The steering pivot axis of my Murphy tailwheel is tilted aft about 3.5
degrees. ie the top of the axis is more rearward than the bottom of the
axis. More weight helps but not much and I don't think its going to sag
as weight has been on the spring for a couple of years already. As I
understand it this is the reverse of what is needed for proper tracking
without shimmy ???? I don't particularly like the idea of using shims
between the tailwheel and the fibreglass spring, or milling the
tailwheel, as the bolt holes are already drilled. Angled bolts would
tend to put side pressure on the bolts going through the fibreglass.
Well I could correct perhaps about 2 degrees that way I guess but I'd
still have a slight rearward tilt. Bingelis says the pivot angle should
be up to 2 degrees forward rather than rearward which seems to make
sense!
Any comments before I chuck it and possibly waste another couple of days
trying to make a steel spring??
thanks
Ken
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tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
-
Drew and Jan
tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
Ken is there a delrin spacer at the front of your spring between the spring
and the fuselage? You could change the angle by adding washers at the front.
Drew
At 08:58 AM 9/19/01 -0400, you wrote:
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and the fuselage? You could change the angle by adding washers at the front.
Drew
At 08:58 AM 9/19/01 -0400, you wrote:
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The steering pivot axis of my Murphy tailwheel is tilted aft about 3.5
degrees. ie the top of the axis is more rearward than the bottom of the
axis. More weight helps but not much and I don't think its going to sag
as weight has been on the spring for a couple of years already. As I
understand it this is the reverse of what is needed for proper tracking
without shimmy ???? I don't particularly like the idea of using shims
between the tailwheel and the fibreglass spring, or milling the
tailwheel, as the bolt holes are already drilled. Angled bolts would
tend to put side pressure on the bolts going through the fibreglass.
Well I could correct perhaps about 2 degrees that way I guess but I'd
still have a slight rearward tilt. Bingelis says the pivot angle should
be up to 2 degrees forward rather than rearward which seems to make
sense!
Any comments before I chuck it and possibly waste another couple of days
trying to make a steel spring??
thanks
Ken
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Brian H. Cross
tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
Hi Ken
I have the Scott 3200 tailwheel. I had to get rid of the fiberglass spring
as it flexed so much that it was diffcult to get the proper chain
adjustment. If the skid flexed too much, which it did in Sarnia one day, it
broke & lost the tension spring on the runway, (which I later recovered when
I walked down the runway). It was not a hard landing but there are problems
with this setup although it is really smooth for taxiing. I may have jumped
to the wrong conclusion, but as soon as I switched to much stiffer Al.
tailskid, my problems were over. I did have serious tailwheel shimmy with
the original setup to the point that the tube was ruined & I broke the bead
from the tire to rim.
No the tilt is too far forward per your specs., but I have not had any
issues with the chain or the wheel. However, I do find it harder to break
the tailwheel out when taxiing but it is a price I am willing to pay as all
the other issues are now just memories. In the winter, I may go back & bend
the spring so that the pivot axis is more vertical as you suggest so I
appreciate your comments on this.
This has been the only issue that I have had with the airplane other than
the fact that I have been unsuccessful in getting the bird painted.
Cheers
Brian #328R
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
k
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 8:58 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
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The steering pivot axis of my Murphy tailwheel is tilted aft about 3.5
degrees. ie the top of the axis is more rearward than the bottom of the
axis. More weight helps but not much and I don't think its going to sag
as weight has been on the spring for a couple of years already. As I
understand it this is the reverse of what is needed for proper tracking
without shimmy ???? I don't particularly like the idea of using shims
between the tailwheel and the fibreglass spring, or milling the
tailwheel, as the bolt holes are already drilled. Angled bolts would
tend to put side pressure on the bolts going through the fibreglass.
Well I could correct perhaps about 2 degrees that way I guess but I'd
still have a slight rearward tilt. Bingelis says the pivot angle should
be up to 2 degrees forward rather than rearward which seems to make
sense!
