100ll vs auto fuel

[Rebflyer]

Hi Bob,
Just a quick question. Are you familiar with a FBO that has done a basic study on auto fuel in new engines and first using 100ll for the lead? I vaguely remember somthing on that, and I believe that this person had even developed an additive. I think he ope
rates seaplanes and is a repair staton as well. If you can give me a heads up on who and where I'd sure appreciate it. Curt N97MR



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Curt !

Sounds like Ron Newburg. He ran Canadian Aero Engines, supplying
homebuilt engines for Rebels, and was a guest speaker at a Rebel Builders
meeting a few years ago.

Ron felt that, based on the engines they had come in for
rebuilding, older engines accumulated lead in the pores of the block
and pistons. This accumulated lead leached out gradually when running
auto fuel, providing some lubrication, but was exhaused over a couple
of years, causing valve problems. Newer engines had valve problems
much sooner on auto fuel, because they lacked the 'stored' lead.

His solution to that was a new lubricant designed just for
this application. He now runs Canadian Aero Mfg., and sells this
stuff as ' "AVP" - Aviation Valve Protectant'. It is about $49 for
8 OZ. - enough to treat 640 US Gallons !! Just a few drops per tankfull
will do the job, according to Ron !!

The address is;
Canadian Aero Mfg.,
2648 Ego Side Road, R.R. #3,
Orillia, ON L3V 6H3

Phone: (705) 326-1368

Sounds like you're figuring on running mogas, now that you're
on floats - many Rebels do. It's still good to run a tankfull of
100 LL about every third fillup, though .....

......bobp

----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 08:09 PM 8/25/01 EDT, you wrote:

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Hi Bob,
Just a quick question. Are you familiar with a FBO that has done a basic

study on auto fuel in new engines and first using 100ll for the lead? I
vaguely remember somthing on that, and I believe that this person had even
developed an additive. I think he ope

rates seaplanes and is a repair staton as well. If you can give me a heads

up on who and where I'd sure appreciate it. Curt N97MR

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[Drew and Jan]

Bob how well does the pro-seal hold up with auto fuel? I've always used 80
avgas if available and 100LL otherwise but I'm scared to try mogas in case
it causes my tanks to leak
Drew

At 05:05 PM 8/28/01 -0400, you wrote:

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Hi Curt !

Sounds like Ron Newburg. He ran Canadian Aero Engines, supplying
homebuilt engines for Rebels, and was a guest speaker at a Rebel Builders
meeting a few years ago.

Ron felt that, based on the engines they had come in for
rebuilding, older engines accumulated lead in the pores of the block
and pistons. This accumulated lead leached out gradually when running
auto fuel, providing some lubrication, but was exhaused over a couple
of years, causing valve problems. Newer engines had valve problems
much sooner on auto fuel, because they lacked the 'stored' lead.

His solution to that was a new lubricant designed just for
this application. He now runs Canadian Aero Mfg., and sells this
stuff as ' "AVP" - Aviation Valve Protectant'. It is about $49 for
8 OZ. - enough to treat 640 US Gallons !! Just a few drops per tankfull
will do the job, according to Ron !!

The address is;
Canadian Aero Mfg.,
2648 Ego Side Road, R.R. #3,
Orillia, ON L3V 6H3

Phone: (705) 326-1368

Sounds like you're figuring on running mogas, now that you're
on floats - many Rebels do. It's still good to run a tankfull of
100 LL about every third fillup, though .....

......bobp

----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 08:09 PM 8/25/01 EDT, you wrote:

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Hi Bob,
Just a quick question. Are you familiar with a FBO that has done a basic

study on auto fuel in new engines and first using 100ll for the lead? I
vaguely remember somthing on that, and I believe that this person had even
developed an additive. I think he ope

rates seaplanes and is a repair staton as well. If you can give me a heads

up on who and where I'd sure appreciate it. Curt N97MR

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[Rebflyer]

