[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

You can use "stick".. but it won't turn.. if you get crosswinded. You have
to use your feet.. full left rudder.. point back at runway c/line... on
line.. full right rudder to straighten out and land. I learned that the
first time when the tree was getting pretty big in front of me and she
wouldn't turn! LOL

..and Yes I'm mechanically push pulled to floor mounted flap handle. Takes a
lot of the teleflex slop out.. but there is still a fair amount of horn
flex, but yes I keep more flap active in flight than a teleflex equipped
bird... and yes.. I've pulled flaps when faster than I should have
been....more than once.

----- Original Message -----
From: <jessejenks72@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:18 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps

If I remember correctly, Wayne you don't have a teleflex in your system
either so you probably get close to that 21degrees in flight. I know that
I don't get close to what I have rigged for on the ground due to all the
flex. Do you mean you "shouldn't" use aileron with full flap, or can't?
Mine works pretty good, but there again you are seeing more flap than me.
I may have to come up with some kind of protractor that is attached to the
wing and can be seen in flight before I actually know where my flaps are.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2012 3:16 pm


As Nigel suggests be careful playing with too much flap with only two
hangers/per holding them on.

I'm assuming you're running the full length flaperons Jesse.. as that's
how
I sold that kit to you. I've always had mine going to 21 degrees... as
full
flap... and mine are completely covered in aluminum which adds a bit of
structural strength to the spans and has never been an issue that I've
seen
or noted during inspections.... but I sure wouldn't go any further than
that
as there is no considerable differential when they are down full. You can
NOT turn with stick at full flaperon down.. you have to use your feet and
point it where you wanna be.

----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:24 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Max flaps

Hi Jesse

Be very careful doing that - the flap attach points on the rear spar of
the
wing will only take so much load, not sure how much (if any) spare you
may
have to play with !!

Nig
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: 11 January 2012 17:02
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps


I'm in the process of rebuilding my flap handle, and considering
increasing
the max flap setting. I would severely restrict the airspeed for the last
notch. Has anyone done this who could share their experience?
Thanks

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone




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[Bob Palmer]

Just after installing the ailerons and flaps while sitting back admiring
our work I noticed a very surprising thing. That is if we rigged our
flaperons properly (and who can really tell from the manual). With full
flap and full left or right flaperon, the up going flaperon only goes as
far as neutral. So the down going flaperon is a big barn door and the up
going flaperon is essentially faired. It occurred to me that would tend
to cause yaw and induce roll in the opposite direction to expected if
the yaw was not corrected! As it turns out there is plenty of control as
rigged but, I wouldn't want any more flaperon than we have. I found that
VGs work very well at reducing the stall speed down into the 36-38 mph
range (at gross wt.). A little throttle and you could be down another 10
mph. while still having good control with the rudder.
just my opinion

Bob. 773E

On 1/11/2012 4:32 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

You can use "stick".. but it won't turn.. if you get crosswinded. You have
to use your feet.. full left rudder.. point back at runway c/line... on
line.. full right rudder to straighten out and land. I learned that the
first time when the tree was getting pretty big in front of me and she
wouldn't turn! LOL

..and Yes I'm mechanically push pulled to floor mounted flap handle. Takes a
lot of the teleflex slop out.. but there is still a fair amount of horn
flex, but yes I keep more flap active in flight than a teleflex equipped
bird... and yes.. I've pulled flaps when faster than I should have
been....more than once.

----- Original Message -----
From:<jessejenks72@gmail.com>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:18 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps

If I remember correctly, Wayne you don't have a teleflex in your system
either so you probably get close to that 21degrees in flight. I know that
I don't get close to what I have rigged for on the ground due to all the
flex. Do you mean you "shouldn't" use aileron with full flap, or can't?
Mine works pretty good, but there again you are seeing more flap than me.
I may have to come up with some kind of protractor that is attached to the
wing and can be seen in flight before I actually know where my flaps are.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea"<oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2012 3:16 pm


As Nigel suggests be careful playing with too much flap with only two
hangers/per holding them on.

I'm assuming you're running the full length flaperons Jesse.. as that's
how
I sold that kit to you. I've always had mine going to 21 degrees... as
full
flap... and mine are completely covered in aluminum which adds a bit of
structural strength to the spans and has never been an issue that I've
seen
or noted during inspections.... but I sure wouldn't go any further than
that
as there is no considerable differential when they are down full. You can
NOT turn with stick at full flaperon down.. you have to use your feet and
point it where you wanna be.

----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith"<admin@airnig.co.uk>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:24 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Max flaps

Hi Jesse

Be very careful doing that - the flap attach points on the rear spar of
the
wing will only take so much load, not sure how much (if any) spare you
may
have to play with !!

Nig
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: 11 January 2012 17:02
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps


I'm in the process of rebuilding my flap handle, and considering
increasing
the max flap setting. I would severely restrict the airspeed for the last
notch. Has anyone done this who could share their experience?
Thanks

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone




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[Ben Ransom]

Jesse, I can't recall ...do you have VGs on your wing and/or anywhere else?
I wonder about getting it slower with VGs on both the wing and under tail,
Fife tips, and maybe also with longer main gear (or bigger tires) to not
have the tail hit too early.

Seems like all that should do the trick, and especially if not too heavy.

Dang those tricked out cubs landing in the 20s (with power)!
-Ben



On 1/11/12 1:16 PM, "jessejenks72@gmail.com" <jessejenks72@gmail.com>
wrote:

I can already! But only with power. I can land power off at about 45 kts
over the
fence. I want to get that down to 40.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "karl" <khipp@99victor.com>
To:
Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2012 12:25 pm


I never use FULL flaps as it is because the controls get too heavy.
I cannot imagine another notch.

Add VG's they will lower your stall 8mph--If thats not enough add some
Zenair slats. You should be able to fly around then at 30 mph.

Karl Hipp





On 1/11/2012 12:53 PM, Ken wrote:

I would not want to mess with MAM's 18
degrees max warning. I'm finding that the only time max flaperon makes
much difference is hot heavy takeoffs from water (pulling the nose
higher increases float drag when you are on the step). That is the only
time I would consider using it even if I had more flaperon available. On
land I've found that the difference between one notch and 3 notches (18
degrees) of flaperon is not nearly as significant to takeoff, obstable
clearance, and landing distance, as I once thought. Of course I do like
to sideslip :) Other Rebels may be different.

Besides - is there anyone here who has NEVER oversped a flap?

Ken

On 11/01/2012 1:02 PM, Walter Klatt wrote:

I don’t know how much flap you have now, but between reflex and
flap, you are limited by the mixer box. I have mine set to get the
max reflex that I want, and the rest is flap. For landings, I never
use more than half flap anyway, land or water, and heavily loaded. I
only use full flap for take-offs.

The only time I ever used full flap on landings was back when I was
on wheels and flew in sometimes to an ultralight field, and then
would drag it in with power and full flaps. Could get it very slow
and short if I wanted to. But on regular landings, half flap works
just fine and still lots of control for winds and gusts, esp with
VGs.

I believe getting max reflex is more important than max flaps. JMHO.

Walter

-----Original Message----- From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:02 AM To:
rebel-builders@dcsol.com Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps


I'm in the process of rebuilding my flap handle, and considering
increasing the max flap setting. I would severely restrict the
airspeed for the last notch. Has anyone done this who could share
their experience? Thanks

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[Walter Klatt]

I'll try get some measurements for you next time I am at the hangar. As you know, there is a difference in flight and on the ground. But I will try to set them at where I think they are in flight, and measure how many inches the trailing edge is up from the straight line of the bottom of the wing.

Just a couple questions about your wings. I assume you have VGs, what kind and where did you place yours? I assume you have no cuffs? What wingtips to you have?

Sounds to me like you don't have enough reflex though, if the bottom of the flaps are just flush with the bottom of the wing in reflex. That is more like my neutral.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:24 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps

Walter, what do the bottom of your flaperons look like in flight at your optimal reflex? How much of the leading edge hangs below the wing? As I said in a previous post I haven't seen any airspeed gain with reflex. I'm wondering if I should try a substantial increase and see what that does. I used to have 2 notches of about 6 and 10 degrees (measured on the ground), but with my new flap handle set up I only did one notch and set it so the bottom of the flaperon just comes flush with the bottom of the wing thinking that might be the sweet spot.
It made no difference, so maybe I just need a bunch more, or more likely I'm just not going to get any love from reflex for some strange reason, when everyone else is.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2012 11:53 am


I would not want to mess with MAM's 18
degrees max warning. I'm finding that the only time max flaperon makes much difference is hot heavy takeoffs from water (pulling the nose higher increases float drag when you are on the step). That is the only time I would consider using it even if I had more flaperon available. On land I've found that the difference between one notch and 3 notches (18
degrees) of flaperon is not nearly as significant to takeoff, obstable clearance, and landing distance, as I once thought. Of course I do like to sideslip :) Other Rebels may be different.