Any comments before I chuck it and possibly waste another couple of days
trying to make a steel spring??
thanks
Ken
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I have the Scott 3200 tailwheel. I had to get rid of the fiberglass spring
as it flexed so much that it was diffcult to get the proper chain
adjustment. If the skid flexed too much, which it did in Sarnia one day, it
broke & lost the tension spring on the runway, (which I later recovered when
I walked down the runway). It was not a hard landing but there are problems
with this setup although it is really smooth for taxiing. I may have jumped
to the wrong conclusion, but as soon as I switched to much stiffer Al.
tailskid, my problems were over. I did have serious tailwheel shimmy with
the original setup to the point that the tube was ruined & I broke the bead
from the tire to rim.
No the tilt is too far forward per your specs., but I have not had any
issues with the chain or the wheel. However, I do find it harder to break
the tailwheel out when taxiing but it is a price I am willing to pay as all
the other issues are now just memories. In the winter, I may go back & bend
the spring so that the pivot axis is more vertical as you suggest so I
appreciate your comments on this.
This has been the only issue that I have had with the airplane other than
the fact that I have been unsuccessful in getting the bird painted.
Cheers
Brian #328R
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
k
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 8:58 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
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The steering pivot axis of my Murphy tailwheel is tilted aft about 3.5
degrees. ie the top of the axis is more rearward than the bottom of the
axis. More weight helps but not much and I don't think its going to sag
as weight has been on the spring for a couple of years already. As I
understand it this is the reverse of what is needed for proper tracking
without shimmy ???? I don't particularly like the idea of using shims
between the tailwheel and the fibreglass spring, or milling the
tailwheel, as the bolt holes are already drilled. Angled bolts would
tend to put side pressure on the bolts going through the fibreglass.
Well I could correct perhaps about 2 degrees that way I guess but I'd
still have a slight rearward tilt. Bingelis says the pivot angle should
be up to 2 degrees forward rather than rearward which seems to make
sense!
Any comments before I chuck it and possibly waste another couple of days
trying to make a steel spring??
thanks
Ken
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-
k
tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
Thank you Brian and Drew
A Delrin spacer almost an inch thick would have been required with some
more machinging of the TS-2 so I have started making a steel spring from
a Princess Auto 2 leaf trailer spring (cdn$14. on sale). It looks like
it will weigh about 4 lb which is a 2.7 lb increase. The stiffness
should theoretically be adjustable by varying the geometry of each leaf.
Although bigger drill bits keep shattering, it does seem to drill OK
with a 1/4" carbide concrete bit followed by hand filing. Didn't have
any luck bending it with a long 2x4, as per Bingelis, but I think he was
using thinner leaves. It does bend cold with the persuasion of a
hydraulic press though.
I haven't seen any info on the castor angle specifically related to the
Rebel, but I will aim for 1 or 2 degrees of trail as recommended by
Bingelis. Also I think my fibreglass tailskid may not have been supplied
by MAM so maybe nobody else even has a concern with the angle.
FWIW my TS-3 (1"x1" angle aluminum piece) that the stab struts fasten to
had an extrusion flaw that looked like a long crack along the bottom of
the V for about half the length of the piece. This is on a piece that
MAM supplied about 3 years ago. Most of the pits/scratch eventually
sanded out and a dye penetrant check (after sanding) confirmed there is
no crack, but it might be worth a look as it would be a bad place for a
crack to develop.
Ken
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A Delrin spacer almost an inch thick would have been required with some
more machinging of the TS-2 so I have started making a steel spring from
a Princess Auto 2 leaf trailer spring (cdn$14. on sale). It looks like
it will weigh about 4 lb which is a 2.7 lb increase. The stiffness
should theoretically be adjustable by varying the geometry of each leaf.
Although bigger drill bits keep shattering, it does seem to drill OK
with a 1/4" carbide concrete bit followed by hand filing. Didn't have
any luck bending it with a long 2x4, as per Bingelis, but I think he was
using thinner leaves. It does bend cold with the persuasion of a
hydraulic press though.
I haven't seen any info on the castor angle specifically related to the
Rebel, but I will aim for 1 or 2 degrees of trail as recommended by
Bingelis. Also I think my fibreglass tailskid may not have been supplied
by MAM so maybe nobody else even has a concern with the angle.
FWIW my TS-3 (1"x1" angle aluminum piece) that the stab struts fasten to
had an extrusion flaw that looked like a long crack along the bottom of
the V for about half the length of the piece. This is on a piece that
MAM supplied about 3 years ago. Most of the pits/scratch eventually
sanded out and a dye penetrant check (after sanding) confirmed there is
no crack, but it might be worth a look as it would be a bad place for a
crack to develop.