Hi Bob,
As always , thanks for the info! Actually, what brought this about was the
fact that I just took my seaplane rating ride.(in the US you take the
instruction and then have to take a check ride with a FAA examiner) And the
person I rode with had just installed a factory rebuilt 0-320 in his PA-12
and was already running auto fuel in it. I mentioned the lead thing to him,
and I wanted to back it up with a little solid info. I will definately pass
this on to him.
The ride was a great deal of fun. Saw a couple of bald eagles soaring during
it all. Now I'm doing the last of the Rebel prep (and my prep) to get 97MR
wet. It still flys great with the boats on the bottom, and I'm getting
anxious waiting for my instrustor to come back from playing in Apache
helicoptors. I need him mostly for the insurance company. Anyway, thanks
again Curt N97MR

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Drew !

I've used mogas for many years with no problems with ProSeal.
I usually run one tank of 100 LL, and the other with mogas - apparently
they don't mix too well. Anyway, this lets me use the 100 ll for
takeoff & climb, where the engine is hot & working hard, and the
mogas for cruise and economy. Since 100 LL has FOUR TIMES as much lead
as the old 80 octane, one tank of 100 for every 2 or 3 of mogas seems like
a fair balance.

The only caution is: I ONLY use Shell Bronze or Shell Gold -
as far as I know, they are the ONLY auto fuels that DON'T have
alcohol added ! Seriously, I feel much safer using Shell than I
would running the 80 octane you get in Southern Ontario - I've had
BAD gas several times from those distributors ! It ate my fuel lines !
(That was several years ago - I haven't risked it since !)

.....bobp

-----------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 06:11 PM 8/28/01 -0400, you wrote:

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Bob how well does the pro-seal hold up with auto fuel? I've always used 80
avgas if available and 100LL otherwise but I'm scared to try mogas in case
it causes my tanks to leak
Drew

At 05:05 PM 8/28/01 -0400, you wrote:

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Hi Curt !

Sounds like Ron Newburg. He ran Canadian Aero Engines, supplying
homebuilt engines for Rebels, and was a guest speaker at a Rebel Builders
meeting a few years ago.

Ron felt that, based on the engines they had come in for
rebuilding, older engines accumulated lead in the pores of the block
and pistons. This accumulated lead leached out gradually when running
auto fuel, providing some lubrication, but was exhaused over a couple
of years, causing valve problems. Newer engines had valve problems
much sooner on auto fuel, because they lacked the 'stored' lead.

His solution to that was a new lubricant designed just for
this application. He now runs Canadian Aero Mfg., and sells this
stuff as ' "AVP" - Aviation Valve Protectant'. It is about $49 for
8 OZ. - enough to treat 640 US Gallons !! Just a few drops per tankfull
will do the job, according to Ron !!

The address is;
Canadian Aero Mfg.,
2648 Ego Side Road, R.R. #3,
Orillia, ON L3V 6H3

Phone: (705) 326-1368

Sounds like you're figuring on running mogas, now that you're
on floats - many Rebels do. It's still good to run a tankfull of
100 LL about every third fillup, though .....

......bobp

----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 08:09 PM 8/25/01 EDT, you wrote:

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*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Hi Bob,
Just a quick question. Are you familiar with a FBO that has done a basic

study on auto fuel in new engines and first using 100ll for the lead? I
vaguely remember somthing on that, and I believe that this person had even
developed an additive. I think he ope

rates seaplanes and is a repair staton as well. If you can give me a heads

up on who and where I'd sure appreciate it. Curt N97MR

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Curt !

You will definitely help the fellow keep his engine running
longer, either by using some 100 ll, or the AVP..... Without something,
the valves 'spot-weld' themselves to the seat, and pull chunks out of it !

