The Murphy Builders Site

Thanks for input, guys. So far, there's a consensus for going the bottom
route first. (I'm particularly impressed that Ken cut bottom holes in the
original tanks just to assure top sealing.) Counterpoints:

Obviously, it can be difficult to identify the true location of a leak from
the point where fuel appears outside. However, it's pretty clear that
perhaps some of the seepage appears around bottom rivets that are well
inside the tank perimeter. It's hard to fathom how those points, within
perimeter and up slope, could be attributable to poor sealing of the top
skin, even where it crosses interior ribs & stringers.

Another oddity is that although my tanks have been drained as much as
possible (even lifting the wings for final drops) and open for more than 45
days, I still have some persistent light weeping around some of the bottom
rivets in two locations, one near tank center! Hard to believe but true.
That would suggest there are areas where fuel is somehow trapped under the
bottom Pro-Seal such that it can't even evaporate. Also suggests more
reason to redo the whole shebang.

If the original top sealing is usually suspect, being the last item done,
from the top down, would sealing new bottom access holes be any more
reliable?

Is getting a new top skin from MAM a viable option? I'm guessing even if
MAM shipped one, eventually, there could be some anomalies trying to match
with existing holes, and the only real option for a new skin would be to
use the old as template for most of the holes, back marking the rest.

Assuming I cut bottom holes, how should I clean the existing Pro-Seal
inside to prepare it for overcoats? Slosh with [aviation] Simple Green,
well diluted in warm water? Scrub as best possible through the bottom holes
with some light degreasing solution? And/or...?

Ron




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Is there a way to do it so there are no leaks from new.

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-01-06, at 2:06 PM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

Thanks for input, guys. So far, there's a consensus for going the bottom
route first. (I'm particularly impressed that Ken cut bottom holes in the
original tanks just to assure top sealing.) Counterpoints:

Obviously, it can be difficult to identify the true location of a leak from
the point where fuel appears outside. However, it's pretty clear that
perhaps some of the seepage appears around bottom rivets that are well
inside the tank perimeter. It's hard to fathom how those points, within
perimeter and up slope, could be attributable to poor sealing of the top
skin, even where it crosses interior ribs & stringers.

Another oddity is that although my tanks have been drained as much as
possible (even lifting the wings for final drops) and open for more than 45
days, I still have some persistent light weeping around some of the bottom
rivets in two locations, one near tank center! Hard to believe but true.
That would suggest there are areas where fuel is somehow trapped under the
bottom Pro-Seal such that it can't even evaporate. Also suggests more
reason to redo the whole shebang.

If the original top sealing is usually suspect, being the last item done,
from the top down, would sealing new bottom access holes be any more
reliable?

Is getting a new top skin from MAM a viable option? I'm guessing even if
MAM shipped one, eventually, there could be some anomalies trying to match
with existing holes, and the only real option for a new skin would be to
use the old as template for most of the holes, back marking the rest.

Assuming I cut bottom holes, how should I clean the existing Pro-Seal
inside to prepare it for overcoats? Slosh with [aviation] Simple Green,
well diluted in warm water? Scrub as best possible through the bottom holes
with some light degreasing solution? And/or...?

Ron




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Yes.. patience and lots of forethought into how things go together and need
to be sealed in ADVANCE of slapping the top skin in place. When it's time to
slap the top skin down you should have a complete "bathtub" already with
nowhere that sealer is required other than the seam between the top skin and
the main spar, ribs and rear bulkheads.

The most common leak(s) I've found .. is guys not sealing the rear tank
bulkhead joggle that goes UNDER the wing rib flange when originally sealing
and riveting them in place... and pin holes/slump away in the wing stringer
as it goes outboard into the wing. All these areas need to be addressed and
at least partially cured before sealing/riveting the top skin down.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Farrow" <farrowd@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Cc: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

Is there a way to do it so there are no leaks from new.

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-01-06, at 2:06 PM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

Thanks for input, guys. So far, there's a consensus for going the bottom
route first. (I'm particularly impressed that Ken cut bottom holes in the
original tanks just to assure top sealing.) Counterpoints:

Obviously, it can be difficult to identify the true location of a leak
from
the point where fuel appears outside. However, it's pretty clear that
perhaps some of the seepage appears around bottom rivets that are well
inside the tank perimeter. It's hard to fathom how those points, within
perimeter and up slope, could be attributable to poor sealing of the top
skin, even where it crosses interior ribs & stringers.

Another oddity is that although my tanks have been drained as much as
possible (even lifting the wings for final drops) and open for more than
45
days, I still have some persistent light weeping around some of the
bottom
rivets in two locations, one near tank center! Hard to believe but true.
That would suggest there are areas where fuel is somehow trapped under
the
bottom Pro-Seal such that it can't even evaporate. Also suggests more
reason to redo the whole shebang.

