The Murphy Builders Site

I am another of those people who have been lurking the Murphy list without contributing so here goes more questions than answers. My Rebel is number 298 it has an o320 and bungee gear firewall back Sensenich prop etc. etc. I met Al Colburn at Oshkosh we corresponded several times as his schedule was a little ahead of me. Good to see his plane go to such an enterprising fellow as Charles Dixon. I have about 50 hours on my plane and it is a great joy in flight but I am struggling mightily with my landings. I am a student pilot converted from ultralights my instructor is a high time tailwheel pilot. My instructor is able to make adequate landings but even his are seldom a thing of beauty. I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion on what modifications make the biggest improvement in the Rebels hard surface landing ability. I plan on taking my check ride in the rebel I built but I hate to bounce some flight examiner down the runway three or four times every time I land. My bungees are tight per Murphy my tires are those dinky little things that came with the kit I have already ordered a set of 800 6s so what is next besides practice practice practice. I wonder if charles would mind listing contact sources for the spring gear struts Adapter rings and gear pivot mod I searched the archives and didnt come up with addresses or phone numbers. Am I on the right track in thinking that a looser landing gear will make for easier hard surface landings. I understand the bungees should not be loosened without modifying the pivot points. I have been running 14lbs tire pressure now wonder what is the minimum for the bigger tires. Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt (Walter.Klatt@home.com)
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Landing Gear


What is your empty C of G at? I have been going through the same challenge with my Rebel, and have just over 27 hours on it, but also can't land it properly. Every once in a while I get a real good one, (maybe one of four), but most times the main wheels touch early, and then you get the bounce up. I think that my problem is not getting my speed low enough (65 - 70 on final and 60 over threshold with full flaps), and I float too long about a foot off the runway. Then it suddenly sinks, and the mains touch before the tail wheel unless I'm quick enough to catch it and keep pulling back to hold them off to the end. I could try the initial flare higher off the runway, which would give me more time to catch the sudden sink, but fear dropping it from too high up and bending something.
I was doing better with the tail wheel instructor, especially with full fuel, and in fact do my best landings now at gross weight. Hence, I suspect my C of G. Currently, my empty weight is at 10.67 with an O320 and battery up front.
Anyway, I would also be interested in some advice here from the long time Rebel pilots.
Yarnell Family wrote:

I am another of those people who have been lurking the Murphy list without contributing so here goes more questions than answers. My Rebel is number 298 it has an o320 and bungee gear firewall back Sensenich prop etc. etc. I met Al Colburn at Oshkosh we corresponded several times as his schedule was a little ahead of me. Good to see his plane go to such an enterprising fellow as Charles Dixon. I have about 50 hours on my plane and it is a great joy in flight but I am struggling mightily with my landings. I am a student pilot converted from ultralights my instructor is a high time tailwheel pilot. My instructor is able to make adequate landings but even his are seldom a thing of beauty. I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion on what modifications make the biggest improvement in the Rebels hard surface landing ability. I plan on taking my check ride in the rebel I built but I hate to bounce some flight examiner down the runway three or four times every time I land. My bungees are tight per Murphy my tires are those dinky little things that came with the kit I have already ordered a set of 800 6s so what is next besides practice practice practice. I wonder if charles would mind listing contact sources for the spring gear struts Adapter rings and gear pivot mod I searched the archives and didnt come up with addresses or phone numbers. Am I on the right track in thinking that a looser landing gear will make for easier hard surface landings. I understand the bungees should not be loosened without modifying the pivot points. I have been running 14lbs tire pressure now wonder what is the minimum for the bigger tires. Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

