The Murphy Builders Site

Hi Bob,

We hear this complaint quite a bit - Lack of elevator control.

I have never noticed this at all, but I am very aware of the Rebels habit of
developing a high sink rate when very slow. This varies depending on more
what weight you are carrying rather than, I think, C of G.( I have a 100
meter strip ( for practice) mown in the long grass at the airfield, Its
quite noticeable, significantly more power has to be carried just before
touchdown with two up Vs. one in the same conditions.)( and two up the C of
G is further back isn't it?)

In your opinion are these two different issues ( lack of elevator control
and sink rate) or is the high sink rate being confused with lack of
elevator? With the high sink rate, a touch of power sorts that out really
quickly.

I have heard comments made that a Rebel can out Cub a SuperCub, I am not so
sure, they are two different aircraft, with different wing areas and
section, and they have different flying characteristics, but with practice a
Rebel can get close to a Cub's STOL performance.( plus all the other
benefits, cruise, side by side, modern materials, etc.etc.)

Cheers

Alister

off VERY quickly once level, so get the tail DOWN. Do not try to
approach below 65 mph until you are VERY familiar with the Rebel -
it will develop a very high sink rate, while still having full
control. This often fools people into thinking they are flairing,
when they are really descending over 1,500 feet/min. !!! This usually
results in a bent bird ! :-(

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Hi Alister !

We all value your inputs, as you have considerable aerobatic
experience, and also work at refining your skills with the Rebel to
a greater extent than many of us are able ...

I too find that there's no shortage of elevator control -
in fact, I believe that the ability to rotate the aircraft at almost
any speed and sink rate is the cause of the misperception. The nose
comes up, but the sink rate does not reduce significantly if you're
too slow !

( In Rick's case, though, I think he really IS running
out of elevator because of a forward CofG at too slow a speed....)

I agree completely that the sink rate increases dramatically
with higher weight. I can get away with some pretty wild things with
"Old Number 1", at 716 lb. - it flies happily at 25 mph with full
flapperon, and can do steep turns back-to back at 30 mph !! When
I go to #230, at 966 lb, I'd best stay above 65 on approach, OR ELSE !!

You're right ! I think that some pilots think there's a
shortage of elevator control because they hit hard, even though there's
enough elevator control to change the attitude. There's a lot of
pitch control, but changing the pitch won't arrest the sink rate
quickly enough. As you say, a bit of power is needed if the speed
is gone, otherwise, it just quits flying.

I'm an old glider pilot, so tend not to use power at all on
approach & landing. This forces me to use a higher speed (about 75 mph)
to get me safely through wind gradients, and leave enough for a decent
flair, with a bit of floating time to get the attitude right for
touchdown. To avoid looooong landings, I adjust my aiming point, often
to <before> the runway threshold.

My landing habits developed on a Schreder HP-11A that I flew
for 23 years - it had HUGE 90 degree flaps instead of spoilers, and
made me a firm believer in full-flap landings. The low touchdown
speeds spared me a LOT of grief !! (With full flap, it would
stall with the nose <below> the horizon !!)

"Out-Cubbing the Super Cub" - well ..... both Brian Cross
and I have fairly light (even unpainted) Rebels, with 150 hp. engines,
and fly from Brampton, where the Flying Club has a Super Cub. We both
<delight> in taking off following the Cub, and PASSING him, while
OUTCLIMBING him !! ;-) :-) ( great sadistic glee !!! )

I also tow gliders with 180 hp. Super Cubs, and firmly believe
there's NO better towplane in the world ! In the right conditions,
only a VERY light Rebel, with a LOT of power, could touch the Cub
for takeoff roll. The Cub wing is just a bit better in that regime.

Both Brian and I are big fans of the Super Cub - with several
hundred hours on them each, but I think he agrees that the Rebel is
a more suitable all-around airplane.

The Rebel gets close enough for my needs, and as you say, all
of the other benefits - higher cruise, side-by-side, extra room, MUCH more
baggage capacity, ease of maintenance, etc. - make the Rebel a better
choice for our kind of flying !!!

Your last suggestion is excellent - the key to performance is
PRACTICE. Everyone can get more out of their airplanes if they go
out occasionally and mark out a practice landing area as you've done
- every flight can be a learning and improving experience !
(As well as a LOT of FUN !!! ;-) )

Be careful out there, but have fun !