Besides - is there anyone here who has NEVER oversped a flap?

Ken

On 11/01/2012 1:02 PM, Walter Klatt wrote:

I don’t know how much flap you have now, but between reflex and flap,
you are limited by the mixer box. I have mine set to get the max
reflex that I want, and the rest is flap. For landings, I never use
more than half flap anyway, land or water, and heavily loaded. I only
use full flap for take-offs.

The only time I ever used full flap on landings was back when I was on
wheels and flew in sometimes to an ultralight field, and then would
drag it in with power and full flaps. Could get it very slow and short
if I wanted to. But on regular landings, half flap works just fine and
still lots of control for winds and gusts, esp with VGs.

I believe getting max reflex is more important than max flaps. JMHO.

Walter

-----Original Message----- From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:02 AM To:
rebel-builders@dcsol.com Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps


I'm in the process of rebuilding my flap handle, and considering
increasing the max flap setting. I would severely restrict the
airspeed for the last notch. Has anyone done this who could share
their experience? Thanks

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[Ken Lehman]

One indication might be whether you have to apply pressure to force the
flaperons into reflex. Some (most?) take a definite push. Mine do not
take any effort to reflex even though the trailing edge is at least an
inch above being fared with the wingtip for one notch of reflex. The
only time I get any advantage from reflexed is if I'm light or cruising
faster than my normal economy 85 knots. I also have the drooped leading
edge but I've seen other Rebels with the drooped leading edge also
require "push" to reflex them. The drooped leading edge does result in
cruising with a higher nose attitude (about 1 degree higher). Faster
aircraft like Walter's seem to benefit more from more reflex. Clearly I
do not reflex as much.

Another indication is that on the ground with one notch of reflex, my
flaperons still droop below the fared with the wingtip position. In
flight selecting zero flaperon fares them with the wingtip. In flight I
get 18 degrees down whenever I'm below 60 knots. (It takes a firm pull
to get 18* at 60 knots even with almost 90* of bend in the flap handle.)
For this setup I did have to make sure the mixer arm is snug in the
sliding slot so it does not twist under load. I get way more than 18*
sitting on the ground but they auto retract to 18* with airloads.
Nevertheless 18* is still mostly lift with no major increase in drag.

In regards to the other oft repeating discussion on flaperons, I would
remind builders that it is important to match the angle of the flaperon
horns on the flaperons during the build. If they are off very much you
will get rolling or stick lateral displacement when you change the
flaperon selection. If you really want to finesse this then when you
build the torque tube sections inside the fuselage it is OK to build
them so the horns that connect to the vertical push pull tubes make the
same angle with these push pull tubes that go down to the mixer. The
left and right horn (at the roof) will not match perfectly if these
angles are the same. The horn that connects to the forward mixer
connection will be a couple of degrees lower than the other.

Ken

Walter, what do the bottom of your flaperons look like in flight at

your optimal reflex? How much of the leading edge hangs below the wing?
As I said in a previous post I haven't seen any airspeed gain with
reflex. I'm wondering if I should try a substantial increase and see
what that does. I used to have 2 notches of about 6 and 10 degrees
(measured on the ground), but with my new flap handle set up I only did
one notch and set it so the bottom of the flaperon just comes flush with
the bottom of the wing thinking that might be the sweet spot.

It made no difference, so maybe I just need a bunch more, or more

likely I'm just not going to get any love from reflex for some strange
reason, when everyone else is.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2012 11:53 am


I would not want to mess with MAM's 18
degrees max warning. I'm finding that the only time max flaperon makes
much difference is hot heavy takeoffs from water (pulling the nose
higher increases float drag when you are on the step). That is the only
time I would consider using it even if I had more flaperon available. On
land I've found that the difference between one notch and 3 notches (18
degrees) of flaperon is not nearly as significant to takeoff, obstable
clearance, and landing distance, as I once thought. Of course I do like
to sideslip :) Other Rebels may be different.

Besides - is there anyone here who has NEVER oversped a flap?

Ken

On 11/01/2012 1:02 PM, Walter Klatt wrote:

I don’t know how much flap you have now, but between reflex and
flap, you are limited by the mixer box. I have mine set to get the
max reflex that I want, and the rest is flap. For landings, I never
use more than half flap anyway, land or water, and heavily loaded. I
only use full flap for take-offs.

The only time I ever used full flap on landings was back when I was
on wheels and flew in sometimes to an ultralight field, and then
would drag it in with power and full flaps. Could get it very slow
and short if I wanted to. But on regular landings, half flap works
just fine and still lots of control for winds and gusts, esp with
VGs.