Walter and Mr. Yarnell (didn't sign off your mail so don't know the name) My personal rebels empty C of G is 9.66 inches aft of datum and I can land on my tailwheel with the mains 3 feet off the ground! (must carry power so you don't smack it down doing silling things like this to your plane though). I also have the 6.00 x 6 tires on mine at 20 psi. Just a note that the straight ribbed 6.00 x 6 tires are easier to control on pavement than those DICO 8.00 x 6 turf tires with the wavy ribs. I have over 300 hours in Rebels (over 500 in tail draggers) and my landings are not always perfect either! Have you both checked that you have a minimum of 28 degrees of up elevator????? Make sure your elevator cables are not too loose so even though you have the travel, the air pressure forces it back 10 degrees or so while holding full aft stick. This is what I found on Charles Dixons! Lots of travel but cable so loose if you held full aft stick you could push the elevator down about 8 degrees. It is either that or you are not bring the stick all the way back to get a full stall landing. If you can get it slowed down a bit more and possibly carry a very small amount of power while you hover along the runway, just slowly bring the stick full aft and it should settle down on all 3 wheels at the same time. Hope that might help you out (or down)Wayne G. O'Sheawww.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From:Walter Klatt (Walter.Klatt@home.com)
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Landing Gear
What is your empty C of G at? I have been going through the same challenge with my Rebel, and have just over 27 hours on it, but also can't land it properly. Every once in a while I get a real good one, (maybe one of four), but most times the main wheels touch early, and then you get the bounce up. I think that my problem is not getting my speed low enough (65 - 70 on final and 60 over threshold with full flaps), and I float too long about a foot off the runway. Then it suddenly sinks, and the mains touch before the tail wheel unless I'm quick enough to catch it and keep pulling back to hold them off to the end. I could try the initial flare higher off the runway, which would give me more time to catch the sudden sink, but fear dropping it from too high up and bending something.
I was doing better with the tail wheel instructor, especially with full fuel, and in fact do my best landings now at gross weight. Hence, I suspect my C of G. Currently, my empty weight is at 10.67 with an O320 and battery up front.
Anyway, I would also be interested in some advice here from the long time Rebel pilots.
Yarnell Family wrote:

I am another of those people who have been lurking the Murphy list without contributing so here goes more questions than answers. My Rebel is number 298 it has an o320 and bungee gear firewall back Sensenich prop etc. etc. I met Al Colburn at Oshkosh we corresponded several times as his schedule was a little ahead of me. Good to see his plane go to such an enterprising fellow as Charles Dixon. I have about 50 hours on my plane and it is a great joy in flight but I am struggling mightily with my landings. I am a student pilot converted from ultralights my instructor is a high time tailwheel pilot. My instructor is able to make adequate landings but even his are seldom a thing of beauty. I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion on what modifications make the biggest improvement in the Rebels hard surface landing ability. I plan on taking my check ride in the rebel I built but I hate to bounce some flight examiner down the runway three or four times every time I land. My bungees are tight per Murphy my tires are those dinky little things that came with the kit I have already ordered a set of 800 6s so what is next besides practice practice practice. I wonder if charles would mind listing contact sources for the spring gear struts Adapter rings and gear pivot mod I searched the archives and didnt come up with addresses or phone numbers. Am I on the right track in thinking that a looser landing gear will make for easier hard surface landings. I understand the bungees should not be loosened without modifying the pivot points. I have been running 14lbs tire pressure now wonder what is the minimum for the bigger tires. Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea [mailto:oifa@irishfield.on.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 10:05 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Landing Gear


Walter and Mr. Yarnell (didn't sign off your mail so don't know the name)

My personal rebels empty C of G is 9.66 inches aft of datum and I can land on my tailwheel with the mains 3 feet off the ground! (must carry power so you don't smack it down doing silling things like this to your plane though). I also have the 6.00 x 6 tires on mine at 20 psi. Just a note that the straight ribbed 6.00 x 6 tires are easier to control on pavement than those DICO 8.00 x 6 turf tires with the wavy ribs. I have over 300 hours in Rebels (over 500 in tail draggers) and my landings are not always perfect either! Have you both checked that you have a minimum of 28 degrees of up elevator????? Make sure your elevator cables are not too loose so even though you have the travel, the air pressure forces it back 10 degrees or so while holding full aft stick. This is what I found on Charles Dixons! Lots of travel but cable so loose if you held full aft stick you could push the elevator down about 8 degrees. It is either that or you are not bring the stick all the way back to get a full stall landing. If you can get it slowed down a bit more and possibly carry a very small amount of power while you hover along the runway, just slowly bring the stick full aft and it should settle down on all 3 wheels at the same time.