....bobp

--------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 05:26 PM 6/17/01 +1200, you wrote:

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Hi Bob,

We hear this complaint quite a bit - Lack of elevator control.

I have never noticed this at all, but I am very aware of the Rebels habit of
developing a high sink rate when very slow. This varies depending on more
what weight you are carrying rather than, I think, C of G.( I have a 100
meter strip ( for practice) mown in the long grass at the airfield, Its
quite noticeable, significantly more power has to be carried just before
touchdown with two up Vs. one in the same conditions.)( and two up the C of
G is further back isn't it?)

In your opinion are these two different issues ( lack of elevator control
and sink rate) or is the high sink rate being confused with lack of
elevator? With the high sink rate, a touch of power sorts that out really
quickly.

I have heard comments made that a Rebel can out Cub a SuperCub, I am not so
sure, they are two different aircraft, with different wing areas and
section, and they have different flying characteristics, but with practice a
Rebel can get close to a Cub's STOL performance.( plus all the other
benefits, cruise, side by side, modern materials, etc.etc.)

Cheers

Alister

off VERY quickly once level, so get the tail DOWN. Do not try to
approach below 65 mph until you are VERY familiar with the Rebel -
it will develop a very high sink rate, while still having full
control. This often fools people into thinking they are flairing,
when they are really descending over 1,500 feet/min. !!! This usually
results in a bent bird ! :-(

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Hi Bob,

I agree the Rebel ia a better all round aircraft, and I agree a
light 320 Rebel will hold its own in the take off roll and probably climb
although a cub wing levitates the aircraft beatifully doesn't it?) the area
that I find interesting is in the short landing area, I find the Rebel quite
a bit more challenging in that mode. To squeeze into a tight spot can
require quite accurate use of power with interesting results if not handled
quite right.( to much power and 'woops' I'm to fast, not enough and 'woops'
I've prelanded!) The big long wing on the cub, I think, can be a bit more
forgiving.

Cheers

Alister

"Out-Cubbing the Super Cub" - well ..... both Brian Cross
and I have fairly light (even unpainted) Rebels, with 150 hp. engines,
and fly from Brampton, where the Flying Club has a Super Cub. We both
<delight> in taking off following the Cub, and PASSING him, while
OUTCLIMBING him !! ;-) :-) ( great sadistic glee !!! )

I also tow gliders with 180 hp. Super Cubs, and firmly believe
there's NO better towplane in the world ! In the right conditions,
only a VERY light Rebel, with a LOT of power, could touch the Cub
for takeoff roll. The Cub wing is just a bit better in that regime.

Both Brian and I are big fans of the Super Cub - with several
hundred hours on them each, but I think he agrees that the Rebel is
a more suitable all-around airplane.

The Rebel gets close enough for my needs, and as you say, all
of the other benefits - higher cruise, side-by-side, extra room, MUCH more
baggage capacity, ease of maintenance, etc. - make the Rebel a better
choice for our kind of flying !!!

--------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------

At 05:26 PM 6/17/01 +1200, you wrote:

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

The list archives are located at:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Hi Bob,

We hear this complaint quite a bit - Lack of elevator control.

I have never noticed this at all, but I am very aware of the Rebels habit

of

developing a high sink rate when very slow. This varies depending on more
what weight you are carrying rather than, I think, C of G.( I have a 100
meter strip ( for practice) mown in the long grass at the airfield, Its
quite noticeable, significantly more power has to be carried just before
touchdown with two up Vs. one in the same conditions.)( and two up the C

of

G is further back isn't it?)

In your opinion are these two different issues ( lack of elevator control
and sink rate) or is the high sink rate being confused with lack of
elevator? With the high sink rate, a touch of power sorts that out really
quickly.

I have heard comments made that a Rebel can out Cub a SuperCub, I am not

so

sure, they are two different aircraft, with different wing areas and
section, and they have different flying characteristics, but with

practice a

Rebel can get close to a Cub's STOL performance.( plus all the other
benefits, cruise, side by side, modern materials, etc.etc.)