You're going to LOVE the Rebel on the water !!! :-) :-)

Hope to see you at the MERFI fly-in, and the next Builders meeting,
on Sept. 16 th...... (We're still on wheels - boo hoo ! sniffle ! )

.....bobp

-------------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 10:10 PM 8/28/01 EDT, you wrote:

Hi Bob,
As always , thanks for the info! Actually, what brought this about was the
fact that I just took my seaplane rating ride.(in the US you take the
instruction and then have to take a check ride with a FAA examiner) And the
person I rode with had just installed a factory rebuilt 0-320 in his PA-12
and was already running auto fuel in it. I mentioned the lead thing to him,
and I wanted to back it up with a little solid info. I will definately pass
this on to him.
The ride was a great deal of fun. Saw a couple of bald eagles soaring during
it all. Now I'm doing the last of the Rebel prep (and my prep) to get 97MR
wet. It still flys great with the boats on the bottom, and I'm getting
anxious waiting for my instrustor to come back from playing in Apache
helicoptors. I need him mostly for the insurance company. Anyway, thanks
again Curt N97MR
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Bob,
<BR> &nbsp;As always , thanks for the info! &nbsp;Actually, what brought

this about was the

<BR>fact that I just took my seaplane rating ride.(in the US you take the
<BR>instruction and then have to take a check ride with a FAA examiner) And

the

<BR>person I rode with had just installed a factory rebuilt 0-320 in his PA-12
<BR>and was already running auto fuel in it. I mentioned the lead thing to

him,

<BR>and I wanted to back it up with a little solid info. I will definately

pass

<BR>this on to him.
<BR> The ride was a great deal of fun. Saw a couple of bald eagles soaring

during

<BR>it all. Now I'm doing the last of the Rebel prep (and my prep) to get 97MR
<BR>wet. It still flys great with the boats on the bottom, and I'm getting
<BR>anxious waiting for my instrustor to come back from playing in Apache
<BR>helicoptors. I need him mostly for the insurance company. &nbsp;Anyway,

thanks

<BR>again &nbsp;Curt N97MR</FONT></HTML>

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[Drew and Jan]

Thanks Bob I knew that alcohol was bad news for pro-seal but I didn't know
shell was always safe. The 80 octane in southern ont. comes from a
different refinery than it used to so maybe it's better now. That said I
just changed my sight guage on the one side and the new line went hard in
only a couple of days.
Drew

At 11:16 AM 8/29/01 -0400, you wrote:

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Hi Drew !

I've used mogas for many years with no problems with ProSeal.
I usually run one tank of 100 LL, and the other with mogas - apparently
they don't mix too well. Anyway, this lets me use the 100 ll for
takeoff & climb, where the engine is hot & working hard, and the
mogas for cruise and economy. Since 100 LL has FOUR TIMES as much lead
as the old 80 octane, one tank of 100 for every 2 or 3 of mogas seems like
a fair balance.

The only caution is: I ONLY use Shell Bronze or Shell Gold -
as far as I know, they are the ONLY auto fuels that DON'T have
alcohol added ! Seriously, I feel much safer using Shell than I
would running the 80 octane you get in Southern Ontario - I've had
BAD gas several times from those distributors ! It ate my fuel lines !
(That was several years ago - I haven't risked it since !)

.....bobp

-----------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 06:11 PM 8/28/01 -0400, you wrote:

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Bob how well does the pro-seal hold up with auto fuel? I've always used 80
avgas if available and 100LL otherwise but I'm scared to try mogas in case
it causes my tanks to leak
Drew

At 05:05 PM 8/28/01 -0400, you wrote:

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Hi Curt !

Sounds like Ron Newburg. He ran Canadian Aero Engines, supplying
homebuilt engines for Rebels, and was a guest speaker at a Rebel Builders
meeting a few years ago.

Ron felt that, based on the engines they had come in for
rebuilding, older engines accumulated lead in the pores of the block
and pistons. This accumulated lead leached out gradually when running
auto fuel, providing some lubrication, but was exhaused over a couple
of years, causing valve problems. Newer engines had valve problems
much sooner on auto fuel, because they lacked the 'stored' lead.

His solution to that was a new lubricant designed just for
this application. He now runs Canadian Aero Mfg., and sells this
stuff as ' "AVP" - Aviation Valve Protectant'. It is about $49 for
8 OZ. - enough to treat 640 US Gallons !! Just a few drops per tankfull
will do the job, according to Ron !!