If the original top sealing is usually suspect, being the last item done,
from the top down, would sealing new bottom access holes be any more
reliable?

Is getting a new top skin from MAM a viable option? I'm guessing even if
MAM shipped one, eventually, there could be some anomalies trying to
match
with existing holes, and the only real option for a new skin would be to
use the old as template for most of the holes, back marking the rest.

Assuming I cut bottom holes, how should I clean the existing Pro-Seal
inside to prepare it for overcoats? Slosh with [aviation] Simple Green,
well diluted in warm water? Scrub as best possible through the bottom
holes
with some light degreasing solution? And/or...?

Ron




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..and stringer faces.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

Yes.. patience and lots of forethought into how things go together and
need
to be sealed in ADVANCE of slapping the top skin in place. When it's time
to
slap the top skin down you should have a complete "bathtub" already with
nowhere that sealer is required other than the seam between the top skin
and
the main spar, ribs and rear bulkheads.

The most common leak(s) I've found .. is guys not sealing the rear tank
bulkhead joggle that goes UNDER the wing rib flange when originally
sealing
and riveting them in place... and pin holes/slump away in the wing
stringer
as it goes outboard into the wing. All these areas need to be addressed
and
at least partially cured before sealing/riveting the top skin down.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Farrow" <farrowd@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Cc: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

Is there a way to do it so there are no leaks from new.

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-01-06, at 2:06 PM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

Thanks for input, guys. So far, there's a consensus for going the bottom
route first. (I'm particularly impressed that Ken cut bottom holes in
the
original tanks just to assure top sealing.) Counterpoints:

Obviously, it can be difficult to identify the true location of a leak
from
the point where fuel appears outside. However, it's pretty clear that
perhaps some of the seepage appears around bottom rivets that are well
inside the tank perimeter. It's hard to fathom how those points, within
perimeter and up slope, could be attributable to poor sealing of the top
skin, even where it crosses interior ribs & stringers.

Another oddity is that although my tanks have been drained as much as
possible (even lifting the wings for final drops) and open for more than
45
days, I still have some persistent light weeping around some of the
bottom
rivets in two locations, one near tank center! Hard to believe but true.
That would suggest there are areas where fuel is somehow trapped under
the
bottom Pro-Seal such that it can't even evaporate. Also suggests more
reason to redo the whole shebang.

If the original top sealing is usually suspect, being the last item
done,
from the top down, would sealing new bottom access holes be any more
reliable?

Is getting a new top skin from MAM a viable option? I'm guessing even if
MAM shipped one, eventually, there could be some anomalies trying to
match
with existing holes, and the only real option for a new skin would be to
use the old as template for most of the holes, back marking the rest.

Assuming I cut bottom holes, how should I clean the existing Pro-Seal
inside to prepare it for overcoats? Slosh with [aviation] Simple Green,
well diluted in warm water? Scrub as best possible through the bottom
holes
with some light degreasing solution? And/or...?

Ron




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Another advantage to bottom access is that if it doesn't work (gasp)
then a second attempt is more reasonable. You could to the flush routine
as suggested above and bolt the panels on with a gasket as is frequently
done in other aircraft.

Bob

On 1/6/2012 10:59 AM, Ron Shannon wrote:

Thanks for input, guys. So far, there's a consensus for going the bottom
route first. (I'm particularly impressed that Ken cut bottom holes in the
original tanks just to assure top sealing.) Counterpoints:

Obviously, it can be difficult to identify the true location of a leak from
the point where fuel appears outside. However, it's pretty clear that
perhaps some of the seepage appears around bottom rivets that are well
inside the tank perimeter. It's hard to fathom how those points, within
perimeter and up slope, could be attributable to poor sealing of the top
skin, even where it crosses interior ribs& stringers.

Another oddity is that although my tanks have been drained as much as
possible (even lifting the wings for final drops) and open for more than 45
days, I still have some persistent light weeping around some of the bottom
rivets in two locations, one near tank center! Hard to believe but true.
That would suggest there are areas where fuel is somehow trapped under the
bottom Pro-Seal such that it can't even evaporate. Also suggests more
reason to redo the whole shebang.

If the original top sealing is usually suspect, being the last item done,
from the top down, would sealing new bottom access holes be any more
reliable?

Is getting a new top skin from MAM a viable option? I'm guessing even if
MAM shipped one, eventually, there could be some anomalies trying to match
with existing holes, and the only real option for a new skin would be to
use the old as template for most of the holes, back marking the rest.

