[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:36 pm
Yes, mine will float at the neutral position, too, when I don't have the handle pinned. That's how I know where my neutral is.
But I just can't figure how you don't notice it pick up speed when in reflex. Mine is very obvious. Occasionally, I have forgotten to put it into reflex when setting my throttle and mixture in cruise, and immediately would see a higher fuel burn and rpm to get my normal cruise speed. That would then clue me in to set my reflex.
That's why I was asking you about your wing. I don't really know what differences in a plane affects the use of reflex. Maybe it makes a bigger difference in a heavier amphib like mine? Maybe c of g makes a difference? Wingtips? I have the original stock MAM tips, but slanted down a bit to the tips (almost like a droop).
Even at lower speeds (90 mph), I notice the lower drag when in reflex. But when I get down to 80 mph, my nose starts to rise, and I know then that I have to switch the flap to neutral.
At our cabin, I often take friends for rides around the lake in the summer, and to keep my fuel costs down (I'm cheap), I usually fly at minimum efficient airspeed, which for my plane is about 80 mph in reflex. My fuel burn then is around 5.0 gph at 2000 rpm. I figure that is pretty good for a 360 on amphibs. I do have the electronic ignition which makes a huge difference.
Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:19 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
I do have to push to get reflex. One interesting thing I have noticed is that if I stop the flap handle from going into a detent and let the flaps float where they want to in cruise they sit right at neutral with no force required on my part. Ken, It's good to hear you have achieved 18* in flight. I'll keep working on it. How did you measure your in flight angles?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone
----- Reply message -----
From: "Ken Lehman" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Fri, Jan 13, 2012 6:50 am
One indication might be whether you have to apply pressure to force the flaperons into reflex. Some (most?) take a definite push. Mine do not take any effort to reflex even though the trailing edge is at least an inch above being fared with the wingtip for one notch of reflex. The only time I get any advantage from reflexed is if I'm light or cruising faster than my normal economy 85 knots. I also have the drooped leading edge but I've seen other Rebels with the drooped leading edge also require "push" to reflex them. The drooped leading edge does result in cruising with a higher nose attitude (about 1 degree higher). Faster aircraft like Walter's seem to benefit more from more reflex. Clearly I do not reflex as much.
Another indication is that on the ground with one notch of reflex, my flaperons still droop below the fared with the wingtip position. In flight selecting zero flaperon fares them with the wingtip. In flight I get 18 degrees down whenever I'm below 60 knots. (It takes a firm pull to get 18* at 60 knots even with almost 90* of bend in the flap handle.) For this setup I did have to make sure the mixer arm is snug in the sliding slot so it does not twist under load. I get way more than 18* sitting on the ground but they auto retract to 18* with airloads.
Nevertheless 18* is still mostly lift with no major increase in drag.
In regards to the other oft repeating discussion on flaperons, I would remind builders that it is important to match the angle of the flaperon horns on the flaperons during the build. If they are off very much you will get rolling or stick lateral displacement when you change the flaperon selection. If you really want to finesse this then when you build the torque tube sections inside the fuselage it is OK to build them so the horns that connect to the vertical push pull tubes make the same angle with these push pull tubes that go down to the mixer. The left and right horn (at the roof) will not match perfectly if these angles are the same. The horn that connects to the forward mixer connection will be a couple of degrees lower than the other.
Ken
As I said in a previous post I haven't seen any airspeed gain with reflex. I'm wondering if I should try a substantial increase and see what that does. I used to have 2 notches of about 6 and 10 degrees (measured on the ground), but with my new flap handle set up I only did one notch and set it so the bottom of the flaperon just comes flush with the bottom of the wing thinking that might be the sweet spot.
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But I just can't figure how you don't notice it pick up speed when in reflex. Mine is very obvious. Occasionally, I have forgotten to put it into reflex when setting my throttle and mixture in cruise, and immediately would see a higher fuel burn and rpm to get my normal cruise speed. That would then clue me in to set my reflex.
That's why I was asking you about your wing. I don't really know what differences in a plane affects the use of reflex. Maybe it makes a bigger difference in a heavier amphib like mine? Maybe c of g makes a difference? Wingtips? I have the original stock MAM tips, but slanted down a bit to the tips (almost like a droop).
Even at lower speeds (90 mph), I notice the lower drag when in reflex. But when I get down to 80 mph, my nose starts to rise, and I know then that I have to switch the flap to neutral.