The address is;
Canadian Aero Mfg.,
2648 Ego Side Road, R.R. #3,
Orillia, ON L3V 6H3

Phone: (705) 326-1368

Sounds like you're figuring on running mogas, now that you're
on floats - many Rebels do. It's still good to run a tankfull of
100 LL about every third fillup, though .....

......bobp

----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 08:09 PM 8/25/01 EDT, you wrote:

--*

--*

study on auto fuel in new engines and first using 100ll for the lead? I
vaguely remember somthing on that, and I believe that this person had even
developed an additive. I think he ope up on who and where I'd sure appreciate it. Curt N97MR

--*

--*

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[Mike Kimball]

I didn't know Pro-seal couldn't take alcohol! I was told to be very careful
about using sloshing compounds but thought that Pro-seal was good for all
fuels, even if it contained alcohol.

Mike Kimball
SR#044

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Drew and Jan
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:12 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 100ll vs auto fuel


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Thanks Bob I knew that alcohol was bad news for pro-seal but I didn't know
shell was always safe. The 80 octane in southern ont. comes from a
different refinery than it used to so maybe it's better now. That said I
just changed my sight guage on the one side and the new line went hard in
only a couple of days.
Drew

At 11:16 AM 8/29/01 -0400, you wrote:

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Hi Drew !

I've used mogas for many years with no problems with ProSeal.
I usually run one tank of 100 LL, and the other with mogas - apparently
they don't mix too well. Anyway, this lets me use the 100 ll for
takeoff & climb, where the engine is hot & working hard, and the
mogas for cruise and economy. Since 100 LL has FOUR TIMES as much lead
as the old 80 octane, one tank of 100 for every 2 or 3 of mogas seems like
a fair balance.

The only caution is: I ONLY use Shell Bronze or Shell Gold -
as far as I know, they are the ONLY auto fuels that DON'T have
alcohol added ! Seriously, I feel much safer using Shell than I
would running the 80 octane you get in Southern Ontario - I've had
BAD gas several times from those distributors ! It ate my fuel lines !
(That was several years ago - I haven't risked it since !)

.....bobp

-----------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 06:11 PM 8/28/01 -0400, you wrote:

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*

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*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*

Bob how well does the pro-seal hold up with auto fuel? I've always used 80
avgas if available and 100LL otherwise but I'm scared to try mogas in case
it causes my tanks to leak
Drew

At 05:05 PM 8/28/01 -0400, you wrote:

*------------------------------------------------------------------------

-*

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*------------------------------------------------------------------------

-*

Hi Curt !

Sounds like Ron Newburg. He ran Canadian Aero Engines, supplying
homebuilt engines for Rebels, and was a guest speaker at a Rebel Builders
meeting a few years ago.

Ron felt that, based on the engines they had come in for
rebuilding, older engines accumulated lead in the pores of the block
and pistons. This accumulated lead leached out gradually when running
auto fuel, providing some lubrication, but was exhaused over a couple
of years, causing valve problems. Newer engines had valve problems
much sooner on auto fuel, because they lacked the 'stored' lead.

His solution to that was a new lubricant designed just for
this application. He now runs Canadian Aero Mfg., and sells this
stuff as ' "AVP" - Aviation Valve Protectant'. It is about $49 for
8 OZ. - enough to treat 640 US Gallons !! Just a few drops per tankfull
will do the job, according to Ron !!

The address is;
Canadian Aero Mfg.,
2648 Ego Side Road, R.R. #3,
Orillia, ON L3V 6H3

Phone: (705) 326-1368

Sounds like you're figuring on running mogas, now that you're
on floats - many Rebels do. It's still good to run a tankfull of
100 LL about every third fillup, though .....

......bobp

----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 08:09 PM 8/25/01 EDT, you wrote:

--*

--*

basic

study on auto fuel in new engines and first using 100ll for the lead? I
vaguely remember somthing on that, and I believe that this person had

even

developed an additive. I think he ope

heads

up on who and where I'd sure appreciate it. Curt N97MR

--*

list-server@dcsol.com

--*

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[klehman]

Within the last month I have read an article somewhere on sight gauges
(concerning a fatal ultralight accident). I will look for it but it said to use
urethane tubing only. Tygothane was mentioned I believe, but Spruce lists a
couple of urethane tubing lines in most sizes. Anything else (except maybe
teflon) will apparently harden and shrink fairly quickly.

The manufacturer is adamant that pump gas containing alcohol will not harm
pro-seal in any way. There are other very good reasons to avoid alcohol though
and I think there is still a lot of info on the EAA web site. The alcohol rap
probably comes from problems with sloshing compounds not pro-seal.

In Southern Ontario there is usually a small sticker saying "may contain up to
10% alcohol" on any gas pump that has alcohol in it. I have never seen the
sticker on an Esso pump or a Shell pump here. Sunoco and Coop definately have
them. Pretty easy to check for alcohol yourself to make sure.

The Cessna Pilots Association has claimed significantly lower maintanance costs
if you avoid leaded fuel (US$10./hr). For an engine that can burn 80/87 there is
evidence to suggest that using leaded fuel occasionally, or mixing it, provides
almost all the benefits and reduces the negative effects of using it. The only
problem that I can recall with mixing avgas and mogas was related to anti-icing
additives in the avgas and alcohol in mogas??? We certainly mix them frequently
but no alcohol.

Ken

Drew and Jan wrote:

Thanks Bob I knew that alcohol was bad news for pro-seal but I didn't know
shell was always safe. The 80 octane in southern ont. comes from a
different refinery than it used to so maybe it's better now. That said I
just changed my sight guage on the one side and the new line went hard in
only a couple of days.
Drew

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[Drew and Jan]

Thanks Ken. I believe it was Bill Tee that wrote quite a lot on sight
guages for the RAA several years ago. tygothane was the only clear tubing
he recommended. I spent a lot of time finding a source for it in London and
it was quite expensive which I wouldn't have minded except it went hard in
about 3 months. A freind with a homebuilt cub suggested ski doo gas line
and I have used it for the last year with it only going half hard at the
end of the year.This tubing has a pink tinge to it but when I went to buy
more the dealer had changed suppliers and was now selling clear stuff. Of
course he told me he switched because the new stuff is better and that all
his customers love it. THis is the tubing I had go hard in only a couple of
days. I'm going to try a different snowmobile dealer and whatever tubing I
buy I'm going to soak a peice of it in a bottle of gas for at least a week
and check for changes before I instal it on my plane.
Drew

At 02:23 PM 8/30/01 -0400, you wrote:

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Within the last month I have read an article somewhere on sight gauges
(concerning a fatal ultralight accident). I will look for it but it said

to use

urethane tubing only. Tygothane was mentioned I believe, but Spruce lists a
couple of urethane tubing lines in most sizes. Anything else (except maybe
teflon) will apparently harden and shrink fairly quickly.

The manufacturer is adamant that pump gas containing alcohol will not harm
pro-seal in any way. There are other very good reasons to avoid alcohol

though

and I think there is still a lot of info on the EAA web site. The alcohol rap
probably comes from problems with sloshing compounds not pro-seal.

In Southern Ontario there is usually a small sticker saying "may contain

up to

10% alcohol" on any gas pump that has alcohol in it. I have never seen the
sticker on an Esso pump or a Shell pump here. Sunoco and Coop definately have
them. Pretty easy to check for alcohol yourself to make sure.

The Cessna Pilots Association has claimed significantly lower maintanance

costs

if you avoid leaded fuel (US$10./hr). For an engine that can burn 80/87

there is

evidence to suggest that using leaded fuel occasionally, or mixing it,

provides

almost all the benefits and reduces the negative effects of using it. The

only

problem that I can recall with mixing avgas and mogas was related to

anti-icing

additives in the avgas and alcohol in mogas??? We certainly mix them

frequently

but no alcohol.