Assuming I cut bottom holes, how should I clean the existing Pro-Seal
inside to prepare it for overcoats? Slosh with [aviation] Simple Green,
well diluted in warm water? Scrub as best possible through the bottom holes
with some light degreasing solution? And/or...?

Ron




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Thanks Wayne, Bob, et al. I've been persuaded to stick with the bottom
access ports plan, at least first. Not too worried about the cutting, as I
have lots of tools for metal destruction here and know how to make a mess
with them. Just a lot of work.

Any suggestions for how to clean & prep the existing Pro-Seal for overcoats?

Ron




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Well yes but some of the changes I made were:

1. Use tank skins that are larger than the tank so that the joint of
tank skin to wing skin is entirely outside the sealed tank. Why put an
extra layer of aluminum in the sealed joint and make more leakage paths.
A second benefit of this is that you can build the tank and recoat all
external edges aft of the main spar before riveting the top wing skin on.

2. I cleaned with acetone, then scotchbrited, then cleaned again with
acetone to remove the dust. That is different than my manual specifies.
If the rag is black then keep cleaning. Some guys even soak the rivets
to make sure they don't have any oils on them.

3. As per previous post, re-coat with brushable proseal through a large
oval botttom access hole when building. It is very easy to seal an
access hole on a flat surface.

4. Use a weigh scale when mixing the proseal. My sources said not to
thin proseal. Other sources say it is OK but nevertheless I purchased
the brushable product for recoating purposes.

5. Pull rivets by hand or with minimum air pressure to give the proseal
a chance to squeeze out. The rivets should pull bit tighter if pulled
slowly I think.

6. If required, immediately after pulling all the rivets invert the tank
so proseal tends to spread out and make a natural filet.

On 06/01/2012 2:17 PM, Doug Farrow wrote:

Is there a way to do it so there are no leaks from new.

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Also - use separate clecos that are stored in acetone to
avoid oil causing leaky rivets.

Lots of detailed instructions in the Archives ! Look for
emails from Wayne !!

......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson

De-fenestrate now ! Linux is the answer !

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/pssignTux.jpg



On Friday 06 January 2012 16:10:08 Ken wrote:

Well yes but some of the changes I made were:

1. Use tank skins that are larger than the tank so that the joint of
tank skin to wing skin is entirely outside the sealed tank. Why put an
extra layer of aluminum in the sealed joint and make more leakage paths.
A second benefit of this is that you can build the tank and recoat all
external edges aft of the main spar before riveting the top wing skin on.

2. I cleaned with acetone, then scotchbrited, then cleaned again with
acetone to remove the dust. That is different than my manual specifies.
If the rag is black then keep cleaning. Some guys even soak the rivets
to make sure they don't have any oils on them.

3. As per previous post, re-coat with brushable proseal through a large
oval botttom access hole when building. It is very easy to seal an
access hole on a flat surface.

4. Use a weigh scale when mixing the proseal. My sources said not to
thin proseal. Other sources say it is OK but nevertheless I purchased
the brushable product for recoating purposes.

5. Pull rivets by hand or with minimum air pressure to give the proseal
a chance to squeeze out. The rivets should pull bit tighter if pulled
slowly I think.

6. If required, immediately after pulling all the rivets invert the tank
so proseal tends to spread out and make a natural filet.

On 06/01/2012 2:17 PM, Doug Farrow wrote:

Is there a way to do it so there are no leaks from new.

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Wayne, I'm shortly going to tackle sealing a wing tank for the first time on a new Moose wing. I would certainly appreciate your thoughts on the best sequence of steps to get this done right the first time.

Thanks much.

Ray Watson
FlyPegasus628@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: rebel-builders <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 6, 2012 1:04 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal


Yes.. patience and lots of forethought into how things go together and need
o be sealed in ADVANCE of slapping the top skin in place. When it's time to
lap the top skin down you should have a complete "bathtub" already with
owhere that sealer is required other than the seam between the top skin and
he main spar, ribs and rear bulkheads.
The most common leak(s) I've found .. is guys not sealing the rear tank
ulkhead joggle that goes UNDER the wing rib flange when originally sealing
nd riveting them in place... and pin holes/slump away in the wing stringer
s it goes outboard into the wing. All these areas need to be addressed and
t least partially cured before sealing/riveting the top skin down.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Doug Farrow" <farrowd@hotmail.com>
o: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
c: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
ent: Friday, January 06, 2012 2:17 PM
ubject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

Is there a way to do it so there are no leaks from new.

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-01-06, at 2:06 PM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

Thanks for input, guys. So far, there's a consensus for going the bottom
route first. (I'm particularly impressed that Ken cut bottom holes in the
original tanks just to assure top sealing.) Counterpoints:

Obviously, it can be difficult to identify the true location of a leak
from
the point where fuel appears outside. However, it's pretty clear that
perhaps some of the seepage appears around bottom rivets that are well
inside the tank perimeter. It's hard to fathom how those points, within
perimeter and up slope, could be attributable to poor sealing of the top
skin, even where it crosses interior ribs & stringers.

