The Murphy Builders Site

G'day guys !

Thanks for the words of wisdom !!!

I did 1 hour on Friday.....another hour on Saturday...and 2.9 hours today...(gotta fly off my
40 hour "proving period" ASAP )

As I finished up today, I taxied up to the bowser to fill 'er up.....and as I was waiting for the
guy in front to finish....I was looking at "the beast"....and I noticed a CRACK in one of
the Warp Drive blades at the hub !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ......A BIG crack :-(

After I got her back to the hangar, I took the spinner off....and all 3 blades are cactus !

All this and only 11.5 hours TOTAL on the engine / propeller...

I have been VERY careful not to let the engine idle below 1000 RPM as I read all the stuff
that was going on about the Warp Drive blades before I started flying....

My fellow builders down here say "it's an omen...get rid of the Warp Drive"...but I'm not 100%
in agreement with their line of reasoning.

I'll contact Daryl at WD on Monday and see what the deal is with the replacement blades.
I don't remember reading anything about needing a dampening device when using the WD
prop' on a Lycoming....I even spoke to Daryl personally when I ordered the prop'..some time
back, so he KNEW it was for a Lycoming

What do you guys reckon ?

Should I fit a weight / dampener to the ring gear & mount like Rick Ford......or fit a wooden
prop..(still probably needs a "flywheel" though doesn't it ?)...can't really afford a metal prop'
so I'm probably stuck with option 1 or 2.

Does anyone know if Warp Drive has a web site or an e-mail address ?

Thanks

Yours "grounded again"

Rick Harper

Hi Rick !

Sorry to hear your bad news. It seems this is becoming the
norm with higher compression engines..... (It seems the cracking
is heavily related to higher compression - Continental IO-240's of
only 120 hp, but high comp., have cracked W-D blades.)

Warp Drive have been excellent to deal with - supplying
replacement blades quickly, while trying to resolve this problem.
The cracking only really became an issue within the last 6 months
or so - W-D likely would not have known about it, or the 'solution',
when you ordered yours.

The dampener seems like the best solution for the long-term
health of the engine, as even a wooden prop would not have a lot
of 'flywheel effect', and this must hurt the bearings, etc. The wood
props likely have a bit more mass, and don't show the cracking because
they are much thicker. Some wood props DO develop cracks around the
bolt holes, though - and this WAS attributed to overtorqueing or
drying out. Maybe there's more to it !

The W-D still seems like the best all-around prop compromise
(and <everything> in aviation <is> a compromise ;-) ) - it allows for
adjustable pitch, is light weight, and has a reasonable price. I'm
sure the problems will be resolved by resourceful homebuilders all
over the world. You guys have some fine minds out there, and are among
the most creative people in the world !!

......bobp

---------------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 10:07 PM 6/17/01 +1000, you wrote:

G'day guys !

Thanks for the words of wisdom !!!

I did 1 hour on Friday.....another hour on Saturday...and 2.9 hours

today...(gotta fly off my

40 hour "proving period" ASAP )

As I finished up today, I taxied up to the bowser to fill 'er up.....and as

I was waiting for the

guy in front to finish....I was looking at "the beast"....and I noticed a

CRACK in one of

the Warp Drive blades at the hub !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ......A BIG crack :-(

After I got her back to the hangar, I took the spinner off....and all 3

blades are cactus !

All this and only 11.5 hours TOTAL on the engine / propeller...

I have been VERY careful not to let the engine idle below 1000 RPM as I

read all the stuff

that was going on about the Warp Drive blades before I started flying....

My fellow builders down here say "it's an omen...get rid of the Warp

Drive"...but I'm not 100%

in agreement with their line of reasoning.

I'll contact Daryl at WD on Monday and see what the deal is with the

replacement blades.

I don't remember reading anything about needing a dampening device when

using the WD

prop' on a Lycoming....I even spoke to Daryl personally when I ordered the

prop'..some time

back, so he KNEW it was for a Lycoming

What do you guys reckon ?