Ken

Drew and Jan wrote:

Thanks Bob I knew that alcohol was bad news for pro-seal but I didn't know
shell was always safe. The 80 octane in southern ont. comes from a
different refinery than it used to so maybe it's better now. That said I
just changed my sight guage on the one side and the new line went hard in
only a couple of days.
Drew

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Before you guys/gals go playing with all different "brands" of clear line
you had better decide which fuel you are going to use and STICK WITH IT
(unless filling with something else is the only way you can get home)! When
I was refurbishing C-FOKM, I removed all the rock solid sight gauge tubing
when I relocated the lower sight gauge fitting, after removing it from the
main outlet line and replaced them including a new cross vent tube. I soaked
numerous different types of readily available (read Home hardware, CTC etc)
tubing in 100LL and Premium Autofuel. The "skidoo" fuel line stuff
immediately yellows and turns hard (I'm talking minutes!) in 100LL (thanks
to the toluene), but stays soft and pliable in Auto fuel. The potable water
PVC stuff from H Hardware hardened/turned grey in Autofuel very quickly, but
seemed to stay pretty good (not great) with 100LL so that's what I used. It
is probably going to go hard also over time, but it was the best of locally
available items that can be easily replaced the same day, with no wait from
a supplier in California or similar. I don't think any of the hose available
is going to stand up to those of you that run what every pump you happen to
pull up to, inside the fence or outside (although they don't let you do that
at Drummond Island anymore do they Bob!). Also no guarantee that you will
actually get the fuel you are paying for either, as I got bad 100LL in
Escanaba Michigan on the way to OSH in 1995. It was cut with alcohol and who
knows what else!! Aircraft running Autofuel also usually rot the feed line
from the gascolator to the carb much quicker than when running AV gas. This
can be a neglected item as it is not readily "inspectable" thanks to the
manditory requirement of the MDRA program to hide that line under
firesleeve.

Bob had a bad experience with 80/87 from ----ond, but I kept my 500 gallon
tank filled with their product from 1994 to 1999 and couldn't have used a
better product. Excellent engine running, no lead build up on plugs, no
valve problems found during bi-annual compression tests etc. I had to switch
to 100LL to feed the Supercharged engines on the UTVA's, so now I do a LOT
of leaning to keep the plugs clean in my Rebel. If and when I ever sell both
of them, I will probably switch back to their 80/87 (even though it is 2 or
3 cents more a liter than 100LL).

Just my 2 cents, no law suits please if you mileage varies!!! That's why I
installed COMPLETE aluminum lines (from tanks to gascolator) and electric
senders in my tanks (that I rarely pay attention to unless they suddenly say
"E", as I dip before each flight and know how far that will get me). No
clear or rubber lines to contend with (other than gascolator to carb)
ALTHOUGH I really have to admit I have liked flying the refurbs I did with
the visual sight gauges(although they are not accurate either when running a
ram air vent in the cross vent line!!)

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew and Jan" <drewjan@execulink.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: 100ll vs auto fuel


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Thanks Ken. I believe it was Bill Tee that wrote quite a lot on sight
guages for the RAA several years ago. tygothane was the only clear tubing
he recommended. I spent a lot of time finding a source for it in London

and

it was quite expensive which I wouldn't have minded except it went hard in
about 3 months. A freind with a homebuilt cub suggested ski doo gas line
and I have used it for the last year with it only going half hard at the
end of the year.This tubing has a pink tinge to it but when I went to buy
more the dealer had changed suppliers and was now selling clear stuff. Of
course he told me he switched because the new stuff is better and that all
his customers love it. THis is the tubing I had go hard in only a couple

of

days. I'm going to try a different snowmobile dealer and whatever tubing I
buy I'm going to soak a peice of it in a bottle of gas for at least a week
and check for changes before I instal it on my plane.
Drew

At 02:23 PM 8/30/01 -0400, you wrote:

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username: rebel password: builder

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Within the last month I have read an article somewhere on sight gauges
(concerning a fatal ultralight accident). I will look for it but it said

to use

urethane tubing only. Tygothane was mentioned I believe, but Spruce lists

a

couple of urethane tubing lines in most sizes. Anything else (except

maybe

teflon) will apparently harden and shrink fairly quickly.

The manufacturer is adamant that pump gas containing alcohol will not

harm

pro-seal in any way. There are other very good reasons to avoid alcohol

though

and I think there is still a lot of info on the EAA web site. The alcohol

rap

probably comes from problems with sloshing compounds not pro-seal.

In Southern Ontario there is usually a small sticker saying "may contain

up to

10% alcohol" on any gas pump that has alcohol in it. I have never seen

the

sticker on an Esso pump or a Shell pump here. Sunoco and Coop definately

have

them. Pretty easy to check for alcohol yourself to make sure.

The Cessna Pilots Association has claimed significantly lower maintanance

costs

if you avoid leaded fuel (US$10./hr). For an engine that can burn 80/87

there is

evidence to suggest that using leaded fuel occasionally, or mixing it,

provides

almost all the benefits and reduces the negative effects of using it. The

only

problem that I can recall with mixing avgas and mogas was related to

anti-icing

additives in the avgas and alcohol in mogas??? We certainly mix them

frequently

but no alcohol.

Ken

Drew and Jan wrote:

Thanks Bob I knew that alcohol was bad news for pro-seal but I didn't

know

shell was always safe. The 80 octane in southern ont. comes from a
different refinery than it used to so maybe it's better now. That said

I

just changed my sight guage on the one side and the new line went hard

in

only a couple of days.
Drew

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[Bob Patterson]

I also had bad 100 LL from that supplier - and others !
I've run clear tubing that stayed soft & clear for 4 years, then
had it go yellow & brown & brittle in 3 days, after some bad gas !!!

A few years ago, I bought some "special fuel line" from LEAF
or CalPower ... at OSH. Worked OK, but the blue colour made it hard
to see the fuel. Stayed soft for a couple of years - then - one bad
tankful of 100 LL, and it turned stiff & discoloured. It had both
Shell Gold and 100 LL during those years, without problems.

We got some bad 100 LL at Schoolcraft this year heading west
in the Super Rebel - I think there's a lot more bad gas out there
than there used to be ! Maybe the volumes are down because of cost,
or operators are reluctant to dump bad stuff & lose money ....
The same may be true of premium auto fuel, as there sure are a lot
fewer cars out there needing it, and sales must be down.

I have observed that car gas has changed considerably over the
last 5 years. I can't leave it in the tanks over a winter and expect
it to run anymore !! All that's left is an oily corrosive liquid
that kills grass - it will just barely run IF you can get the engine
started !! I just drain the tanks in the spring & put fresh stuff in...

Don't have any definite answers - just keep an eye on the
tubing, and replace it when it discolours ! Be careful !!

.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 07:44 PM 8/30/01 -0400, you wrote:

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http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Before you guys/gals go playing with all different "brands" of clear line
you had better decide which fuel you are going to use and STICK WITH IT
(unless filling with something else is the only way you can get home)! When
I was refurbishing C-FOKM, I removed all the rock solid sight gauge tubing
when I relocated the lower sight gauge fitting, after removing it from the
main outlet line and replaced them including a new cross vent tube. I soaked
numerous different types of readily available (read Home hardware, CTC etc)
tubing in 100LL and Premium Autofuel. The "skidoo" fuel line stuff
immediately yellows and turns hard (I'm talking minutes!) in 100LL (thanks
to the toluene), but stays soft and pliable in Auto fuel. The potable water
PVC stuff from H Hardware hardened/turned grey in Autofuel very quickly, but
seemed to stay pretty good (not great) with 100LL so that's what I used. It
is probably going to go hard also over time, but it was the best of locally
available items that can be easily replaced the same day, with no wait from
a supplier in California or similar. I don't think any of the hose available
is going to stand up to those of you that run what every pump you happen to
pull up to, inside the fence or outside (although they don't let you do that
at Drummond Island anymore do they Bob!). Also no guarantee that you will
actually get the fuel you are paying for either, as I got bad 100LL in
Escanaba Michigan on the way to OSH in 1995. It was cut with alcohol and who
knows what else!! Aircraft running Autofuel also usually rot the feed line
from the gascolator to the carb much quicker than when running AV gas. This
can be a neglected item as it is not readily "inspectable" thanks to the
manditory requirement of the MDRA program to hide that line under
firesleeve.