Another oddity is that although my tanks have been drained as much as
possible (even lifting the wings for final drops) and open for more than
45
days, I still have some persistent light weeping around some of the
bottom
rivets in two locations, one near tank center! Hard to believe but true.
That would suggest there are areas where fuel is somehow trapped under
the
bottom Pro-Seal such that it can't even evaporate. Also suggests more
reason to redo the whole shebang.

If the original top sealing is usually suspect, being the last item done,
from the top down, would sealing new bottom access holes be any more
reliable?

Is getting a new top skin from MAM a viable option? I'm guessing even if
MAM shipped one, eventually, there could be some anomalies trying to
match
with existing holes, and the only real option for a new skin would be to
use the old as template for most of the holes, back marking the rest.

Assuming I cut bottom holes, how should I clean the existing Pro-Seal
inside to prepare it for overcoats? Slosh with [aviation] Simple Green,
well diluted in warm water? Scrub as best possible through the bottom
holes
with some light degreasing solution? And/or...?

Ron




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Hi Ron !

You can clean up with acetone ....

ProSeal make a coating/cleaner specifically for use before
adding another coat - can't remember the name, but it's
something like 'adhesion improver' ... Just brush it on
right before adding a coat.

I would use regular ProSeal if it's a hole, otherwise,
the 'brushable' (thinner) version is good.

<I> would NOT dilute ProSeal !

Could it be that you just have leaky rivets ?? If so,
just drill them out, coat a new one with ProSeal,
& pop it in !! Lots of PS on the end will likely hold
& trap the inside end of the old rivet...


......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson

De-fenestrate now ! Linux is the answer !

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/pssignTux.jpg



On Friday 06 January 2012 15:44:43 Ron Shannon wrote:

Thanks Wayne, Bob, et al. I've been persuaded to stick with the bottom
access ports plan, at least first. Not too worried about the cutting, as I
have lots of tools for metal destruction here and know how to make a mess
with them. Just a lot of work.

Any suggestions for how to clean & prep the existing Pro-Seal for
overcoats?

Ron




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Many here wouldn't agree with my steps...... that on the SR2500/3500 started
with sealing and riveting the lower access covers and rings to the bottom
skins!.. followed by sealing and riveting the stringers to the top skin.

Sorry, but no way I'm gonna put that entire process to words here. I'll dig
up a picture file maybe and send it to you direct if I get a moment.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <flypegasus628@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

Wayne, I'm shortly going to tackle sealing a wing tank for the first time
on a new Moose wing. I would certainly appreciate your thoughts on the
best sequence of steps to get this done right the first time.

Thanks much.

Ray Watson
FlyPegasus628@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: rebel-builders <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 6, 2012 1:04 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal


Yes.. patience and lots of forethought into how things go together and
need
o be sealed in ADVANCE of slapping the top skin in place. When it's time
to
lap the top skin down you should have a complete "bathtub" already with
owhere that sealer is required other than the seam between the top skin
and
he main spar, ribs and rear bulkheads.
The most common leak(s) I've found .. is guys not sealing the rear tank
ulkhead joggle that goes UNDER the wing rib flange when originally sealing
nd riveting them in place... and pin holes/slump away in the wing stringer
s it goes outboard into the wing. All these areas need to be addressed and
t least partially cured before sealing/riveting the top skin down.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Doug Farrow" <farrowd@hotmail.com>
o: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
c: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
ent: Friday, January 06, 2012 2:17 PM
ubject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

Is there a way to do it so there are no leaks from new.

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-01-06, at 2:06 PM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

Thanks for input, guys. So far, there's a consensus for going the bottom
route first. (I'm particularly impressed that Ken cut bottom holes in the
original tanks just to assure top sealing.) Counterpoints:

Obviously, it can be difficult to identify the true location of a leak
from
the point where fuel appears outside. However, it's pretty clear that
perhaps some of the seepage appears around bottom rivets that are well
inside the tank perimeter. It's hard to fathom how those points, within
perimeter and up slope, could be attributable to poor sealing of the top
skin, even where it crosses interior ribs & stringers.

Another oddity is that although my tanks have been drained as much as
possible (even lifting the wings for final drops) and open for more than
45
days, I still have some persistent light weeping around some of the
bottom
rivets in two locations, one near tank center! Hard to believe but true.
That would suggest there are areas where fuel is somehow trapped under
the
bottom Pro-Seal such that it can't even evaporate. