Page 1 of 1

[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by Ron Shannon
There is no guarantee against future leaks. A surprising number of "wet
wing" integral aircraft tanks are plagued with seepage or worse at some
point in their lives, in Rebels and everything else. My plans:

First, I'll again review all the discussions about sealing tanks in
general, including Wayne's recent detailed suggestions, comments about
suspect areas, etc. Among his many other points, for new construction, I
liked his idea of putting in access ports even before the bottom skin goes
onto the wing, anticipating a need to get in later, but doing a more
certain job of sealing the ports while it's easy to get at both sides,
including the "bath tub" phase before the top goes on. (As noted before, I
didn't have the joy of building my original tanks.)

Before cutting ports (any day now) I have rinsed the insides with a mild
degreaser in warm water, mostly to assure all fuel is out, then warm rinsed
and blow dried that (with a heat gun far away, blowing warm air through a 5
ft. long 1" polyurethane tube, duct taped into the filler neck) realizing
that the real good cleaning will have to wait until after I'm into the
tanks and done with machining.

My plan is to do the machining with the wing off, on a table, bottom side
up, of course. When cutting and drilling, I'll try to get a "bib" or
"napkin" inside under the work area as soon as possible in the process, to
catch as much of the cutting and drilling filings, etc., as possible. I'll
remove, dip and reset a couple of bottom rivets that are still suspect,
forcing Pro-Seal into the holes to capture the old rivet tails, dipping the
new rivets.

Once the port holes are cut, I'll clean everything inside as much as
possible (lint-free processes, of course) then do good surface prep of
exposed metal around the edges of the existing Pro-Seal, and making sure
everything is as clean as possible again before applying PR-182 adhesion
promoter to the existing Pro-Seal. (See PR-182 at *
http://tinyurl.com/6rjz2ft* for example.) Then I'll apply another layer or
two of Pro-Seal over everything, with particular attention to suspect
locations, filleting out over the prepped bare metal. Finally, I'll
overcoat everything with the less viscous, brushable Pro-Seal Type A top
coat.

To close up, I'll make sure all parts, surfaces, rivets and clecos are
properly prepped. I plan to close up the doublers and covers with the wing
turned over again right side up, bottom down, working from the bottom side,
below. I will knock myself out covering and dipping everything through that
process, and will also use adjacent-bay ports to make sure the neighboring
ports are well covered and brush top coated from the inside. (Getting
around the baffles may be problematic, but....) The outboard port under the
filler neck will be done last, so I can attempt to add a brushable top coat
through the filler neck even on that one.

Of course, throughout I will observe temp and curing controls and
frequently apply secret incantations, make fervent appeals to various
deities, etc. I'll probably wait at least 10 days for a good cure (all the
while taking large doses of anti-anxiety medication) before air testing,
then final rinse and dry, check finger strainer & sump fittings, etc.

Or something like that. Then I'm going to paint the whole thing,
reassemble, and [gasp!] re-weigh, of course. Should be flying again
sometime before 2013. :-(

Ron

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Roland Kriening <kriening@rogers.com>wrote:
I like the idea of access ports and would also go with CNC cut plates, if
only they didn't want to charge me over $100 for shipping. Seems once they
sense a border crossing, the opportunity to make some extra money grabs
hold. So much for living on the same continent.

Seems like an academic yet simple question Ron, but how would one ensure no
leaks from the six new plates. I always try to think things through
thoroughly before cutting (learned the hard way $$$). Cutting into the
bottom of a tank really scares and newbie like me. I really like your idea,
but I do see a lot more proseal in my future. Can you share your thoughts.
Perhaps I am over thinking this again.

Roland



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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by David A. Ricker
Roland

You should be able to find a shop to do your CNC cutting on which ever
side of the border you're on, start with the Yellow pages under machine
shops and call a few until you fine one that fits the size of your job.
You might find someone under water jet cutting too, aluminum is done
that way too.

Cheers,

Dave

On 1/24/2012 2:51 PM, Roland Kriening wrote:
I like the idea of access ports and would also go with CNC cut plates, if
only they didn't want to charge me over $100 for shipping. Seems once they
sense a border crossing, the opportunity to make some extra money grabs
hold. So much for living on the same continent.

Seems like an academic yet simple question Ron, but how would one ensure no
leaks from the six new plates. I always try to think things through
thoroughly before cutting (learned the hard way $$$). Cutting into the
bottom of a tank really scares and newbie like me. I really like your idea,
but I do see a lot more proseal in my future. Can you share your thoughts.
Perhaps I am over thinking this again.

Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: tank bottom skin material

Aye, Drew. CAD/CNC fabrication saves a helluva lot of work, and is cheap.
To wit:

With flush covers on doublers as I've laid it out, there are 4 separate,
nominal 8" X 6" rectangles to cut per port, namely, the tank skin hole, the
cover plate, and the inside and outside of each doubler, each with four
rounded corners, for 16 rounded corners per port. With nominal 0.75"
spacing, there are 65 rivet hole pilots to layout and drill manually per
port -- 39 for the outer doubler-to-skin ring, and 26 for the
cover-to-doubler.

Multiply all those those numbers by six bays (in my case) and that's a ton
of work to do by hand, even using a template or whatever. With the machine
fab, only the 6 tank skin holes and finish rivet hole drilling need to be
done manually. If that amount of work reduction, plus the uniformity and
precision obtained isn't worth a net cost of $75-$80 for a little CNC fab
work -- after backing out the material cost you'd have either way -- I
don't know what is. (IMHO, even if you can get by with as few as two ports,
it's still a no brainer for people as lazy as me.)

Nevertheless, if Ted will do all those cuts, corners and holes just as good
for less, I'll definitely go for it. :-)

Ron

PS - Ralph, you're right, that first CAD file upload was "stinkin' " indeed
-- because I mistakenly uploaded a version without the rivet holes. All
fixed now though, with rivet holes, and virtual deodorizer to boot. ;-)

PS2 - Yes, it's [still] obvious that surface mounting takes less work and
fewer rivet holes.



On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Drew Dalgleish
<drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>wrote:

That makes sense. I was imagining only a couple holes.




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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by Jerald Folkerts
I noticed today that Vans Aircraft sells Flush Mount Fuel Tank Access Covers
and Doublers. Might be less expensive than having them custom made for you.
Check out their web site.

Regards,

Jerry Folkerts
SR #093
www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:17 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

There is no guarantee against future leaks. A surprising number of "wet
wing" integral aircraft tanks are plagued with seepage or worse at some
point in their lives, in Rebels and everything else. My plans:

First, I'll again review all the discussions about sealing tanks in
general, including Wayne's recent detailed suggestions, comments about
suspect areas, etc. Among his many other points, for new construction, I
liked his idea of putting in access ports even before the bottom skin goes
onto the wing, anticipating a need to get in later, but doing a more
certain job of sealing the ports while it's easy to get at both sides,
including the "bath tub" phase before the top goes on. (As noted before, I
didn't have the joy of building my original tanks.)

Before cutting ports (any day now) I have rinsed the insides with a mild
degreaser in warm water, mostly to assure all fuel is out, then warm rinsed
and blow dried that (with a heat gun far away, blowing warm air through a 5
ft. long 1" polyurethane tube, duct taped into the filler neck) realizing
that the real good cleaning will have to wait until after I'm into the
tanks and done with machining.

My plan is to do the machining with the wing off, on a table, bottom side
up, of course. When cutting and drilling, I'll try to get a "bib" or
"napkin" inside under the work area as soon as possible in the process, to
catch as much of the cutting and drilling filings, etc., as possible. I'll
remove, dip and reset a couple of bottom rivets that are still suspect,
forcing Pro-Seal into the holes to capture the old rivet tails, dipping the
new rivets.

Once the port holes are cut, I'll clean everything inside as much as
possible (lint-free processes, of course) then do good surface prep of
exposed metal around the edges of the existing Pro-Seal, and making sure
everything is as clean as possible again before applying PR-182 adhesion
promoter to the existing Pro-Seal. (See PR-182 at *
http://tinyurl.com/6rjz2ft* for example.) Then I'll apply another layer or
two of Pro-Seal over everything, with particular attention to suspect
locations, filleting out over the prepped bare metal. Finally, I'll
overcoat everything with the less viscous, brushable Pro-Seal Type A top
coat.

To close up, I'll make sure all parts, surfaces, rivets and clecos are
properly prepped. I plan to close up the doublers and covers with the wing
turned over again right side up, bottom down, working from the bottom side,
below. I will knock myself out covering and dipping everything through that
process, and will also use adjacent-bay ports to make sure the neighboring
ports are well covered and brush top coated from the inside. (Getting
around the baffles may be problematic, but....) The outboard port under the
filler neck will be done last, so I can attempt to add a brushable top coat
through the filler neck even on that one.

Of course, throughout I will observe temp and curing controls and
frequently apply secret incantations, make fervent appeals to various
deities, etc. I'll probably wait at least 10 days for a good cure (all the
while taking large doses of anti-anxiety medication) before air testing,
then final rinse and dry, check finger strainer & sump fittings, etc.

Or something like that. Then I'm going to paint the whole thing,
reassemble, and [gasp!] re-weigh, of course. Should be flying again
sometime before 2013. :-(

Ron

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Roland Kriening
<kriening@rogers.com>wrote:
I like the idea of access ports and would also go with CNC cut plates, if
only they didn't want to charge me over $100 for shipping. Seems once they
sense a border crossing, the opportunity to make some extra money grabs
hold. So much for living on the same continent.

Seems like an academic yet simple question Ron, but how would one ensure
no
leaks from the six new plates. I always try to think things through
thoroughly before cutting (learned the hard way $$$). Cutting into the
bottom of a tank really scares and newbie like me. I really like your
idea,
but I do see a lot more proseal in my future. Can you share your thoughts.
Perhaps I am over thinking this again.

Roland



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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by Mike Davis
Murphy makes them for the Moose... but only every other bay... so I just
ordered extra with my kit so I could have one in every bay.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

I noticed today that Vans Aircraft sells Flush Mount Fuel Tank Access
Covers
and Doublers. Might be less expensive than having them custom made for
you.
Check out their web site.

Regards,

Jerry Folkerts
SR #093
www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:17 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

There is no guarantee against future leaks. A surprising number of "wet
wing" integral aircraft tanks are plagued with seepage or worse at some
point in their lives, in Rebels and everything else. My plans:

First, I'll again review all the discussions about sealing tanks in
general, including Wayne's recent detailed suggestions, comments about
suspect areas, etc. Among his many other points, for new construction, I
liked his idea of putting in access ports even before the bottom skin goes
onto the wing, anticipating a need to get in later, but doing a more
certain job of sealing the ports while it's easy to get at both sides,
including the "bath tub" phase before the top goes on. (As noted before, I
didn't have the joy of building my original tanks.)

Before cutting ports (any day now) I have rinsed the insides with a mild
degreaser in warm water, mostly to assure all fuel is out, then warm
rinsed
and blow dried that (with a heat gun far away, blowing warm air through a
5
ft. long 1" polyurethane tube, duct taped into the filler neck) realizing
that the real good cleaning will have to wait until after I'm into the
tanks and done with machining.

My plan is to do the machining with the wing off, on a table, bottom side
up, of course. When cutting and drilling, I'll try to get a "bib" or
"napkin" inside under the work area as soon as possible in the process, to
catch as much of the cutting and drilling filings, etc., as possible. I'll
remove, dip and reset a couple of bottom rivets that are still suspect,
forcing Pro-Seal into the holes to capture the old rivet tails, dipping
the
new rivets.

Once the port holes are cut, I'll clean everything inside as much as
possible (lint-free processes, of course) then do good surface prep of
exposed metal around the edges of the existing Pro-Seal, and making sure
everything is as clean as possible again before applying PR-182 adhesion
promoter to the existing Pro-Seal. (See PR-182 at *
http://tinyurl.com/6rjz2ft* for example.) Then I'll apply another layer or
two of Pro-Seal over everything, with particular attention to suspect
locations, filleting out over the prepped bare metal. Finally, I'll
overcoat everything with the less viscous, brushable Pro-Seal Type A top
coat.

To close up, I'll make sure all parts, surfaces, rivets and clecos are
properly prepped. I plan to close up the doublers and covers with the wing
turned over again right side up, bottom down, working from the bottom
side,
below. I will knock myself out covering and dipping everything through
that
process, and will also use adjacent-bay ports to make sure the neighboring
ports are well covered and brush top coated from the inside. (Getting
around the baffles may be problematic, but....) The outboard port under
the
filler neck will be done last, so I can attempt to add a brushable top
coat
through the filler neck even on that one.

Of course, throughout I will observe temp and curing controls and
frequently apply secret incantations, make fervent appeals to various
deities, etc. I'll probably wait at least 10 days for a good cure (all the
while taking large doses of anti-anxiety medication) before air testing,
then final rinse and dry, check finger strainer & sump fittings, etc.

Or something like that. Then I'm going to paint the whole thing,
reassemble, and [gasp!] re-weigh, of course. Should be flying again
sometime before 2013. :-(

Ron

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Roland Kriening
<kriening@rogers.com>wrote:
I like the idea of access ports and would also go with CNC cut plates, if
only they didn't want to charge me over $100 for shipping. Seems once
they
sense a border crossing, the opportunity to make some extra money grabs
hold. So much for living on the same continent.

Seems like an academic yet simple question Ron, but how would one ensure
no
leaks from the six new plates. I always try to think things through
thoroughly before cutting (learned the hard way $$$). Cutting into the
bottom of a tank really scares and newbie like me. I really like your
idea,
but I do see a lot more proseal in my future. Can you share your
thoughts.
Perhaps I am over thinking this again.

Roland



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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by Wayne G. O'Shea
Just to clarify Ron (but good to see someone was at least reading all that
verbal diarrhoea) ... "Among his many other points, for new construction, I
liked his idea of putting in access ports even before the bottom skin goes
onto the wing, anticipating a need to get in later, but doing a more certain
job of sealing the ports while it's easy to get at both sides, including the
"bath tub" phase before the top goes on. (As noted before, I didn't have the
joy of building my original tanks.)"

While that may very well be a great idea.. it's not why I do it. The SR
wings originally came with two access holes cut in the lower tank skins..
why only two?.. I have no idea in a four bay tank skin with solid ribs
between bays!... but I just sealed them up right from the start so they were
done. Had no intention of going in there ever again.. but the option exists
for sure.

Another "food for thought" for you though... since you're cutting holes in
the bottom skins... would it be wise to do your cleaning, sealing, etc.. let
it cure and then seal off the fuel filler neck with a vent free cap and do
the "bath tub" trick as full as you can and let sit for a few days upside
down. Would at least negate numerous leak possibilities before closing up
those ports.

Wayne



----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

There is no guarantee against future leaks. A surprising number of "wet
wing" integral aircraft tanks are plagued with seepage or worse at some
point in their lives, in Rebels and everything else. My plans:

First, I'll again review all the discussions about sealing tanks in
general, including Wayne's recent detailed suggestions, comments about
suspect areas, etc. Among his many other points, for new construction, I
liked his idea of putting in access ports even before the bottom skin goes
onto the wing, anticipating a need to get in later, but doing a more
certain job of sealing the ports while it's easy to get at both sides,
including the "bath tub" phase before the top goes on. (As noted before, I
didn't have the joy of building my original tanks.)

Before cutting ports (any day now) I have rinsed the insides with a mild
degreaser in warm water, mostly to assure all fuel is out, then warm
rinsed
and blow dried that (with a heat gun far away, blowing warm air through a
5
ft. long 1" polyurethane tube, duct taped into the filler neck) realizing
that the real good cleaning will have to wait until after I'm into the
tanks and done with machining.

My plan is to do the machining with the wing off, on a table, bottom side
up, of course. When cutting and drilling, I'll try to get a "bib" or
"napkin" inside under the work area as soon as possible in the process, to
catch as much of the cutting and drilling filings, etc., as possible. I'll
remove, dip and reset a couple of bottom rivets that are still suspect,
forcing Pro-Seal into the holes to capture the old rivet tails, dipping
the
new rivets.

Once the port holes are cut, I'll clean everything inside as much as
possible (lint-free processes, of course) then do good surface prep of
exposed metal around the edges of the existing Pro-Seal, and making sure
everything is as clean as possible again before applying PR-182 adhesion
promoter to the existing Pro-Seal. (See PR-182 at *
http://tinyurl.com/6rjz2ft* for example.) Then I'll apply another layer or
two of Pro-Seal over everything, with particular attention to suspect
locations, filleting out over the prepped bare metal. Finally, I'll
overcoat everything with the less viscous, brushable Pro-Seal Type A top
coat.

To close up, I'll make sure all parts, surfaces, rivets and clecos are
properly prepped. I plan to close up the doublers and covers with the wing
turned over again right side up, bottom down, working from the bottom
side,
below. I will knock myself out covering and dipping everything through
that
process, and will also use adjacent-bay ports to make sure the neighboring
ports are well covered and brush top coated from the inside. (Getting
around the baffles may be problematic, but....) The outboard port under
the
filler neck will be done last, so I can attempt to add a brushable top
coat
through the filler neck even on that one.

Of course, throughout I will observe temp and curing controls and
frequently apply secret incantations, make fervent appeals to various
deities, etc. I'll probably wait at least 10 days for a good cure (all the
while taking large doses of anti-anxiety medication) before air testing,
then final rinse and dry, check finger strainer & sump fittings, etc.

Or something like that. Then I'm going to paint the whole thing,
reassemble, and [gasp!] re-weigh, of course. Should be flying again
sometime before 2013. :-(

Ron

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Roland Kriening
<kriening@rogers.com>wrote:
I like the idea of access ports and would also go with CNC cut plates, if
only they didn't want to charge me over $100 for shipping. Seems once
they
sense a border crossing, the opportunity to make some extra money grabs
hold. So much for living on the same continent.

Seems like an academic yet simple question Ron, but how would one ensure
no
leaks from the six new plates. I always try to think things through
thoroughly before cutting (learned the hard way $$$). Cutting into the
bottom of a tank really scares and newbie like me. I really like your
idea,
but I do see a lot more proseal in my future. Can you share your
thoughts.
Perhaps I am over thinking this again.

Roland



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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by Rick Muller
Interesting thoughts.... so if you seal these access ports with flush
rivets as I have done..... I have to ask myself.... why did I put them on
the BOTTOM of the wing where they are more likely to leak due to
hydrostatic pressure than on the top of the wing??? Hind site is always
20/20.

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Mike Davis <mike.davis@dcsol.com> wrote:
Murphy makes them for the Moose... but only every other bay... so I just
ordered extra with my kit so I could have one in every bay.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

I noticed today that Vans Aircraft sells Flush Mount Fuel Tank Access
Covers
and Doublers. Might be less expensive than having them custom made for
you.
Check out their web site.

Regards,

Jerry Folkerts
SR #093
www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ron
Shannon
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:17 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

There is no guarantee against future leaks. A surprising number of "wet
wing" integral aircraft tanks are plagued with seepage or worse at some
point in their lives, in Rebels and everything else. My plans:

First, I'll again review all the discussions about sealing tanks in
general, including Wayne's recent detailed suggestions, comments about
suspect areas, etc. Among his many other points, for new construction, I
liked his idea of putting in access ports even before the bottom skin
goes
onto the wing, anticipating a need to get in later, but doing a more
certain job of sealing the ports while it's easy to get at both sides,
including the "bath tub" phase before the top goes on. (As noted before,
I
didn't have the joy of building my original tanks.)

Before cutting ports (any day now) I have rinsed the insides with a mild
degreaser in warm water, mostly to assure all fuel is out, then warm
rinsed
and blow dried that (with a heat gun far away, blowing warm air through a
5
ft. long 1" polyurethane tube, duct taped into the filler neck) realizing
that the real good cleaning will have to wait until after I'm into the
tanks and done with machining.

My plan is to do the machining with the wing off, on a table, bottom side
up, of course. When cutting and drilling, I'll try to get a "bib" or
"napkin" inside under the work area as soon as possible in the process,
to
catch as much of the cutting and drilling filings, etc., as possible.
I'll
remove, dip and reset a couple of bottom rivets that are still suspect,
forcing Pro-Seal into the holes to capture the old rivet tails, dipping
the
new rivets.

Once the port holes are cut, I'll clean everything inside as much as
possible (lint-free processes, of course) then do good surface prep of
exposed metal around the edges of the existing Pro-Seal, and making sure
everything is as clean as possible again before applying PR-182 adhesion
promoter to the existing Pro-Seal. (See PR-182 at *
http://tinyurl.com/6rjz2ft* for example.) Then I'll apply another layer
or
two of Pro-Seal over everything, with particular attention to suspect
locations, filleting out over the prepped bare metal. Finally, I'll
overcoat everything with the less viscous, brushable Pro-Seal Type A top
coat.

To close up, I'll make sure all parts, surfaces, rivets and clecos are
properly prepped. I plan to close up the doublers and covers with the
wing
turned over again right side up, bottom down, working from the bottom
side,
below. I will knock myself out covering and dipping everything through
that
process, and will also use adjacent-bay ports to make sure the
neighboring
ports are well covered and brush top coated from the inside. (Getting
around the baffles may be problematic, but....) The outboard port under
the
filler neck will be done last, so I can attempt to add a brushable top
coat
through the filler neck even on that one.

Of course, throughout I will observe temp and curing controls and
frequently apply secret incantations, make fervent appeals to various
deities, etc. I'll probably wait at least 10 days for a good cure (all
the
while taking large doses of anti-anxiety medication) before air testing,
then final rinse and dry, check finger strainer & sump fittings, etc.

Or something like that. Then I'm going to paint the whole thing,
reassemble, and [gasp!] re-weigh, of course. Should be flying again
sometime before 2013. :-(

Ron

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Roland Kriening
<kriening@rogers.com>wrote:
I like the idea of access ports and would also go with CNC cut plates,
if
only they didn't want to charge me over $100 for shipping. Seems once
they
sense a border crossing, the opportunity to make some extra money grabs
hold. So much for living on the same continent.

Seems like an academic yet simple question Ron, but how would one ensure
no
leaks from the six new plates. I always try to think things through
thoroughly before cutting (learned the hard way $$$). Cutting into the
bottom of a tank really scares and newbie like me. I really like your
idea,
but I do see a lot more proseal in my future. Can you share your
thoughts.
Perhaps I am over thinking this again.

Roland



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Rick.H.Muller@gmail.com
303 641 6623




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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by Wayne G. O'Shea
Because there's not enough room between the stringers in the top! ;O)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Muller" <rick.h.muller@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Interesting thoughts.... so if you seal these access ports with flush
rivets as I have done..... I have to ask myself.... why did I put them on
the BOTTOM of the wing where they are more likely to leak due to
hydrostatic pressure than on the top of the wing??? Hind site is always
20/20.

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Mike Davis <mike.davis@dcsol.com> wrote:
Murphy makes them for the Moose... but only every other bay... so I just
ordered extra with my kit so I could have one in every bay.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

I noticed today that Vans Aircraft sells Flush Mount Fuel Tank Access
Covers
and Doublers. Might be less expensive than having them custom made for
you.
Check out their web site.

Regards,

Jerry Folkerts
SR #093
www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ron
Shannon
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:17 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

There is no guarantee against future leaks. A surprising number of "wet
wing" integral aircraft tanks are plagued with seepage or worse at some
point in their lives, in Rebels and everything else. My plans:

First, I'll again review all the discussions about sealing tanks in
general, including Wayne's recent detailed suggestions, comments about
suspect areas, etc. Among his many other points, for new construction,
I
liked his idea of putting in access ports even before the bottom skin
goes
onto the wing, anticipating a need to get in later, but doing a more
certain job of sealing the ports while it's easy to get at both sides,
including the "bath tub" phase before the top goes on. (As noted
before,
I
didn't have the joy of building my original tanks.)

Before cutting ports (any day now) I have rinsed the insides with a
mild
degreaser in warm water, mostly to assure all fuel is out, then warm
rinsed
and blow dried that (with a heat gun far away, blowing warm air through
a
5
ft. long 1" polyurethane tube, duct taped into the filler neck)
realizing
that the real good cleaning will have to wait until after I'm into the
tanks and done with machining.

My plan is to do the machining with the wing off, on a table, bottom
side
up, of course. When cutting and drilling, I'll try to get a "bib" or
"napkin" inside under the work area as soon as possible in the process,
to
catch as much of the cutting and drilling filings, etc., as possible.
I'll
remove, dip and reset a couple of bottom rivets that are still suspect,
forcing Pro-Seal into the holes to capture the old rivet tails, dipping
the
new rivets.

Once the port holes are cut, I'll clean everything inside as much as
possible (lint-free processes, of course) then do good surface prep of
exposed metal around the edges of the existing Pro-Seal, and making
sure
everything is as clean as possible again before applying PR-182
adhesion
promoter to the existing Pro-Seal. (See PR-182 at *
http://tinyurl.com/6rjz2ft* for example.) Then I'll apply another layer
or
two of Pro-Seal over everything, with particular attention to suspect
locations, filleting out over the prepped bare metal. Finally, I'll
overcoat everything with the less viscous, brushable Pro-Seal Type A
top
coat.

To close up, I'll make sure all parts, surfaces, rivets and clecos are
properly prepped. I plan to close up the doublers and covers with the
wing
turned over again right side up, bottom down, working from the bottom
side,
below. I will knock myself out covering and dipping everything through
that
process, and will also use adjacent-bay ports to make sure the
neighboring
ports are well covered and brush top coated from the inside. (Getting
around the baffles may be problematic, but....) The outboard port under
the
filler neck will be done last, so I can attempt to add a brushable top
coat
through the filler neck even on that one.

Of course, throughout I will observe temp and curing controls and
frequently apply secret incantations, make fervent appeals to various
deities, etc. I'll probably wait at least 10 days for a good cure (all
the
while taking large doses of anti-anxiety medication) before air
testing,
then final rinse and dry, check finger strainer & sump fittings, etc.

Or something like that. Then I'm going to paint the whole thing,
reassemble, and [gasp!] re-weigh, of course. Should be flying again
sometime before 2013. :-(

Ron

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Roland Kriening
<kriening@rogers.com>wrote:
if
no idea,

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Rick.H.Muller@gmail.com
303 641 6623




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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by Ron Shannon
[APOLOGETIC DIGRESSION: I'm pretty sure this discussion is more than some
folks on the list want to read, especially with the hyper-verbose guy from
WA leading the whining. This can't possibly be enlightening enough to
everyone to put up with all this, so apologies are due, along with thanks
for your patience.]

---------------------------------

Thanks for clarifying once again, Wayne. I'm taking _every one_ of your
suggestions, putting each on a separate 3x5 index card, along with my own
ideas on more cards, and a bunch from 10+ years of archives, and putting
them all in the correct order on my dining table -- right now!! ;-) That
used to be the only way to organize anything, right? Also having nightmares
about a bathtub that can never be filled up.

Unfortunately.... after a new development about an hour ago, I'm thinking
that to keep the fuel in the tanks where it belongs, I'll have to remove
all the existing Pro-Seal and start over, because....

To recap, the tanks were carefully drained, about 11/18, and sat with
filler necks open (bug screened) for about 6 weeks before they were taken
off the plane. They sat top-up and open on the table for another week
before I looked in to find small puddles of fuel along a couple stringers.
Wow. It came from somewhere.

Then I rinsed out the tank twice, drained and dried it with warm air flow
for 7-8 hours. Then I flipped the wing over, bottom-side up, with filler
neck taped off underneath, where it's been sitting for another week.
Getting ready to do more stuff today, I noticed the outlets still smelled
rather gassy, so I thought I'd blow it out some more. For good measure, I
lifted the trailing edge about 8" for about 30 seconds, thinking any
moisture would at least flow out over the interior skin and have more
surface area from which to evaporate.

I went to do something else for a couple minutes, then came back and
found... blue fuel seepage coming out of a couple of known-leaky rivets on
the bottom skin -- which for about a week now, has been high!!. The only
way I can imagine that could happen is if there are actual pockets or voids
between the Pro-Seal and the bottom skin (which again, has been on top for
at least a week)... and enough fuel in them that merely tipping the wing a
few degrees caused fuel in the pocket to weep UPWARD through those rivets!!

In such a gaseous environment the metaphor is unfortunate, but... this is a
real mind blower.

(The problem is more than a couple of rivets. After 50 mostly turbulent
hours to OSH and back last summer, I was seeing a dripping drop every 10-15
seconds from the aft inboard ends of both tanks.)

So... I'm thinking that if, as it seems, there are actual pockets under the
existing Pro-Seal, trapping fuel for two months, lasting right through two
rinse cycles, drying, and flipping upside down... then covering over the
existing Pro-Seal may very well not do the job no matter how well I can
prep the adjacent metal. Maybe I SHOULD be biting the bullet (no wait,
artillery shell) and prepare to remove ALL the Pro-Seal with PolyGone and
start over.

Cut bottom ports, remove top skin, or both? Arrgh!!

Ron


On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>wrote:
Just to clarify Ron (but good to see someone was at least reading all that
verbal diarrhoea) ... "Among his many other points, for new construction, I
liked his idea of putting in access ports even before the bottom skin goes
onto the wing, anticipating a need to get in later, but doing a more
certain
job of sealing the ports while it's easy to get at both sides, including
the
"bath tub" phase before the top goes on. (As noted before, I didn't have
the
joy of building my original tanks.)"

While that may very well be a great idea.. it's not why I do it. The SR
wings originally came with two access holes cut in the lower tank skins..
why only two?.. I have no idea in a four bay tank skin with solid ribs
between bays!... but I just sealed them up right from the start so they
were
done. Had no intention of going in there ever again.. but the option exists
for sure.

Another "food for thought" for you though... since you're cutting holes in
the bottom skins... would it be wise to do your cleaning, sealing, etc..
let
it cure and then seal off the fuel filler neck with a vent free cap and do
the "bath tub" trick as full as you can and let sit for a few days upside
down. Would at least negate numerous leak possibilities before closing up
those ports.

Wayne



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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by Al
If my memory serves me right, Keith at Montana Float Co. also sold access
covers. It may be worth a call.
Al

www.montanafloat.com/
4986 Farm to Market Road Libby, MT 59923-7661
(406) 293-9026




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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by Mike Davis
Haven't built mine yet, but I believe the intention was to leave them open
until the last thing... this way you have access to the inside of the wing
when putting the top skins on. But I intend to follows Wayne's methods and
I won't have to worry about any leaks! ;-)

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Muller" <rick.h.muller@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Interesting thoughts.... so if you seal these access ports with flush
rivets as I have done..... I have to ask myself.... why did I put them on
the BOTTOM of the wing where they are more likely to leak due to
hydrostatic pressure than on the top of the wing??? Hind site is always
20/20.

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Mike Davis <mike.davis@dcsol.com> wrote:
Murphy makes them for the Moose... but only every other bay... so I just
ordered extra with my kit so I could have one in every bay.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

I noticed today that Vans Aircraft sells Flush Mount Fuel Tank Access
Covers
and Doublers. Might be less expensive than having them custom made for
you.
Check out their web site.

Regards,

Jerry Folkerts
SR #093
www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ron
Shannon
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:17 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

There is no guarantee against future leaks. A surprising number of "wet
wing" integral aircraft tanks are plagued with seepage or worse at some
point in their lives, in Rebels and everything else. My plans:

First, I'll again review all the discussions about sealing tanks in
general, including Wayne's recent detailed suggestions, comments about
suspect areas, etc. Among his many other points, for new construction,
I
liked his idea of putting in access ports even before the bottom skin
goes
onto the wing, anticipating a need to get in later, but doing a more
certain job of sealing the ports while it's easy to get at both sides,
including the "bath tub" phase before the top goes on. (As noted
before,
I
didn't have the joy of building my original tanks.)

Before cutting ports (any day now) I have rinsed the insides with a
mild
degreaser in warm water, mostly to assure all fuel is out, then warm
rinsed
and blow dried that (with a heat gun far away, blowing warm air through
a
5
ft. long 1" polyurethane tube, duct taped into the filler neck)
realizing
that the real good cleaning will have to wait until after I'm into the
tanks and done with machining.

My plan is to do the machining with the wing off, on a table, bottom
side
up, of course. When cutting and drilling, I'll try to get a "bib" or
"napkin" inside under the work area as soon as possible in the process,
to
catch as much of the cutting and drilling filings, etc., as possible.
I'll
remove, dip and reset a couple of bottom rivets that are still suspect,
forcing Pro-Seal into the holes to capture the old rivet tails, dipping
the
new rivets.

Once the port holes are cut, I'll clean everything inside as much as
possible (lint-free processes, of course) then do good surface prep of
exposed metal around the edges of the existing Pro-Seal, and making
sure
everything is as clean as possible again before applying PR-182
adhesion
promoter to the existing Pro-Seal. (See PR-182 at *
http://tinyurl.com/6rjz2ft* for example.) Then I'll apply another layer
or
two of Pro-Seal over everything, with particular attention to suspect
locations, filleting out over the prepped bare metal. Finally, I'll
overcoat everything with the less viscous, brushable Pro-Seal Type A
top
coat.

To close up, I'll make sure all parts, surfaces, rivets and clecos are
properly prepped. I plan to close up the doublers and covers with the
wing
turned over again right side up, bottom down, working from the bottom
side,
below. I will knock myself out covering and dipping everything through
that
process, and will also use adjacent-bay ports to make sure the
neighboring
ports are well covered and brush top coated from the inside. (Getting
around the baffles may be problematic, but....) The outboard port under
the
filler neck will be done last, so I can attempt to add a brushable top
coat
through the filler neck even on that one.

Of course, throughout I will observe temp and curing controls and
frequently apply secret incantations, make fervent appeals to various
deities, etc. I'll probably wait at least 10 days for a good cure (all
the
while taking large doses of anti-anxiety medication) before air
testing,
then final rinse and dry, check finger strainer & sump fittings, etc.

Or something like that. Then I'm going to paint the whole thing,
reassemble, and [gasp!] re-weigh, of course. Should be flying again
sometime before 2013. :-(

Ron

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Roland Kriening
<kriening@rogers.com>wrote:
if
no idea,

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303 641 6623




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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by Wayne G. O'Shea
I think I said it way back Ron... drill the top skin off and be done with
all the guess work. Get in there.. do it right.. ONCE !

With top skin out of the way... you can remove old sealer.. prep all
adjoining surfaces and coat everything well enough to get a "bath tub" again
and seal all the flange overlaps. They'll take some work, but it can be done
without pulling them apart.

Then make a new top skin, if you can't get the old one cleaned well enough,
and seal/rivet it down. I'm suspecting if you're having this much problem
then the builder didn't prep things and the top skin will peel right off
once the rivets are gone. What I use for a "persuader" is a 4' length of 1"
x 1/4" plate ground to a chisle point on one end.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

[APOLOGETIC DIGRESSION: I'm pretty sure this discussion is more than some
folks on the list want to read, especially with the hyper-verbose guy from
WA leading the whining. This can't possibly be enlightening enough to
everyone to put up with all this, so apologies are due, along with thanks
for your patience.]

---------------------------------

Thanks for clarifying once again, Wayne. I'm taking _every one_ of your
suggestions, putting each on a separate 3x5 index card, along with my own
ideas on more cards, and a bunch from 10+ years of archives, and putting
them all in the correct order on my dining table -- right now!! ;-) That
used to be the only way to organize anything, right? Also having
nightmares
about a bathtub that can never be filled up.

Unfortunately.... after a new development about an hour ago, I'm thinking
that to keep the fuel in the tanks where it belongs, I'll have to remove
all the existing Pro-Seal and start over, because....

To recap, the tanks were carefully drained, about 11/18, and sat with
filler necks open (bug screened) for about 6 weeks before they were taken
off the plane. They sat top-up and open on the table for another week
before I looked in to find small puddles of fuel along a couple stringers.
Wow. It came from somewhere.

Then I rinsed out the tank twice, drained and dried it with warm air flow
for 7-8 hours. Then I flipped the wing over, bottom-side up, with filler
neck taped off underneath, where it's been sitting for another week.
Getting ready to do more stuff today, I noticed the outlets still smelled
rather gassy, so I thought I'd blow it out some more. For good measure, I
lifted the trailing edge about 8" for about 30 seconds, thinking any
moisture would at least flow out over the interior skin and have more
surface area from which to evaporate.

I went to do something else for a couple minutes, then came back and
found... blue fuel seepage coming out of a couple of known-leaky rivets on
the bottom skin -- which for about a week now, has been high!!. The only
way I can imagine that could happen is if there are actual pockets or
voids
between the Pro-Seal and the bottom skin (which again, has been on top for
at least a week)... and enough fuel in them that merely tipping the wing a
few degrees caused fuel in the pocket to weep UPWARD through those
rivets!!

In such a gaseous environment the metaphor is unfortunate, but... this is
a
real mind blower.

(The problem is more than a couple of rivets. After 50 mostly turbulent
hours to OSH and back last summer, I was seeing a dripping drop every
10-15
seconds from the aft inboard ends of both tanks.)

So... I'm thinking that if, as it seems, there are actual pockets under
the
existing Pro-Seal, trapping fuel for two months, lasting right through two
rinse cycles, drying, and flipping upside down... then covering over the
existing Pro-Seal may very well not do the job no matter how well I can
prep the adjacent metal. Maybe I SHOULD be biting the bullet (no wait,
artillery shell) and prepare to remove ALL the Pro-Seal with PolyGone and
start over.

Cut bottom ports, remove top skin, or both? Arrgh!!

Ron


On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea
<oifa@irishfield.on.ca>wrote:
Just to clarify Ron (but good to see someone was at least reading all
that
verbal diarrhoea) ... "Among his many other points, for new construction,
I
liked his idea of putting in access ports even before the bottom skin
goes
onto the wing, anticipating a need to get in later, but doing a more
certain
job of sealing the ports while it's easy to get at both sides, including
the
"bath tub" phase before the top goes on. (As noted before, I didn't have
the
joy of building my original tanks.)"

While that may very well be a great idea.. it's not why I do it. The SR
wings originally came with two access holes cut in the lower tank skins..
why only two?.. I have no idea in a four bay tank skin with solid ribs
between bays!... but I just sealed them up right from the start so they
were
done. Had no intention of going in there ever again.. but the option
exists
for sure.

Another "food for thought" for you though... since you're cutting holes
in
the bottom skins... would it be wise to do your cleaning, sealing, etc..
let
it cure and then seal off the fuel filler neck with a vent free cap and
do
the "bath tub" trick as full as you can and let sit for a few days upside
down. Would at least negate numerous leak possibilities before closing up
those ports.

Wayne



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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by Ron Shannon
Wayne,

You're probably right to favor the top skin strategy, emboldened as we are
by the discovery of PolyGone, of course. ;-)

The bottom line question is which approach should be taken first, and which
will be done next or last as backup, if need be. The logic to solve that
riddle isn't real clear unless one makes some assumptions about the actual
tank condition and the odds of success. Even then it's dicey.

Fortunately, thanks to this erudite discussion, I have finally discovered
_the_ ultimate, almost foolproof approach. [Ed. As only he could verify.]

However, so as not to burden this patient mailing list any more, I've
posted this veritable holy grail of a procedure at
http://n254mr.com/node/1863 [Ed. Shameless promotion. Hard up for web
traffic, no doubt.] Most important, be forewarned that it's not suitable
reading for everyone, certainly not for the average, impressionable builder
who, upon seeing and gradually comprehending it, might just throw in the
towel. Only the mature, emotionally stable, obsessively curious or
terminally desperate builder [like me] should risk reading this difficult
but powerful remedy, and even among those, only after ample fortification
with one's beverage of choice... and/or at least coffee. ;-)

Thanks all. Will report results, sometime before hell freezes over. Onward.

Ron




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[rebel-builders] Tank bottom ports

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm
by mikeh
Ron,
While you sometimes go on a bit about things I may not worry about, I
greatly appreciate your contributions to this site. And fuel tanks leaking
is something we all have a great interest in. I've spent some time debating
the pros and cons of fitting access ports during the build and have taken
the optimistic view and decided to omit them, and fit some later if necessary.
Keep those contributions coming! And of course very many thanks to
Wayne as well.
Cheers Mike 818R in OZ
On 1/24/2012 2:24 PM, rshannon@cruzcom.com wrote to
rebel-builders:





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