Bob had a bad experience with 80/87 from ----ond, but I kept my 500 gallon
tank filled with their product from 1994 to 1999 and couldn't have used a
better product. Excellent engine running, no lead build up on plugs, no
valve problems found during bi-annual compression tests etc. I had to switch
to 100LL to feed the Supercharged engines on the UTVA's, so now I do a LOT
of leaning to keep the plugs clean in my Rebel. If and when I ever sell both
of them, I will probably switch back to their 80/87 (even though it is 2 or
3 cents more a liter than 100LL).

Just my 2 cents, no law suits please if you mileage varies!!! That's why I
installed COMPLETE aluminum lines (from tanks to gascolator) and electric
senders in my tanks (that I rarely pay attention to unless they suddenly say
"E", as I dip before each flight and know how far that will get me). No
clear or rubber lines to contend with (other than gascolator to carb)
ALTHOUGH I really have to admit I have liked flying the refurbs I did with
the visual sight gauges(although they are not accurate either when running a
ram air vent in the cross vent line!!)

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew and Jan" <drewjan@execulink.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: 100ll vs auto fuel


*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

The list archives are located at:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Thanks Ken. I believe it was Bill Tee that wrote quite a lot on sight
guages for the RAA several years ago. tygothane was the only clear tubing
he recommended. I spent a lot of time finding a source for it in London

and

it was quite expensive which I wouldn't have minded except it went hard in
about 3 months. A freind with a homebuilt cub suggested ski doo gas line
and I have used it for the last year with it only going half hard at the
end of the year.This tubing has a pink tinge to it but when I went to buy
more the dealer had changed suppliers and was now selling clear stuff. Of
course he told me he switched because the new stuff is better and that all
his customers love it. THis is the tubing I had go hard in only a couple

of

days. I'm going to try a different snowmobile dealer and whatever tubing I
buy I'm going to soak a peice of it in a bottle of gas for at least a week
and check for changes before I instal it on my plane.
Drew

At 02:23 PM 8/30/01 -0400, you wrote:

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username: rebel password: builder

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Within the last month I have read an article somewhere on sight gauges
(concerning a fatal ultralight accident). I will look for it but it said

to use

urethane tubing only. Tygothane was mentioned I believe, but Spruce lists

a

couple of urethane tubing lines in most sizes. Anything else (except

maybe

teflon) will apparently harden and shrink fairly quickly.

The manufacturer is adamant that pump gas containing alcohol will not

harm

pro-seal in any way. There are other very good reasons to avoid alcohol

though

and I think there is still a lot of info on the EAA web site. The alcohol

rap

probably comes from problems with sloshing compounds not pro-seal.

In Southern Ontario there is usually a small sticker saying "may contain

up to

10% alcohol" on any gas pump that has alcohol in it. I have never seen

the

sticker on an Esso pump or a Shell pump here. Sunoco and Coop definately

have

them. Pretty easy to check for alcohol yourself to make sure.

The Cessna Pilots Association has claimed significantly lower maintanance

costs

if you avoid leaded fuel (US$10./hr). For an engine that can burn 80/87

there is

evidence to suggest that using leaded fuel occasionally, or mixing it,

provides

almost all the benefits and reduces the negative effects of using it. The

only

problem that I can recall with mixing avgas and mogas was related to

anti-icing

additives in the avgas and alcohol in mogas??? We certainly mix them

frequently

but no alcohol.

Ken

Drew and Jan wrote:

know

I

in

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[David M Parrish]

On 30 Aug 2001, at 23:15, Bob Patterson wrote:

I also had bad 100 LL from that supplier - and others !
I've run clear tubing that stayed soft & clear for 4 years, then
had it go yellow & brown & brittle in 3 days, after some bad gas !!!

You could always use a glass tube protected by a plastic one for
the sight guage.

---
David Parrish




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