Hope that might help you out (or down)
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt (Walter.Klatt@home.com)
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Landing Gear


What is your empty C of G at? I have been going through the same challenge with my Rebel, and have just over 27 hours on it, but also can't land it properly. Every once in a while I get a real good one, (maybe one of four), but most times the main wheels touch early, and then you get the bounce up. I think that my problem is not getting my speed low enough (65 - 70 on final and 60 over threshold with full flaps), and I float too long about a foot off the runway. Then it suddenly sinks, and the mains touch before the tail wheel unless I'm quick enough to catch it and keep pulling back to hold them off to the end. I could try the initial flare higher off the runway, which would give me more time to catch the sudden sink, but fear dropping it from too high up and bending something.
I was doing better with the tail wheel instructor, especially with full fuel, and in fact do my best landings now at gross weight. Hence, I suspect my C of G. Currently, my empty weight is at 10.67 with an O320 and battery up front.
Anyway, I would also be interested in some advice here from the long time Rebel pilots.
Yarnell Family wrote:

I am another of those people who have been lurking the Murphy list without contributing so here goes more questions than answers. My Rebel is number 298 it has an o320 and bungee gear firewall back Sensenich prop etc. etc. I met Al Colburn at Oshkosh we corresponded several times as his schedule was a little ahead of me. Good to see his plane go to such an enterprising fellow as Charles Dixon. I have about 50 hours on my plane and it is a great joy in flight but I am struggling mightily with my landings. I am a student pilot converted from ultralights my instructor is a high time tailwheel pilot. My instructor is able to make adequate landings but even his are seldom a thing of beauty. I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion on what modifications make the biggest improvement in the Rebels hard surface landing ability. I plan on taking my check ride in the rebel I built but I hate to bounce some flight examiner down the runway three or four times every time I land. My bungees are tight per Murphy my tires are those dinky little things that came with the kit I have already ordered a set of 800 6s so what is next besides practice practice practice. I wonder if charles would mind listing contact sources for the spring gear struts Adapter rings and gear pivot mod I searched the archives and didnt come up with addresses or phone numbers. Am I on the right track in thinking that a looser landing gear will make for easier hard surface landings. I understand the bungees should not be loosened without modifying the pivot points. I have been running 14lbs tire pressure now wonder what is the minimum for the bigger tires. Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

----- Original Message -----
From: rebelair (rebelair@idirect.com)
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: Landing Gear


HI There Folks

Re: Rebel landing, I agree it is not easy for awhile. I have found a few things & am in agreement with what has been said. My landings are sometimes awful, usually OK, & at times make me smile. If I don't give it my full attention & assume 'I'm a good enough pilot now and I don't need to concentrate', I get into trouble. I find that if I'm a little distracted & not thinking of the basics on final, it will be less than perfect when you touch down.

The following are my tips so take them or leave them but they do work for me with my 0320 Rebel and C of G @ 10.65" emtpy.

1/ Fly your final stabilized i.e. make sure you have flown in a stabilized final long enough to know what kind of crosswind drift correction that you need. The longer than final, I mean a good taildragger final not a 3 mile Cessna drive final, the better idea you will have of gust factors & how much you might need to correct right at the critical point of touchdown.

2/ Most important issue for me anyway, get the Rebel real close to the runway. Every bad landing I have starts from flaring too high - without question. That is where the concentration thing comes in for me. If I don't remind myself to get close before I think about touchdown, the landing will be less than good. #1 issue for me I repeat.

3/ Do not be in a hurry to touch down. You might alot of effort into building a very nice bird which the Rebel certainly is, so why set it down if the sink rate is too high, or there is any kind of drift. This is darn right dumb to force it down because you want to look good and land shorter than a Super Cub. Forget pride. Set it down when drift & sink & height above the runway are just what you want. If it is not just right, keep going down the runway until things are right. No harm, no shame go around if you are not happy. Remember, people might say that that Rebel pilot needs some practice if you go around but they will forget it in an minute. However, if you bang up your airplane by trying too hard to set it down when things are not good, they will remember you forever & also think less of the Rebels & homebuilding crowd. Lets be proud of what we have accomplished keep our flying skills high & show prudence by going around when you think it is necessary. Sorry to editorilize.

4/ I fly final at 57 miles per hour, (50 knots), any higher and you will float way too long. Any lower & the sink rate really gets your attention & you will need way too much power to arrest your sink rate. Not cool. Glider pilots will not be impressed. We should try to fly every final with the idea that engine use is not critical to a safe landing i.e. you should not need 1500 RPM to drag it in per you know who (Cessna pilots).

5/ When you flare, use just the smallest amount of power blip, say 200 RPM, just to arrest the sink rate. By a blip, I mean just rev it. 200 RPM for a moment, that will arrest the sink rate & set you into ground effect for long enough to determine left or right drift.

