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[rebel-builders] Re: tank bottom skin material

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Jeff Micheal

[rebel-builders] Re: tank bottom skin material

Post by Jeff Micheal » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Take my word for it........ trust me I know first hand.... really.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:
Perhaps it's 5052?

Ron


On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
wrote:
Is the .040 tank bottom skin 6061-T6 or something else? There are no
visible markings on mine, but they look different than the surrounding
6061.
Ron



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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Re: tank bottom skin material

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Of course I believe you, Jeff! ;-)

'm ordering 6 pairs of fuel tank access port covers and doubler rings from
a CNC shop and, for better or worse, their 2024 is almost twice as
expensive as 6061, so it will be the latter. :-)

Ron


On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Jeff Micheal <westcoastkitplanes@gmail.com
wrote:
Take my word for it........ trust me I know first hand.... really.




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Jeff Micheal

[rebel-builders] Re: tank bottom skin material

Post by Jeff Micheal » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Ron,

If I remember correctly, you were concerned about sealing rivets if you
chose to put in tank access covers. So this leads me to the question of why
you would want to put in access cover doubler's and tank covers?

Is it the flush tank look you're going for? Cause flush mounting the covers
will not make you go faster..... and btw without doubler's won't slow you
down either.

Cheers,
Jeff


On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:
Of course I believe you, Jeff! ;-)

'm ordering 6 pairs of fuel tank access port covers and doubler rings from
a CNC shop and, for better or worse, their 2024 is almost twice as
expensive as 6061, so it will be the latter. :-)

Ron


On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Jeff Micheal <
westcoastkitplanes@gmail.com
wrote:
Take my word for it........ trust me I know first hand.... really.




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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Re: tank bottom skin material

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

[ Ed: Thread fork alert! ]

Understood, and exhaustively considered, of course. Obviously, flush covers
require almost twice as many rivets as surface mounted covers with no
doublers. Just a personal choice, made with eyes wide open -- I think. More
than one expert builder I know of has chosen flush covers. If they can do
it, I can do it -- maybe! ;-)

Ron


On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Jeff Micheal
<westcoastkitplanes@gmail.com>wrote:
Ron,

If I remember correctly, you were concerned about sealing rivets if you
chose to put in tank access covers. So this leads me to the question of why
you would want to put in access cover doubler's and tank covers?

Is it the flush tank look you're going for? Cause flush mounting the covers
will not make you go faster..... and btw without doubler's won't slow you
down either.

Cheers,
Jeff


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Jeff Micheal

[rebel-builders] Re: tank bottom skin material

Post by Jeff Micheal » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Just putting in doublers makes access holes smaller w twice the work and
chance for leaks. Being an "expert" doesn't make the choice rite.
On 2012-01-22 2:39 PM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:
[ Ed: Thread fork alert! ]

Understood, and exhaustively considered, of course. Obviously, flush covers
require almost twice as many rivets as surface mounted covers with no
doublers. Just a personal choice, made with eyes wide open -- I think. More
than one expert builder I know of has chosen flush covers. If they can do
it, I can do it -- maybe! ;-)

Ron


On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Jeff Micheal
<westcoastkitplanes@gmail.com>wrote:
Ron,

If I remember correctly, you were concerned about sealing rivets if you
chose to put in tank access covers. So this leads me to the question of
why
you would want to put in access cover doubler's and tank covers?

Is it the flush tank look you're going for? Cause flush mounting the
covers
will not make you go faster..... and btw without doubler's won't slow you
down either.

Cheers,
Jeff


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Drew Dalgleish

[rebel-builders] Re: tank bottom skin material

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Hi Ron I certainly understand Jeff and Wayne's point. They have
customers that are looking at the billed hours. You and I have all the
time in the world to make our planes esthetically pleasing to us. If I
had to open my tank I would go for flush patches too just because I can.
I don't think that I'd need to design a patch with CAD though. A
sharpie, coffee can and a straight edge is all you really need.

A On 22/01/2012 5:46 PM, Jeff Micheal wrote:
Just putting in doublers makes access holes smaller w twice the work and
chance for leaks. Being an "expert" doesn't make the choice rite.
On 2012-01-22 2:39 PM, "Ron Shannon"<rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:
[ Ed: Thread fork alert! ]

Understood, and exhaustively considered, of course. Obviously, flush covers
require almost twice as many rivets as surface mounted covers with no
doublers. Just a personal choice, made with eyes wide open -- I think. More
than one expert builder I know of has chosen flush covers. If they can do
it, I can do it -- maybe! ;-)

Ron


On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Jeff Micheal
<westcoastkitplanes@gmail.com>wrote:
Ron,

If I remember correctly, you were concerned about sealing rivets if you
chose to put in tank access covers. So this leads me to the question of
why
you would want to put in access cover doubler's and tank covers?

Is it the flush tank look you're going for? Cause flush mounting the
covers
will not make you go faster..... and btw without doubler's won't slow you
down either.