Ken
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-
Bob Patterson
tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
Hi Ken !
Without going out to measure, I'm fairly sure that the Delrin
spacer at the front of my spring <was> about 1" thick - with a curved
cut-out for the bottom of the fuse. Will check both Rebels - also will
have a look at the shaft angle. Have not had any operational problems,
like losing springs, with fiberglass springs. They can be shortened,
to change the angle, and to increase rigididty. I have had some occasional
shimmy, when I had the Maule tailwheel (they are prone to shimmy anyway !)
Since changing to the Scott 3200, there's only been a few brief
moments, at heavy loads, and I believe that shortening would eliminate
that.
One advantage is that the fiberglas will break if there is a
very large twisting side load - this would be better than a bent
fuselage ! The only disadvantage I've seen is that they do deteriorate
from UV exposure, over about 7 or 8 years outside - and even then,
it is a progressive thing, and very visible.
In looking at the trail angle of the vertical shaft, check it
when you have the weight of the wings, some fuel, and at least one
person aboard - the fiberglass spring will flex considerably, and
you may well have a correct angle.
......bobp
--------------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 09:07 AM 9/20/01 -0400, you wrote:
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Without going out to measure, I'm fairly sure that the Delrin
spacer at the front of my spring <was> about 1" thick - with a curved
cut-out for the bottom of the fuse. Will check both Rebels - also will
have a look at the shaft angle. Have not had any operational problems,
like losing springs, with fiberglass springs. They can be shortened,
to change the angle, and to increase rigididty. I have had some occasional
shimmy, when I had the Maule tailwheel (they are prone to shimmy anyway !)
Since changing to the Scott 3200, there's only been a few brief
moments, at heavy loads, and I believe that shortening would eliminate
that.
One advantage is that the fiberglas will break if there is a
very large twisting side load - this would be better than a bent
fuselage ! The only disadvantage I've seen is that they do deteriorate
from UV exposure, over about 7 or 8 years outside - and even then,
it is a progressive thing, and very visible.
In looking at the trail angle of the vertical shaft, check it
when you have the weight of the wings, some fuel, and at least one
person aboard - the fiberglass spring will flex considerably, and
you may well have a correct angle.
......bobp
--------------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 09:07 AM 9/20/01 -0400, you wrote:
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http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Thank you Brian and Drew
A Delrin spacer almost an inch thick would have been required with some
more machinging of the TS-2 so I have started making a steel spring from
a Princess Auto 2 leaf trailer spring (cdn$14. on sale). It looks like
it will weigh about 4 lb which is a 2.7 lb increase. The stiffness
should theoretically be adjustable by varying the geometry of each leaf.
Although bigger drill bits keep shattering, it does seem to drill OK
with a 1/4" carbide concrete bit followed by hand filing. Didn't have
any luck bending it with a long 2x4, as per Bingelis, but I think he was
using thinner leaves. It does bend cold with the persuasion of a
hydraulic press though.
I haven't seen any info on the castor angle specifically related to the
Rebel, but I will aim for 1 or 2 degrees of trail as recommended by
Bingelis. Also I think my fibreglass tailskid may not have been supplied
by MAM so maybe nobody else even has a concern with the angle.
FWIW my TS-3 (1"x1" angle aluminum piece) that the stab struts fasten to
had an extrusion flaw that looked like a long crack along the bottom of
the V for about half the length of the piece. This is on a piece that
MAM supplied about 3 years ago. Most of the pits/scratch eventually
sanded out and a dye penetrant check (after sanding) confirmed there is
no crack, but it might be worth a look as it would be a bad place for a
crack to develop.
Ken
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-
Walter Klatt
tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
Thought I might add my two bits worth here...
I used the standard Murphy tail wheel with the click-out for easy turning,
with a steel tail spring from Aircraft Spruce. It is part no. 06-14400 and
is for the Aeronca 7AC, 11AC. Cost was around $60 US. It was easily
adaptable with some drilling and adding a bushing in one of the existing
holes.
It works great, and I have never had a shimmy, or any other problem. I still
use the big delrin washer in front, and with full load and fuel the vertical
shaft of the tail wheel was nearly perpendicular to the ground.
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Bob Patterson
Sent: September 20, 2001 1:08 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
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Hi Ken !
Without going out to measure, I'm fairly sure that the Delrin
spacer at the front of my spring <was> about 1" thick - with a curved
cut-out for the bottom of the fuse. Will check both Rebels - also will
have a look at the shaft angle. Have not had any operational problems,
like losing springs, with fiberglass springs. They can be shortened,
to change the angle, and to increase rigididty. I have had some occasional
shimmy, when I had the Maule tailwheel (they are prone to shimmy anyway !)
Since changing to the Scott 3200, there's only been a few brief
moments, at heavy loads, and I believe that shortening would eliminate
that.
One advantage is that the fiberglas will break if there is a
very large twisting side load - this would be better than a bent
fuselage ! The only disadvantage I've seen is that they do deteriorate
from UV exposure, over about 7 or 8 years outside - and even then,
it is a progressive thing, and very visible.
In looking at the trail angle of the vertical shaft, check it
when you have the weight of the wings, some fuel, and at least one
person aboard - the fiberglass spring will flex considerably, and
you may well have a correct angle.
......bobp
--------------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
--
At 09:07 AM 9/20/01 -0400, you wrote:
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I used the standard Murphy tail wheel with the click-out for easy turning,
with a steel tail spring from Aircraft Spruce. It is part no. 06-14400 and
is for the Aeronca 7AC, 11AC. Cost was around $60 US. It was easily
adaptable with some drilling and adding a bushing in one of the existing
holes.
It works great, and I have never had a shimmy, or any other problem. I still
use the big delrin washer in front, and with full load and fuel the vertical
shaft of the tail wheel was nearly perpendicular to the ground.
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Bob Patterson
Sent: September 20, 2001 1:08 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Hi Ken !
Without going out to measure, I'm fairly sure that the Delrin
spacer at the front of my spring <was> about 1" thick - with a curved
cut-out for the bottom of the fuse. Will check both Rebels - also will
have a look at the shaft angle. Have not had any operational problems,
like losing springs, with fiberglass springs. They can be shortened,
to change the angle, and to increase rigididty. I have had some occasional
shimmy, when I had the Maule tailwheel (they are prone to shimmy anyway !)
Since changing to the Scott 3200, there's only been a few brief
moments, at heavy loads, and I believe that shortening would eliminate
that.
One advantage is that the fiberglas will break if there is a
very large twisting side load - this would be better than a bent
fuselage ! The only disadvantage I've seen is that they do deteriorate
from UV exposure, over about 7 or 8 years outside - and even then,
it is a progressive thing, and very visible.
In looking at the trail angle of the vertical shaft, check it
when you have the weight of the wings, some fuel, and at least one
person aboard - the fiberglass spring will flex considerably, and
you may well have a correct angle.
......bobp
--------------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
--
At 09:07 AM 9/20/01 -0400, you wrote:
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------**-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Thank you Brian and Drew
A Delrin spacer almost an inch thick would have been required with some
more machinging of the TS-2 so I have started making a steel spring from
a Princess Auto 2 leaf trailer spring (cdn$14. on sale). It looks like
it will weigh about 4 lb which is a 2.7 lb increase. The stiffness
should theoretically be adjustable by varying the geometry of each leaf.
Although bigger drill bits keep shattering, it does seem to drill OK
with a 1/4" carbide concrete bit followed by hand filing. Didn't have
any luck bending it with a long 2x4, as per Bingelis, but I think he was
using thinner leaves. It does bend cold with the persuasion of a
hydraulic press though.
I haven't seen any info on the castor angle specifically related to the
Rebel, but I will aim for 1 or 2 degrees of trail as recommended by
Bingelis. Also I think my fibreglass tailskid may not have been supplied
by MAM so maybe nobody else even has a concern with the angle.
FWIW my TS-3 (1"x1" angle aluminum piece) that the stab struts fasten to
had an extrusion flaw that looked like a long crack along the bottom of
the V for about half the length of the piece. This is on a piece that
MAM supplied about 3 years ago. Most of the pits/scratch eventually
sanded out and a dye penetrant check (after sanding) confirmed there is
no crack, but it might be worth a look as it would be a bad place for a
crack to develop.