6/ Right after the power blip, if your drift is too high, add just enough power to keep the plane flying in ground effect so that you have enough time to correct the drift with cross control. When the drift is neutral, then kill the power & let it settle in.

7/ For me, you must force yourself to fly in ground effect briefly to ensure that sink rate & drift are just what you want. Do not hurry this. Once you are comfortable, & if the threshold permits, you can do much of this before you reach the runway threshold ensuring that you do not land long.

8/ My best landings occur when I have sink rate arrested, fly in ground effect long enough to ensure drift is zero & the aircraft is stable, & when that ground effect height is minimized. I have a good friend who is an excellent pilot, much better than I will ever be tell me that his instructor taught him to fly down the runway and minimum height for the entire runway in crosswind but not land. He kept practicing this until he felt comfortable flying a few feet above the runway in stable flight with drift corrected. If you are really concerned about making better landings a flight instructor or very competent tailwheel pilot could help you in this.

9/ Also, my best landings often occur with the tailwheel touching down first. I don't know if this is recommended but I have not had a bad landing when the tailwheel touches down first in relatively stable conditions. You should just be able to feel it & then the mains will touch shortly thereafter but feel for it.

10/ Try landing on grass for a while. This is a great confidence builder. It is easier to land on as I believe there is more warning when the wheels are going to touch down. It is of course much easier on the airplane as wheel. I have had a few very bad landings on asphalt landing on one wheel during a good crosswind & the airplane skitters sideways on the tire. Not a good thing & I am embarrassed to mention it but will happen again. During crosswind landings, I find I often use full opposite aileron to correct drift & it still does not feel like there is enough. Keep the ailerons turned into the wind until at least the aircraft is slowed right down. It has surprised as to how slow you must go before the ailerons do not need to be turned into the wind fully during crosswind landings.

11/ My friend Ron had difficulty landing for sometime until he got both enough up elevator as Wayne mentioned & also his C of G far enough back. My up elevator is 35 degrees & this is great. Down is about 20 & that is more than enough. My C of G with me aboard, ( I am 2 times the size of a normal human), does move the C of G back & I almost always fly out of the upper half of the tanks which again moves the C of G back considerably.

12/ Almost forgot, when I don't concentrate, I forgot what I was shown on the Super Cub. Just when you touch down, the stick should be moving back at a reasonable rate & you must pull it all the way back & hold it there. On the Super Cub, if you did not, you were going flying again - right away. The Rebel is more forgiving but you still must get that stick back & hold it there at least until the speed gets right down.

13/ Forget about using the brakes until everything else works out for you. I lifted the tail end of the Super Cub up in the air once trying to get off the runway too soon. And that was with the terrible heel brakes on our local Piper. That scared me a bit. With the great brakes on the Rebel - i.e. the upgraded Murphy wheels & brakes, I am sure that you could lift the tail easily. I am sure that Wayne has done this & it does not bother him but I would not recommend it.

14/ When you are landing, I find that you must focus a few hundred feet down the runway. I believe this helps your peripherial vision give you feedback & of course you are watching the runway centreline so that you can immediately sense left or right drift depending upon crosswind. Also, I find that if I sit up straighter just before landing, focus ahead exactly the same distance each time you land, the visual clues will come sooner. Try to do the same thing each time so that you will also know & can correct if something does not look right.

15/ Practice. Don't be afraid if the people at your airport laugh at you because you spend the next 3 months in the circuit. The object is to become a better pilot. You are only in competion with yourself so to speak. You want to become a better & safer pilot. So that means practice. Then when you do get a tough crosswind landing say at night or dusk etc. you will have confidence, & this will help. A nervous uptight pilot cannot make good landings I don' think.

I don't mean to sound like a great oracle or anything. I know after saying all this, I will probably go out & ground loop the next time that I am out there.

I am just trying to help out. The Rebel is a fantastic airplane & I don't want to hear about anybody bending their beloved bird.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea [mailto:oifa@irishfield.on.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 10:05 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Landing Gear


Walter and Mr. Yarnell (didn't sign off your mail so don't know the name)

My personal rebels empty C of G is 9.66 inches aft of datum and I can land on my tailwheel with the mains 3 feet off the ground! (must carry power so you don't smack it down doing silling things like this to your plane though). I also have the 6.00 x 6 tires on mine at 20 psi. Just a note that the straight ribbed 6.00 x 6 tires are easier to control on pavement than those DICO 8.00 x 6 turf tires with the wavy ribs. I have over 300 hours in Rebels (over 500 in tail draggers) and my landings are not always perfect either! Have you both checked that you have a minimum of 28 degrees of up elevator????? Make sure your elevator cables are not too loose so even though you have the travel, the air pressure forces it back 10 degrees or so while holding full aft stick. This is what I found on Charles Dixons! Lots of travel but cable so loose if you held full aft stick you could push the elevator down about 8 degrees. It is either that or you are not bring the stick all the way back to get a full stall landing. If you can get it slowed down a bit more and possibly carry a very small amount of power while you hover along the runway, just slowly bring the stick full aft and it should settle down on all 3 wheels at the same time.

Hope that might help you out (or down)
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt (Walter.Klatt@home.com)
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Landing Gear


What is your empty C of G at? I have been going through the same challenge with my Rebel, and have just over 27 hours on it, but also can't land it properly. Every once in a while I get a real good one, (maybe one of four), but most times the main wheels touch early, and then you get the bounce up. I think that my problem is not getting my speed low enough (65 - 70 on final and 60 over threshold with full flaps), and I float too long about a foot off the runway. Then it suddenly sinks, and the mains touch before the tail wheel unless I'm quick enough to catch it and keep pulling back to hold them off to the end. I could try the initial flare higher off the runway, which would give me more time to catch the sudden sink, but fear dropping it from too high up and bending something.
I was doing better with the tail wheel instructor, especially with full fuel, and in fact do my best landings now at gross weight. Hence, I suspect my C of G. Currently, my empty weight is at 10.67 with an O320 and battery up front.
Anyway, I would also be interested in some advice here from the long time Rebel pilots.
Yarnell Family wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea [mailto:oifa@irishfield.on.ca]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 10:38 AM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Landing Gear


Brian, every thought of being an instructor???? Sounds like you have got it figured out and can even explain it! I just head for the deck and take what ever I get! (and yes I have busted my plane in half once before!)

Blue skies,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: rebelair (rebelair@idirect.com)
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: Landing Gear


Hi Wayne

Thanks for your kind response. I guess if you read between the lines, I have spent too much time in the circuit! However, I enjoy flying the aircraft so much & also spent so much building it, I don't want to make a dumb mistake & bend the airplane & embarass myself. It would take me far too long to repair if I did so I probably would give you a call to get you to fix it for me.

By the way, for your conversation with Alister, it sounds like MAM now has a bulletin re: your tailpost/FUS31 fix. Is this on their website?

Take care

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea [mailto:oifa@irishfield.on.ca]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 10:38 AM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Landing Gear


Brian, every thought of being an instructor???? Sounds like you have got it figured out and can even explain it! I just head for the deck and take what ever I get! (and yes I have busted my plane in half once before!)

Blue skies,
Wayne

I am another of those people who have been lurking the Murphy list without contributing so here goes more questions than answers. My Rebel is number 298 it has an o320 and bungee gear firewall back Sensenich prop etc. etc. I met Al Colburn at Oshkosh we corresponded several times as his schedule was a little ahead of me. Good to see his plane go to such an enterprising fellow as Charles Dixon. I have about 50 hours on my plane and it is a great joy in flight but I am struggling mightily with my landings. I am a student pilot converted from ultralights my instructor is a high time tailwheel pilot. My instructor is able to make adequate landings but even his are seldom a thing of beauty. I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion on what modifications make the biggest improvement in the Rebels hard surface landing ability. I plan on taking my check ride in the rebel I built but I hate to bounce some flight examiner down the runway three or four times every time I land. My bungees are tight per Murphy my tires are those dinky little things that came with the kit I have already ordered a set of 800 6s so what is next besides practice practice practice. I wonder if charles would mind listing contact sources for the spring gear struts Adapter rings and gear pivot mod I searched the archives and didnt come up with addresses or phone numbers. Am I on the right track in thinking that a looser landing gear will make for easier hard surface landings. I understand the bungees should not be loosened without modifying the pivot points. I have been running 14lbs tire pressure now wonder what is the minimum for the bigger tires. Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

Is there a disadvantage to the spring gear Murphy offers for the Rebel vs.
the standard bungee gear?

Is there a disadvantage to the spring gear Murphy offers for the Rebel

the standard bungee gear?

John...



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fly too low or too slow and the ground will rise up and smite thee.






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