Should I fit a weight / dampener to the ring gear & mount like Rick

Ford......or fit a wooden

prop..(still probably needs a "flywheel" though doesn't it ?)...can't

really afford a metal prop'

so I'm probably stuck with option 1 or 2.

Does anyone know if Warp Drive has a web site or an e-mail address ?

Thanks

Yours "grounded again"

Rick Harper
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<DIV><FONT size=2><EM>G'day guys !</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><EM>Thanks for the words of wisdom !!!</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><EM>I did&nbsp; 1 hour on Friday.....another hour on
Saturday...and 2.9 hours today...(gotta fly off my</EM></FONT></DIV>

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Hi Rick,
Sorry to hear about your prop problems.

I Have to say this. I have fairly strong opinions about propellers!

Because of the nature of propellers ( they spin very fast!), they have the potential to kill you.

A disintegrating prop would be not much fun to fly behind!

I am a great believer in the experimental category, it gives great freedom to 'have your own way' with your aircraft and educate yourself about aircraft while delivering a lot of fun. I am quite happy to build and fly a kit aircraft, ( or even design and scratch build one, if I was more clever than I am) modify it, even add bits to it.( I am building a set of skis at the moment, designed only with a few ideas given to me by Wayne.) I have done over 300hrs trouble free flying behind an 'on condition' 0-320 done 2800 hrs in my Rebel ( it is on oil analyses, regular leak downs etc.) But I will not compromise on the propeller/engine combination.

I bought a new standard metal Senenich prop and do not regret doing it, and I advise anyone who asks to do the same thing for their own peace of mind. I have done hundreds of hours behind these props flying aerobatics with rpm's over 3500 and inflicting great forces on them with gyroscopic manoeuvres, if you keep them well maintained they will not let you down. ( I dont think my aging body would keep up with that nowdays!)

The point I am trying to make is there are plenty of other areas to make financial savings to achieve your aim of affordable flying,---But don't compromise on the prop!

Cheers

Alister

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Harper (rjwh@ozemail.com.au)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 12:07 AM
Subject: Rebel 541 Update (since yesterday)


G'day guys !

Thanks for the words of wisdom !!!

I did 1 hour on Friday.....another hour on Saturday...and 2.9 hours today...(gotta fly off my
40 hour "proving period" ASAP )

As I finished up today, I taxied up to the bowser to fill 'er up.....and as I was waiting for the
guy in front to finish....I was looking at "the beast"....and I noticed a CRACK in one of
the Warp Drive blades at the hub !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ......A BIG crack :-(

After I got her back to the hangar, I took the spinner off....and all 3 blades are cactus !

All this and only 11.5 hours TOTAL on the engine / propeller...

I have been VERY careful not to let the engine idle below 1000 RPM as I read all the stuff
that was going on about the Warp Drive blades before I started flying....

My fellow builders down here say "it's an omen...get rid of the Warp Drive"...but I'm not 100%
in agreement with their line of reasoning.

I'll contact Daryl at WD on Monday and see what the deal is with the replacement blades.
I don't remember reading anything about needing a dampening device when using the WD
prop' on a Lycoming....I even spoke to Daryl personally when I ordered the prop'..some time
back, so he KNEW it was for a Lycoming

What do you guys reckon ?

Should I fit a weight / dampener to the ring gear & mount like Rick Ford......or fit a wooden
prop..(still probably needs a "flywheel" though doesn't it ?)...can't really afford a metal prop'
so I'm probably stuck with option 1 or 2.

Does anyone know if Warp Drive has a web site or an e-mail address ?

Thanks

Yours "grounded again"

Rick Harper

Rick, sorry to hear about your Prop biting you in the ass so quickly but in some respects I have to agree with Alister about the "certified" propellor route, although personally I <AM> flying behind a W.D. Propellor! The thing that strikes me the most about going metal is the smoothness they run compared to my W.D. The newly overhauled 150 H.P. engine I put in the Amphib will idle at less than 350 R.P.M.'s SMOOTHLY! You can't beat that, for taxing up to a dock! The first sign of cracking on my W.D. it comes off and a metal prop goes on. Of course at that time I will finally get around to removing my battery from the firewall and moving it to the back!

Rick, what diameter and blade style of Warp Drive do you have. I am just trying to narrow down the prop that seems to be cracking all the time, <IF> there is one specific style. SO far, "knock on wood", my 70" x 3 blade with the square style tips has lasted over 250 hours on a 100 H.P. O-235-C and now an additional 50 hours, or so, on a 150 H.P. O-320. The Rebel I am shipping off to Hawaii (guy from Maui is coming into Toronto's Pearson Airport tonight and then up tomorrow for 2 days of test flying before I disassemble and pack it) has an O-235-C in it that was converted to an O-235-L2C 118 H.P. (which has 8.5 : 1 compression). It has just over 75 hours on it with no signs of root cracking. It is also a 70 inch x 3 blade propellor but has the tapered "constant speed" tips. If you are claiming/aiming for 130 H.P. you must have the 9.7 : 1 pistons from an O-235-F1 DO YOU!?

Anyone else out there that has cracked or delaminated a Warp Drive. What diameter and blade profile do/did you have?????

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Harper (rjwh@ozemail.com.au)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 8:07 AM
Subject: Rebel 541 Update (since yesterday)


G'day guys !

Thanks for the words of wisdom !!!

I did 1 hour on Friday.....another hour on Saturday...and 2.9 hours today...(gotta fly off my
40 hour "proving period" ASAP )

As I finished up today, I taxied up to the bowser to fill 'er up.....and as I was waiting for the
guy in front to finish....I was looking at "the beast"....and I noticed a CRACK in one of
the Warp Drive blades at the hub !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ......A BIG crack :-(

After I got her back to the hangar, I took the spinner off....and all 3 blades are cactus !

All this and only 11.5 hours TOTAL on the engine / propeller...

I have been VERY careful not to let the engine idle below 1000 RPM as I read all the stuff
that was going on about the Warp Drive blades before I started flying....

My fellow builders down here say "it's an omen...get rid of the Warp Drive"...but I'm not 100%
in agreement with their line of reasoning.

I'll contact Daryl at WD on Monday and see what the deal is with the replacement blades.
I don't remember reading anything about needing a dampening device when using the WD
prop' on a Lycoming....I even spoke to Daryl personally when I ordered the prop'..some time
back, so he KNEW it was for a Lycoming

What do you guys reckon ?

Should I fit a weight / dampener to the ring gear & mount like Rick Ford......or fit a wooden
prop..(still probably needs a "flywheel" though doesn't it ?)...can't really afford a metal prop'
so I'm probably stuck with option 1 or 2.

Does anyone know if Warp Drive has a web site or an e-mail address ?

Thanks

Yours "grounded again"

Rick Harper

There's a guy out here in BC that runs a 3 blade 68 inch WD on a 100 HP C200 that has cracked blades at the aluminum collar. This is on a Murphy Renegade. What's interesting is that they have been this way for over 200 hours. He believes it is just the aluminum coating that is cracked and the rest of the blade underneath is fine. These again are the wide tip variety.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: June 17, 2001 4:42 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel 541 Update (since yesterday)


Rick, sorry to hear about your Prop biting you in the ass so quickly but in some respects I have to agree with Alister about the "certified" propellor route, although personally I <AM> flying behind a W.D. Propellor! The thing that strikes me the most about going metal is the smoothness they run compared to my W.D. The newly overhauled 150 H.P. engine I put in the Amphib will idle at less than 350 R.P.M.'s SMOOTHLY! You can't beat that, for taxing up to a dock! The first sign of cracking on my W.D. it comes off and a metal prop goes on. Of course at that time I will finally get around to removing my battery from the firewall and moving it to the back!

Rick, what diameter and blade style of Warp Drive do you have. I am just trying to narrow down the prop that seems to be cracking all the time, <IF> there is one specific style. SO far, "knock on wood", my 70" x 3 blade with the square style tips has lasted over 250 hours on a 100 H.P. O-235-C and now an additional 50 hours, or so, on a 150 H.P. O-320. The Rebel I am shipping off to Hawaii (guy from Maui is coming into Toronto's Pearson Airport tonight and then up tomorrow for 2 days of test flying before I disassemble and pack it) has an O-235-C in it that was converted to an O-235-L2C 118 H.P. (which has 8.5 : 1 compression). It has just over 75 hours on it with no signs of root cracking. It is also a 70 inch x 3 blade propellor but has the tapered "constant speed" tips. If you are claiming/aiming for 130 H.P. you must have the 9.7 : 1 pistons from an O-235-F1 DO YOU!?

Anyone else out there that has cracked or delaminated a Warp Drive. What diameter and blade profile do/did you have?????

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Harper (rjwh@ozemail.com.au)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 8:07 AM
Subject: Rebel 541 Update (since yesterday)


G'day guys !

Thanks for the words of wisdom !!!

I did 1 hour on Friday.....another hour on Saturday...and 2.9 hours today...(gotta fly off my
40 hour "proving period" ASAP )

As I finished up today, I taxied up to the bowser to fill 'er up.....and as I was waiting for the
guy in front to finish....I was looking at "the beast"....and I noticed a CRACK in one of
the Warp Drive blades at the hub !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ......A BIG crack :-(

After I got her back to the hangar, I took the spinner off....and all 3 blades are cactus !

All this and only 11.5 hours TOTAL on the engine / propeller...

I have been VERY careful not to let the engine idle below 1000 RPM as I read all the stuff
that was going on about the Warp Drive blades before I started flying....

My fellow builders down here say "it's an omen...get rid of the Warp Drive"...but I'm not 100%
in agreement with their line of reasoning.

I'll contact Daryl at WD on Monday and see what the deal is with the replacement blades.
I don't remember reading anything about needing a dampening device when using the WD
prop' on a Lycoming....I even spoke to Daryl personally when I ordered the prop'..some time
back, so he KNEW it was for a Lycoming

What do you guys reckon ?

Should I fit a weight / dampener to the ring gear & mount like Rick Ford......or fit a wooden
prop..(still probably needs a "flywheel" though doesn't it ?)...can't really afford a metal prop'
so I'm probably stuck with option 1 or 2.

Does anyone know if Warp Drive has a web site or an e-mail address ?

Thanks

Yours "grounded again"

Rick Harper

Rick,
I went through all the Warp Drive problems begining with a hub that was
loaded with porosity and a blade that did not look good right out of the
box. Next up was a spacer that had the bushings squashed out of round.
More weeks of aggrevation. I was not getting a comfortable feeling and
then all of a sudden these cracking issues. However, much to his credit,
the owner of Warp Drive did honor his product. And with some brave souls
at the controls, all of these problems will probably be worked out in
the next few years.
In the end I bought the Sensinich prop. Thankfully refitting with the
Sensenich prop only requires that I move the cowl back about 3/8" and it
weighs about 15 lbs more than the WD with the spacer and balancer ring.
If I counted up all of the hours of inspecting all of the Warp Drive prop
parts, trying to figure out why the spacer wouldn't fit, inspecting and
questioning the porous prop hub, time on the phone, packing and shipping
things back and forth etc., not to mention the UHS spinner issues, I
would probably find that I spent at least 40 hours with the stuff. And I
still have the spacer and the UHS spinner. The spacer was replaced and
the spinner is new and was only mounted for cowl fitting. A few hundred
dollars of dust collectors. Now, find out that you have to buy a 13
pound balancer ($400 U.S.) that you hang on the flywheel that was
designed to carry the starter ring and drive the alternator. More $$ and
I believe that adding that ring to the flywheel is one of the most
insane things that I have heard yet. No telling if you have crank damage.
I am unsure of your experimental rules but in the U.S.an experimental
aircraft with a certified engine and prop combination is only required
to fly for 25 hours before certification. However, some inspectors may
require 40 anyway. I have checked with my local inspector and ahve been
told that only 25 hours will be required for my a/c. This is a
substantial savings alone in my time and fuel.
I have written about these issues before and I hope that you listen to
your friends that have suggested dumping the WD concept until there are
other options that will provide a safer more reliable setup.
Good luck,
Still plugging away at Rebel S/N 404R seems to be no end in sight.
Rick D.


