
when starting a new tank. In flight, this shouldn't happen with
my ram air
vents, but I am not overly anxious to try it now given my ground
experience.
My Rebel has the fuel shut off valves up top at the tank outlets, so the
lines can fill with air if you shut off a tank and run the other dry. The
lines join at a tee just before going through the firewall to the
gascolator. If the valves were at the bottom, this air in the
lines problem
shouldn't happen, at least that's my theory.

Anyway, I wanted to get some feedback from the group and those that are
flying to see if they have encountered this situation, and if
anyone has run
one tank dry in flight.
good idea to
switch to one tank, if you're caught in a low fuel situation,
and then when
it is dry, switch to the other one and look for a place to land. Not sure
now, whether this is such a good idea.


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Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm
by Walter Klatt
Thanks Brian. I would appreciate knowing how to calculate this.
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Brian H. Cross
Sent: November 7, 2001 6:57 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?


Hi

I can get that info out again, just have to check my files.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Walter Klatt
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:13 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?


Yes, these transducers can be a problem with gravity feed systems. When I
first did my fuel flow tests, my results were unsatisfactory and I had to
switch to a different transducer that allowed higher fuel flow at a lower
pressure, but it still is just above the minimums for my engine. So I am
definitely counting on my ram air vents making up that difference in
pressure loss. It would be good to know if there was a formula or way of
calculating exactly how much PSI these ram air vents produce.

I will say that I like my fuel flow gauge. It also really highlights the
benefit and dollar savings of leaning your mixture in flight.

In response to why I drained from the gascolator instead of the
tank drain?
It was simply more convenient for me. The wing is a lot higher to
hold a can
up to than just below the engine. The last half gallon from the tank was
drained from the tank drain.

Anyway, good to hear that someone has actually run tanks dry in
flight with
no ill effect. Thanks for your response, Bob.
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Bob Patterson
Sent: November 4, 2001 7:07 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Running a fuel tank dry in flight in the Rebel?



Hi Walter !

Hmmmmmmm ...... sounds like your fuel flow transducer
isn't helping the situation. I recall reading something about there
being 2 types of transducers, one of which (vane-type, I believe)
can cause serious problems if it malfunctions. The other had some
sort of bypass ... Seems to me they wanted them installed <before>
the gascolator, in case they shed parts !

Since it DID restart 'eventually', it sounds more like it was
just air in the line that had to work through. Instead of draining at
the gascolator, why not empty the tanks at the water drains ?? That
would leave the lines full, and those drains are supposed to be the
low point in the system ...

In any case, it is a worry, but probably not a big one - I've
deliberately run one tank dry on 2 Rebels in flight. Even rocked the
wings and kicked rudder to squeeze out the last drop ! The engine,
windmilling, kicked right back on when I switched on the other
tank, after turning off the empty one. Like you, I was running
100 ll in one, and mogas in the left - got some bad mogas, and wanted
it ALL out, so I could replace the sight guage, which had been turned
brown & brittle by the fuel.

I would probably follow your emergency procedure too, if I
ever got into that spot - seems like the best thing to try. You will
be surprised how much longer you can fly just by dropping the wing
opposite the tank you are emptying !! (Just leave lots of altitude,
in case you have to restart !) (and have a couple of landing spots
picked at all times !! ;-) )

......bobp

-----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 12:51 PM 11/4/01 -0800, you wrote:
I have had a situation happen to me twice now, that has got me
wondering
whether I could encounter a potential safety problem.

I was doing some weight and balance work after my float
installation which
involved draining the fuel from my tanks. Later, I put back
about 5 gallons
into one tank, and then tried to start the engine. I shoved in
the mixture
and gave it the usual 5 primes for a cold engine. It fired up as
usual but
would only run for a few seconds. I tried again and again, but
it would only
run with the fuel primed into the cylinders. I checked fuel flow at my
gascolator drain and it was fine, so obviously it was feeding
to there. I
then put some fuel into the other tank and then it started and ran fine
after that.

I can shut off either tank and it also runs fine. I have done
this in flight
many times.

Then, just recently, I encountered a similar situation again.
This time, I
drained only one tank dry. I had mogas in this one, and decided
to drain it
and fill it with avgas. After it was dry, I selected my other
tank which
still had 15 gallons of avgas in it, and was going to taxi over to the
airport fuel pumps for a fill-up. To my surprise again, the
engine would not
start beyond the priming, same as last time.

Since I didn't want to put the mogas back into the drained tank,
I proceeded
to drain some fuel out of the avgas tank, from the gascolator
drain. I put
about 3 gallons into my plastic gas can, but before pouring it into the
empty tank, decided to try starting it one more time. This time, to my
surprise, it started and ran fine, with just the one tank.

I should mention at this time, that I have a fuel flow gauge
instrument, so
have a fuel flow transducer that is mounted down line of the
gascolator,
just before the fuel goes into the carb. It does take some
pressure, about
.5 PSI, I believe. When I did my fuel flow tests prior to first
flight, my
flows were right at the minimum (150% of max power) at low fuel and the
airplane set at maximum climb angle. When I tried it without the flow
sensor, the rate of flow was considerably higher (about double
actually). So
as not to risk a fuel starvation in flight due to inadequate
pressure, I
added ram air tubes to the tops of my gas caps with flared
openings facing
into the windscreen.

Anyways, I have never had a problem in flight, and have tested
it back when
I was on wheels at maximum power climbs on one tank, and never a
burp from
my engine, even with one tank down to less than 5 gallons.

However, I have never actually run one tank dry in flight, and
wondering if
what happened to me on the ground could be repeated in flight. On the
ground, I assumed air in my lines somehow caused a low fuel
pressure problem
when starting a new tank. In flight, this shouldn't happen with
my ram air
vents, but I am not overly anxious to try it now given my ground
experience.
My Rebel has the fuel shut off valves up top at the tank
outlets, so the
lines can fill with air if you shut off a tank and run the
other dry. The
lines join at a tee just before going through the firewall to the
gascolator. If the valves were at the bottom, this air in the
lines problem
shouldn't happen, at least that's my theory.

Anyway, I wanted to get some feedback from the group and those that are
flying to see if they have encountered this situation, and if
anyone has run
one tank dry in flight.
good idea to
switch to one tank, if you're caught in a low fuel situation,
and then when
it is dry, switch to the other one and look for a place to
land. Not sure
now, whether this is such a good idea.


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