I believe getting max reflex is more important than max flaps. JMHO.

Walter

-----Original Message----- From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:02 AM To:
rebel-builders@dcsol.com Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps


I'm in the process of rebuilding my flap handle, and considering
increasing the max flap setting. I would severely restrict the
airspeed for the last notch. Has anyone done this who could share
their experience? Thanks

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[Walter Klatt]

Yes, mine take a strong push to put into reflex, and my stick control stiffens up a bit. For that matter, it also takes a strong pull to put into the flap position, which is another reason I just use half flaps for landing. It would be quite a pull to get them into full flap.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ken Lehman
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 6:51 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps

One indication might be whether you have to apply pressure to force the flaperons into reflex. Some (most?) take a definite push. Mine do not take any effort to reflex even though the trailing edge is at least an inch above being fared with the wingtip for one notch of reflex. The only time I get any advantage from reflexed is if I'm light or cruising faster than my normal economy 85 knots. I also have the drooped leading edge but I've seen other Rebels with the drooped leading edge also require "push" to reflex them. The drooped leading edge does result in cruising with a higher nose attitude (about 1 degree higher). Faster aircraft like Walter's seem to benefit more from more reflex. Clearly I do not reflex as much.

Another indication is that on the ground with one notch of reflex, my flaperons still droop below the fared with the wingtip position. In flight selecting zero flaperon fares them with the wingtip. In flight I get 18 degrees down whenever I'm below 60 knots. (It takes a firm pull to get 18* at 60 knots even with almost 90* of bend in the flap handle.) For this setup I did have to make sure the mixer arm is snug in the sliding slot so it does not twist under load. I get way more than 18* sitting on the ground but they auto retract to 18* with airloads.
Nevertheless 18* is still mostly lift with no major increase in drag.

In regards to the other oft repeating discussion on flaperons, I would remind builders that it is important to match the angle of the flaperon horns on the flaperons during the build. If they are off very much you will get rolling or stick lateral displacement when you change the flaperon selection. If you really want to finesse this then when you build the torque tube sections inside the fuselage it is OK to build them so the horns that connect to the vertical push pull tubes make the same angle with these push pull tubes that go down to the mixer. The left and right horn (at the roof) will not match perfectly if these angles are the same. The horn that connects to the forward mixer connection will be a couple of degrees lower than the other.

Ken

Walter, what do the bottom of your flaperons look like in flight at

your optimal reflex? How much of the leading edge hangs below the wing?
As I said in a previous post I haven't seen any airspeed gain with reflex. I'm wondering if I should try a substantial increase and see what that does. I used to have 2 notches of about 6 and 10 degrees (measured on the ground), but with my new flap handle set up I only did one notch and set it so the bottom of the flaperon just comes flush with the bottom of the wing thinking that might be the sweet spot.

It made no difference, so maybe I just need a bunch more, or more

likely I'm just not going to get any love from reflex for some strange reason, when everyone else is.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2012 11:53 am


I would not want to mess with MAM's 18 degrees max warning. I'm
finding that the only time max flaperon makes much difference is hot
heavy takeoffs from water (pulling the nose higher increases float
drag when you are on the step). That is the only time I would consider
using it even if I had more flaperon available. On land I've found
that the difference between one notch and 3 notches (18
degrees) of flaperon is not nearly as significant to takeoff, obstable
clearance, and landing distance, as I once thought. Of course I do
like to sideslip :) Other Rebels may be different.

Besides - is there anyone here who has NEVER oversped a flap?

Ken

On 11/01/2012 1:02 PM, Walter Klatt wrote:

I don’t know how much flap you have now, but between reflex and
flap, you are limited by the mixer box. I have mine set to get the
max reflex that I want, and the rest is flap. For landings, I never
use more than half flap anyway, land or water, and heavily loaded. I
only use full flap for take-offs.

The only time I ever used full flap on landings was back when I was
on wheels and flew in sometimes to an ultralight field, and then
would drag it in with power and full flaps. Could get it very slow
and short if I wanted to. But on regular landings, half flap works
just fine and still lots of control for winds and gusts, esp with
VGs.

I believe getting max reflex is more important than max flaps. JMHO.

Walter

-----Original Message----- From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:02 AM To:
rebel-builders@dcsol.com Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps


I'm in the process of rebuilding my flap handle, and considering
increasing the max flap setting. I would severely restrict the
airspeed for the last notch. Has anyone done this who could share
their experience? Thanks

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