Cheers,
Jeff
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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Re: tank bottom skin material

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

The _only_ reason I used CAD software to design these things was to farm
out fabrication to a CNC shop. Of course I don't _need_ to use CAD software
to design covers and doublers, and don't _have_ to farm out the fab to a
machine, but it will save me a lot of time making 18+ of the large
perimeter/doughnut shapes in .040 by hand -- not to mention all the pilot
holes -- and will make the parts more uniform than I ever would. The cost
for 7 pairs of covers & doublers -- $113 USD, including material -- is,
IMHO, quite reasonable. The decision to flush mount does, obviously, entail
more work. That decision having been made, I prefer to minimize as much of
that work as possible, 'cause I'm still lazy. That I could design and fab
these myself is, to me, irrelevant. For those who would rather knock these
out by hand... fine, have at it.

As for the ongoing flush vs. surface mount debate, I'm not eager to
participate. The points made so far are all things I considered at length
before making a decision. No doubt, they will be useful to those still in
decision-making mode, but I've no interest in defending what is just a
personal preference after weighing the issues -- on my own scale. That is,
after all, one reason we build these things -- to do it the way we want,
and produce the result we prefer. (Call me contrary, but the more
emphatically someone asserts his way is the only correct way to do
something, the more careful consideration I tend to give the alternatives.)

Bottom line is I decided to flush mount the covers, and have a procedural
plan that I think will maximize the odds of success. To each his own.

Ron


On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>wrote:
...
I don't think that I'd need to design a patch with CAD though. A
sharpie, coffee can and a straight edge is all you really need.
...




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Drew Dalgleish

[rebel-builders] Re: tank bottom skin material

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

That makes sense. I was imagining only a couple holes.

On 23/01/2012 2:05 PM, Ron Shannon wrote:
The _only_ reason I used CAD software to design these things was to farm
out fabrication to a CNC shop. Of course I don't _need_ to use CAD software
to design covers and doublers, and don't _have_ to farm out the fab to a
machine, but it will save me a lot of time making 18+ of the large
perimeter/doughnut shapes in .040 by hand -- not to mention all the pilot
holes -- and will make the parts more uniform than I ever would. The cost
for 7 pairs of covers& doublers -- $113 USD, including material -- is,
IMHO, quite reasonable. The decision to flush mount does, obviously, entail
more work. That decision having been made, I prefer to minimize as much of
that work as possible, 'cause I'm still lazy. That I could design and fab
these myself is, to me, irrelevant. For those who would rather knock these
out by hand... fine, have at it.

As for the ongoing flush vs. surface mount debate, I'm not eager to
participate. The points made so far are all things I considered at length
before making a decision. No doubt, they will be useful to those still in
decision-making mode, but I've no interest in defending what is just a
personal preference after weighing the issues -- on my own scale. That is,
after all, one reason we build these things -- to do it the way we want,
and produce the result we prefer. (Call me contrary, but the more
emphatically someone asserts his way is the only correct way to do
something, the more careful consideration I tend to give the alternatives.)

Bottom line is I decided to flush mount the covers, and have a procedural
plan that I think will maximize the odds of success. To each his own.

Ron


On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Drew Dalgleish<drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>wrote:
...
I don't think that I'd need to design a patch with CAD though. A
sharpie, coffee can and a straight edge is all you really need.
...




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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Re: tank bottom skin material

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Aye, Drew. CAD/CNC fabrication saves a helluva lot of work, and is cheap.
To wit:

With flush covers on doublers as I've laid it out, there are 4 separate,
nominal 8" X 6" rectangles to cut per port, namely, the tank skin hole, the
cover plate, and the inside and outside of each doubler, each with four
rounded corners, for 16 rounded corners per port. With nominal 0.75"
spacing, there are 65 rivet hole pilots to layout and drill manually per
port -- 39 for the outer doubler-to-skin ring, and 26 for the
cover-to-doubler.

Multiply all those those numbers by six bays (in my case) and that's a ton
of work to do by hand, even using a template or whatever. With the machine
fab, only the 6 tank skin holes and finish rivet hole drilling need to be
done manually. If that amount of work reduction, plus the uniformity and
precision obtained isn't worth a net cost of $75-$80 for a little CNC fab
work -- after backing out the material cost you'd have either way -- I
don't know what is. (IMHO, even if you can get by with as few as two ports,
it's still a no brainer for people as lazy as me.)

Nevertheless, if Ted will do all those cuts, corners and holes just as good
for less, I'll definitely go for it. :-)

Ron

PS - Ralph, you're right, that first CAD file upload was "stinkin' " indeed
-- because I mistakenly uploaded a version without the rivet holes. All
fixed now though, with rivet holes, and virtual deodorizer to boot. ;-)

PS2 - Yes, it's [still] obvious that surface mounting takes less work and
fewer rivet holes.



On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>wrote:
That makes sense. I was imagining only a couple holes.



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