Cheers

Alister

off VERY quickly once level, so get the tail DOWN. Do not try to
approach below 65 mph until you are VERY familiar with the Rebel -
it will develop a very high sink rate, while still having full
control. This often fools people into thinking they are flairing,
when they are really descending over 1,500 feet/min. !!! This usually
results in a bent bird ! :-(

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I had a bit of trouble transitioning from nose gear flying to the Rebel tail
dragger. However, I've been doing well lately, (touch wood), and there is
one thing that I learned to do that seemed to work for me. I used to try and
flare it a little too close to the runway and often the mains would touch
too early. Now I flare high and try to stall it a foot off the ground. That
way the tail will finally come down first resulting in a nice solid no
bounce 3 pointer. I also have the battery in front with an O320 resulting in
a forward C of G.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
A G Yeoman
Sent: June 17, 2001 5:58 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Questions/sink rate


*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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Hi Bob,

I agree the Rebel ia a better all round aircraft, and I agree a
light 320 Rebel will hold its own in the take off roll and probably climb
although a cub wing levitates the aircraft beatifully doesn't it?) the area
that I find interesting is in the short landing area, I find the Rebel quite
a bit more challenging in that mode. To squeeze into a tight spot can
require quite accurate use of power with interesting results if not handled
quite right.( to much power and 'woops' I'm to fast, not enough and 'woops'
I've prelanded!) The big long wing on the cub, I think, can be a bit more
forgiving.

Cheers

Alister

"Out-Cubbing the Super Cub" - well ..... both Brian Cross
and I have fairly light (even unpainted) Rebels, with 150 hp. engines,
and fly from Brampton, where the Flying Club has a Super Cub. We both
<delight> in taking off following the Cub, and PASSING him, while
OUTCLIMBING him !! ;-) :-) ( great sadistic glee !!! )

I also tow gliders with 180 hp. Super Cubs, and firmly believe
there's NO better towplane in the world ! In the right conditions,
only a VERY light Rebel, with a LOT of power, could touch the Cub
for takeoff roll. The Cub wing is just a bit better in that regime.

Both Brian and I are big fans of the Super Cub - with several
hundred hours on them each, but I think he agrees that the Rebel is
a more suitable all-around airplane.

The Rebel gets close enough for my needs, and as you say, all
of the other benefits - higher cruise, side-by-side, extra room, MUCH more
baggage capacity, ease of maintenance, etc. - make the Rebel a better
choice for our kind of flying !!!

--------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------

At 05:26 PM 6/17/01 +1200, you wrote:

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

The list archives are located at:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Hi Bob,

We hear this complaint quite a bit - Lack of elevator control.

I have never noticed this at all, but I am very aware of the Rebels habit

of

developing a high sink rate when very slow. This varies depending on more
what weight you are carrying rather than, I think, C of G.( I have a 100
meter strip ( for practice) mown in the long grass at the airfield, Its
quite noticeable, significantly more power has to be carried just before
touchdown with two up Vs. one in the same conditions.)( and two up the C

of

G is further back isn't it?)

In your opinion are these two different issues ( lack of elevator control
and sink rate) or is the high sink rate being confused with lack of
elevator? With the high sink rate, a touch of power sorts that out really
quickly.

I have heard comments made that a Rebel can out Cub a SuperCub, I am not

so

sure, they are two different aircraft, with different wing areas and
section, and they have different flying characteristics, but with

practice a

Rebel can get close to a Cub's STOL performance.( plus all the other
benefits, cruise, side by side, modern materials, etc.etc.)

Cheers

Alister

off VERY quickly once level, so get the tail DOWN. Do not try to
approach below 65 mph until you are VERY familiar with the Rebel -
it will develop a very high sink rate, while still having full
control. This often fools people into thinking they are flairing,
when they are really descending over 1,500 feet/min. !!! This usually
results in a bent bird ! :-(

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Hi Alister !

The Cub certainly does seem easier to squeeze in - especially
if it has 'tired' bungees ! You really <have> to have the stick
ALL THE WAY BACK, or they like to skip !! I've noticed that the
newer Super Cubs, with metal flaps, and a bit heavier, don't seem
quite as versatile as the older ones ... almost like the wing's
just a bit different. (not quite as 'fat' ...)