Ken
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klehman
tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
Thank you Walter, Bob and other contributors!
Walter
Do you happen to know approximately how thick each leaf of that spring
is? The ASS sketch looks like the spring has a bolt in the middle
through the 3 leaves and then two leaves go forward to pick up the bolt
through the delrin washer?? Normally you only see one bolt through a
leaf spring set as any flexing shears the second bolt anyway. My attempt
with two leaves of 1.75" wide by 0.26" seems too soft. Even softer than
the fibreglass.
Bob
My big delrin washer is only 3/8" thick. A thicker washer helps but then
the spring only touches the TS-2 support along its rear edge even though
I've filed the bottom of the TS-2 somewhat. A thicker washer also starts
to get ugly... which is much like I'm starting to feel about springy
thingies...
Ken
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Walter
Do you happen to know approximately how thick each leaf of that spring
is? The ASS sketch looks like the spring has a bolt in the middle
through the 3 leaves and then two leaves go forward to pick up the bolt
through the delrin washer?? Normally you only see one bolt through a
leaf spring set as any flexing shears the second bolt anyway. My attempt
with two leaves of 1.75" wide by 0.26" seems too soft. Even softer than
the fibreglass.
Bob
My big delrin washer is only 3/8" thick. A thicker washer helps but then
the spring only touches the TS-2 support along its rear edge even though
I've filed the bottom of the TS-2 somewhat. A thicker washer also starts
to get ugly... which is much like I'm starting to feel about springy
thingies...
Ken
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Walter Klatt
tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
I am going out of town for a couple of days, and won't be back at my hangar
until Sunday, so am going by memory here. I believe, though, that the
springs are about 1/4 " or less thick. There is no bolt in the middle just
male and female divots on the leaves portion to keep them aligned. One leaf
goes to the front, and the back where the tail wheel attaches has two. The
third is in the middle and held in place by the divots and TS-? clamps. What
I liked about this spring, is that the front part is straight and long
enough so that the curve does not interfere where you clamp it.
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
klehman
Sent: September 20, 2001 8:45 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
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Thank you Walter, Bob and other contributors!
Walter
Do you happen to know approximately how thick each leaf of that spring
is? The ASS sketch looks like the spring has a bolt in the middle
through the 3 leaves and then two leaves go forward to pick up the bolt
through the delrin washer?? Normally you only see one bolt through a
leaf spring set as any flexing shears the second bolt anyway. My attempt
with two leaves of 1.75" wide by 0.26" seems too soft. Even softer than
the fibreglass.
Bob
My big delrin washer is only 3/8" thick. A thicker washer helps but then
the spring only touches the TS-2 support along its rear edge even though
I've filed the bottom of the TS-2 somewhat. A thicker washer also starts
to get ugly... which is much like I'm starting to feel about springy
thingies...
Ken
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until Sunday, so am going by memory here. I believe, though, that the
springs are about 1/4 " or less thick. There is no bolt in the middle just
male and female divots on the leaves portion to keep them aligned. One leaf
goes to the front, and the back where the tail wheel attaches has two. The
third is in the middle and held in place by the divots and TS-? clamps. What
I liked about this spring, is that the front part is straight and long
enough so that the curve does not interfere where you clamp it.
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
klehman
Sent: September 20, 2001 8:45 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: tailwheel castor (pivot angle)
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The list archives are located at:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder
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Thank you Walter, Bob and other contributors!
Walter
Do you happen to know approximately how thick each leaf of that spring
is? The ASS sketch looks like the spring has a bolt in the middle
through the 3 leaves and then two leaves go forward to pick up the bolt
through the delrin washer?? Normally you only see one bolt through a
leaf spring set as any flexing shears the second bolt anyway. My attempt
with two leaves of 1.75" wide by 0.26" seems too soft. Even softer than
the fibreglass.
Bob
My big delrin washer is only 3/8" thick. A thicker washer helps but then
the spring only touches the TS-2 support along its rear edge even though
I've filed the bottom of the TS-2 somewhat. A thicker washer also starts
to get ugly... which is much like I'm starting to feel about springy
thingies...
Ken
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