Rick Harper wrote:

G'day guys !



Thanks for the words of wisdom !!!



I did 1 hour on Friday.....another hour on Saturday...and 2.9 hours
today...(gotta fly off my

40 hour "proving period" ASAP )



As I finished up today, I taxied up to the bowser to fill 'er up.....and
as I was waiting for the

guy in front to finish....I was looking at "the beast"....and I noticed
a CRACK in one of

the Warp Drive blades at the hub !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ......A BIG crack :-(



After I got her back to the hangar, I took the spinner off....and all 3
blades are cactus !



All this and only 11.5 hours TOTAL on the engine / propeller...



I have been VERY careful not to let the engine idle below 1000 RPM as I
read all the stuff

that was going on about the Warp Drive blades before I started flying....



My fellow builders down here say "it's an omen...get rid of the Warp
Drive"...but I'm not 100%

in agreement with their line of reasoning.



I'll contact Daryl at WD on Monday and see what the deal is with the
replacement blades.

I don't remember reading anything about needing a dampening device when
using the WD

prop' on a Lycoming....I even spoke to Daryl personally when I ordered
the prop'..some time

back, so he KNEW it was for a Lycoming



What do you guys reckon ?



Should I fit a weight / dampener to the ring gear & mount like Rick
Ford......or fit a wooden

prop..(still probably needs a "flywheel" though doesn't it ?)...can't
really afford a metal prop'

so I'm probably stuck with option 1 or 2.



Does anyone know if Warp Drive has a web site or an e-mail address ?



Thanks



Yours "grounded again"



Rick Harper

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Rick,

Sorry to hear about your WD cracking. You must be getting frustrated by now.
I talked to WD about two months ago concerning this cracking problem with
there blades. They told me to use a dampener with there blades on a Lycoming.
Your blades and hub weigh about 13 lb. and the dampener weighs another 13 lb.
That's 26 lb. total compared to an 8 lb. Sensenich wood blade with crush
plate and bolts. You will lose 3-5% performance from the metal blade but
relative to a WD would be your guess.

Don't get me wrong I love the WD blades on my Kitfox, and have never had a
problem with them. I would really liked to have used them on my Rebel, but
hearing stories like yours has me pretty persuaded to either add the dampener
or go with wood...if you are not considering floats or plan to fly in the
rain.

Bruce G 357R




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Rick,

What Sensinich prop are you using that only weighs 15 lb. more than the WD?
Sensinich told me in a phone conversation there prop for the Rebel (7456 ?)
was in the neighborhood of 40 lb.

Bruce G



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Bruce,
I finally weighed the prop parts. I used an uncalibrated digital weighing
scale.
74DM7S8-0-56 prop = 34 #
2"spacer = 4 1/2 #
spinner & bulkheads = 5 #
for a total of 44 1/2 #

I weighed the WD 2" spacer = 5#,
UHS 12 " spinner with crush plates = 3 1/2 #
and the prop (72" sq tips w/HP hub)I do not have but it was reported
to be 15 #
now add the reported 13 # dampener and you come up with a total of 36 1/2 #

A difference of 8 lbs.

If anyone has a different set of numbers I would like to see where the
differences are.
Good luck,
Rick D.

Legeorgen@cs.com wrote:

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Rick,

What Sensinich prop are you using that only weighs 15 lb. more than the WD?
Sensinich told me in a phone conversation there prop for the Rebel (7456 ?)
was in the neighborhood of 40 lb.

Bruce G
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Hi Rick,
Just had to drop a line more in regards to the "No end is sight" thing. That occasion does arrive at some point to all. Just keep plugging!! do one thing a night. Even if it's just deburring one hole! Suddenly the end does appear and the excitement will ri
se again. That's what began my " Keep at it, it's worth it" came from.
As for the dammpner on the flywheel, unless you're a better engineer and have more data than Landoll, with the experience to back it up, don't be so harsh. When doing mesurements from the case to the dampner I found that there is less than 1deg of runout. W
hen talking to an engineer that works on problems on cars due to clutch fans and related problems he stated that no problem was noted unless the runout was greater than 4deg. After that point the problems began. As for his opinion on hanging the dampner on th
e flywheel, he had absoutly no problem with that , if the runout was within the afore mentioned limits. It was his imput along with others that helped me decide to use the warp drive that I had already purchased. At this point in time (4hrs) I see no problems
. Yes, I added the dampner.Would I recomend a WD prop for a new purchase? Maybe not at this time. Do I think I'm testing the limits? I'm not that kind of person! Also WD has had no inflight failures.
Whew!! I haven't spouted off like that in a while! It is fun to voice opinions though isn't it! I will keep all up to date with mine. Curt N97MR



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Well done Rick, I could put more weight on an aircraft by eating a big
dinner! I no which prop I would go for.

Cheers

Alister


----- Original Message -----
From: Rick DeCiero <rsdec1@star.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel 541 Update (since yesterday)


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Bruce,
I finally weighed the prop parts. I used an uncalibrated digital weighing
scale.
74DM7S8-0-56 prop = 34 #
2"spacer = 4 1/2 #
spinner & bulkheads = 5 #
for a total of 44 1/2 #

I weighed the WD 2" spacer = 5#,
UHS 12 " spinner with crush plates = 3 1/2 #
and the prop (72" sq tips w/HP hub)I do not have but it was reported
to be 15 #
now add the reported 13 # dampener and you come up with a total of 36 1/2

#

A difference of 8 lbs.

If anyone has a different set of numbers I would like to see where the
differences are.
Good luck,
Rick D.

Legeorgen@cs.com wrote:

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Rick,

What Sensinich prop are you using that only weighs 15 lb. more than the

WD?

Sensinich told me in a phone conversation there prop for the Rebel (7456

?)

was in the neighborhood of 40 lb.

Bruce G

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Hi Rick
I didn't weigh the individual parts, but I wish I had. I removed a 76" MCauley prop. I Installed a 72" sq tip warp drive and dampner. I reweighed the aircraft on calibrated scales, the same ones I originally used for the weighing of the aircraft. The aircr
aft was empty. Old empty weigh was 970.0 lbs with a cg of 11.3 aft of Datum
New weight is 951.0 New cg is 11.52 aft of datum. Hope that helps with the comparables.
I set the prop at 12 deg and inital flight test was a 50 rpm difference in the climb, 2350 over the 2300 on the MCauley( I always think I'm spelling it wrong).
Cruise at 2500 was unchanged, as far as I could tell,
but the takeoff roll startled me. My normal departure is a no flap (sorry Bob) power up let the craft roll until the front wheels seem light, lift the tail slightly, about 3 or 4" and it will fly out at that attiude nicely. The change seemed to come in the tr
ansition, for as I raised the tail, I went flying! I will try to duplicate previous tests to see how real that is, but I do feel I was flying much quicker than before. After 5 laps around the pattern full stops each time I still felt the same.
Anyway, I was thinking I'd get more rpm than that. What are the the other warp drivers with 150hp or so getting on rpm on climb out? Especially on floats. Thanks Curt N97MR



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