Getting the Rebel into small places is a challenge, and
practice really is the answer. It's very satisfying to touch down
at a brisk walk and turn off in 130 feet - but you can only do that
in a VERY light (912 powered) Rebel (with perhaps a few more degrees
of flapperon than the book suggests) ! Of course, the Dave Fife
Hoerner wing tips give the wing a lot more life, and the McKenzie STOL
kit can really give you low speed control, if you want ultimate
performance.

Sounds like you're doing all the right things, especially
the practice strip, and having lots of fun, too !!!

.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 12:58 PM 6/18/01 +1200, you wrote:

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The list archives are located at:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Hi Bob,

I agree the Rebel ia a better all round aircraft, and I agree a
light 320 Rebel will hold its own in the take off roll and probably climb
although a cub wing levitates the aircraft beatifully doesn't it?) the area
that I find interesting is in the short landing area, I find the Rebel quite
a bit more challenging in that mode. To squeeze into a tight spot can
require quite accurate use of power with interesting results if not handled
quite right.( to much power and 'woops' I'm to fast, not enough and 'woops'
I've prelanded!) The big long wing on the cub, I think, can be a bit more
forgiving.

Cheers

Alister

"Out-Cubbing the Super Cub" - well ..... both Brian Cross
and I have fairly light (even unpainted) Rebels, with 150 hp. engines,
and fly from Brampton, where the Flying Club has a Super Cub. We both
<delight> in taking off following the Cub, and PASSING him, while
OUTCLIMBING him !! ;-) :-) ( great sadistic glee !!! )

I also tow gliders with 180 hp. Super Cubs, and firmly believe
there's NO better towplane in the world ! In the right conditions,
only a VERY light Rebel, with a LOT of power, could touch the Cub
for takeoff roll. The Cub wing is just a bit better in that regime.

Both Brian and I are big fans of the Super Cub - with several
hundred hours on them each, but I think he agrees that the Rebel is
a more suitable all-around airplane.

The Rebel gets close enough for my needs, and as you say, all
of the other benefits - higher cruise, side-by-side, extra room, MUCH more
baggage capacity, ease of maintenance, etc. - make the Rebel a better
choice for our kind of flying !!!

--------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------

At 05:26 PM 6/17/01 +1200, you wrote:

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

The list archives are located at:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Hi Bob,

We hear this complaint quite a bit - Lack of elevator control.

I have never noticed this at all, but I am very aware of the Rebels habit

of

developing a high sink rate when very slow. This varies depending on more
what weight you are carrying rather than, I think, C of G.( I have a 100
meter strip ( for practice) mown in the long grass at the airfield, Its
quite noticeable, significantly more power has to be carried just before
touchdown with two up Vs. one in the same conditions.)( and two up the C

of

G is further back isn't it?)

In your opinion are these two different issues ( lack of elevator control
and sink rate) or is the high sink rate being confused with lack of
elevator? With the high sink rate, a touch of power sorts that out really
quickly.

I have heard comments made that a Rebel can out Cub a SuperCub, I am not

so

sure, they are two different aircraft, with different wing areas and
section, and they have different flying characteristics, but with

practice a

Rebel can get close to a Cub's STOL performance.( plus all the other
benefits, cruise, side by side, modern materials, etc.etc.)

Cheers

Alister

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Hi Bob,

I agree with you that ever plane has it's characteristics and compromises,
good and bad, but the trick is to get enough of the right kind of flying in
THAT particular bird to master it. Practice makes perfect.

I know I haven't had any significant time in the Rebel (yet) but I hear guys
say the same thing about the Kitfox, like...it sinks or runs out of elevator
or floats, etc. I just have to wonder if there talking about the same plane
I'm flying. I have to conclude that as pilots we all are as different as the
planes we fly. We have different capabilities and characteristics when it
comes to flying. One guy has a problem with it and the next guy doesn't.
That's all I can figure.

Bruce G 357R




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Well said, Bruce !!

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 11:08 PM 6/17/01 EDT, you wrote:

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Hi Bob,

I agree with you that ever plane has it's characteristics and compromises,
good and bad, but the trick is to get enough of the right kind of flying in
THAT particular bird to master it. Practice makes perfect.

I know I haven't had any significant time in the Rebel (yet) but I hear guys
say the same thing about the Kitfox, like...it sinks or runs out of elevator
or floats, etc. I just have to wonder if there talking about the same plane
I'm flying. I have to conclude that as pilots we all are as different as the
planes we fly. We have different capabilities and characteristics when it
comes to flying. One guy has a problem with it and the next guy doesn't.
That's all I can figure.

Bruce G 357R

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Hi Alister

Is that some sort of Kiwi term ' two up Vs'? or does the Rebel fly
differently down there?

Cheers

Brian #328R



-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
A G Yeoman
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 1:27 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Questions/sink rate


*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The list archives are located at:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Hi Bob,

We hear this complaint quite a bit - Lack of elevator control.

I have never noticed this at all, but I am very aware of the Rebels habit of
developing a high sink rate when very slow. This varies depending on more
what weight you are carrying rather than, I think, C of G.( I have a 100
meter strip ( for practice) mown in the long grass at the airfield, Its
quite noticeable, significantly more power has to be carried just before
touchdown with two up Vs. one in the same conditions.)( and two up the C of
G is further back isn't it?)

In your opinion are these two different issues ( lack of elevator control
and sink rate) or is the high sink rate being confused with lack of
elevator? With the high sink rate, a touch of power sorts that out really
quickly.

I have heard comments made that a Rebel can out Cub a SuperCub, I am not so
sure, they are two different aircraft, with different wing areas and
section, and they have different flying characteristics, but with practice a
Rebel can get close to a Cub's STOL performance.( plus all the other
benefits, cruise, side by side, modern materials, etc.etc.)

Cheers

Alister

off VERY quickly once level, so get the tail DOWN. Do not try to
approach below 65 mph until you are VERY familiar with the Rebel -
it will develop a very high sink rate, while still having full
control. This often fools people into thinking they are flairing,
when they are really descending over 1,500 feet/min. !!! This usually
results in a bent bird ! :-(

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Well Brian, we are upside down compared to you guys!!

Cheers

Alister

----- Original Message -----
From: rebelair <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: Rebel Questions/sink rate


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Hi Alister

Is that some sort of Kiwi term ' two up Vs'? or does the Rebel fly
differently down there?

Cheers

Brian #328R



-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
A G Yeoman
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 1:27 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Questions/sink rate

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

The list archives are located at:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Hi Bob,

We hear this complaint quite a bit - Lack of elevator control.

I have never noticed this at all, but I am very aware of the Rebels habit

of

developing a high sink rate when very slow. This varies depending on more
what weight you are carrying rather than, I think, C of G.( I have a 100
meter strip ( for practice) mown in the long grass at the airfield, Its
quite noticeable, significantly more power has to be carried just before
touchdown with two up Vs. one in the same conditions.)( and two up the C

of

G is further back isn't it?)

In your opinion are these two different issues ( lack of elevator control
and sink rate) or is the high sink rate being confused with lack of
elevator? With the high sink rate, a touch of power sorts that out really
quickly.

I have heard comments made that a Rebel can out Cub a SuperCub, I am not

so

sure, they are two different aircraft, with different wing areas and
section, and they have different flying characteristics, but with practice

a

Rebel can get close to a Cub's STOL performance.( plus all the other
benefits, cruise, side by side, modern materials, etc.etc.)

Cheers

Alister

off VERY quickly once level, so get the tail DOWN. Do not try to
approach below 65 mph until you are VERY familiar with the Rebel -
it will develop a very high sink rate, while still having full
control. This often fools people into thinking they are flairing,
when they are really descending over 1,500 feet/min. !!! This usually
results in a bent bird ! :-(

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Hi Alister

Is that some sort of Kiwi term ' two up Vs'? or

does the Rebel fly

differently down there?

Cheers

Brian #328R

I think that was supposed to read with two-up vs.
single (ie only one person in the plane)...

But everything IS different down there. When you
pull the stick back the plane goes down, which
might explain the sink rate ;)

JB



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HI

Thanks for the clarification. I was really starting to worry about Alister!

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
jb@dcsol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 8:56 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Rebel Questions/sink rate


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Hi Alister

Is that some sort of Kiwi term ' two up Vs'? or

does the Rebel fly

differently down there?

Cheers

Brian #328R

I think that was supposed to read with two-up vs.
single (ie only one person in the plane)...

But everything IS different down there. When you
pull the stick back the plane goes down, which
might explain the sink rate ;)

JB*-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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