At our cabin, I often take friends for rides around the lake in the summer, and to keep my fuel costs down (I'm cheap), I usually fly at minimum efficient airspeed, which for my plane is about 80 mph in reflex. My fuel burn then is around 5.0 gph at 2000 rpm. I figure that is pretty good for a 360 on amphibs. I do have the electronic ignition which makes a huge difference.
Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:19 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
I do have to push to get reflex. One interesting thing I have noticed is that if I stop the flap handle from going into a detent and let the flaps float where they want to in cruise they sit right at neutral with no force required on my part. Ken, It's good to hear you have achieved 18* in flight. I'll keep working on it. How did you measure your in flight angles?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone
----- Reply message -----
From: "Ken Lehman" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Fri, Jan 13, 2012 6:50 am
One indication might be whether you have to apply pressure to force the flaperons into reflex. Some (most?) take a definite push. Mine do not take any effort to reflex even though the trailing edge is at least an inch above being fared with the wingtip for one notch of reflex. The only time I get any advantage from reflexed is if I'm light or cruising faster than my normal economy 85 knots. I also have the drooped leading edge but I've seen other Rebels with the drooped leading edge also require "push" to reflex them. The drooped leading edge does result in cruising with a higher nose attitude (about 1 degree higher). Faster aircraft like Walter's seem to benefit more from more reflex. Clearly I do not reflex as much.
Another indication is that on the ground with one notch of reflex, my flaperons still droop below the fared with the wingtip position. In flight selecting zero flaperon fares them with the wingtip. In flight I get 18 degrees down whenever I'm below 60 knots. (It takes a firm pull to get 18* at 60 knots even with almost 90* of bend in the flap handle.) For this setup I did have to make sure the mixer arm is snug in the sliding slot so it does not twist under load. I get way more than 18* sitting on the ground but they auto retract to 18* with airloads.
Nevertheless 18* is still mostly lift with no major increase in drag.
In regards to the other oft repeating discussion on flaperons, I would remind builders that it is important to match the angle of the flaperon horns on the flaperons during the build. If they are off very much you will get rolling or stick lateral displacement when you change the flaperon selection. If you really want to finesse this then when you build the torque tube sections inside the fuselage it is OK to build them so the horns that connect to the vertical push pull tubes make the same angle with these push pull tubes that go down to the mixer. The left and right horn (at the roof) will not match perfectly if these angles are the same. The horn that connects to the forward mixer connection will be a couple of degrees lower than the other.
Ken
your optimal reflex? How much of the leading edge hangs below the wing?Walter, what do the bottom of your flaperons look like in flight at
As I said in a previous post I haven't seen any airspeed gain with reflex. I'm wondering if I should try a substantial increase and see what that does. I used to have 2 notches of about 6 and 10 degrees (measured on the ground), but with my new flap handle set up I only did one notch and set it so the bottom of the flaperon just comes flush with the bottom of the wing thinking that might be the sweet spot.
likely I'm just not going to get any love from reflex for some strange reason, when everyone else is.It made no difference, so maybe I just need a bunch more, or more
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone
----- Reply message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2012 11:53 am
I would not want to mess with MAM's 18 degrees max warning. I'm
finding that the only time max flaperon makes much difference is hot
heavy takeoffs from water (pulling the nose higher increases float
drag when you are on the step). That is the only time I would consider
using it even if I had more flaperon available. On land I've found
that the difference between one notch and 3 notches (18
degrees) of flaperon is not nearly as significant to takeoff, obstable
clearance, and landing distance, as I once thought. Of course I do
like to sideslip :) Other Rebels may be different.
Besides - is there anyone here who has NEVER oversped a flap?
Ken
On 11/01/2012 1:02 PM, Walter Klatt wrote:I don’t know how much flap you have now, but between reflex and
flap, you are limited by the mixer box. I have mine set to get the
max reflex that I want, and the rest is flap. For landings, I never
use more than half flap anyway, land or water, and heavily loaded. I
only use full flap for take-offs.
The only time I ever used full flap on landings was back when I was
on wheels and flew in sometimes to an ultralight field, and then
would drag it in with power and full flaps. Could get it very slow
and short if I wanted to. But on regular landings, half flap works
just fine and still lots of control for winds and gusts, esp with
VGs.
I believe getting max reflex is more important than max flaps. JMHO.
Walter
-----Original Message----- From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:02 AM To:
rebel-builders@dcsol.com Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
I'm in the process of rebuilding my flap handle, and considering
increasing the max flap setting. I would severely restrict the
airspeed for the last notch. Has anyone done this who could share
their experience? Thanks
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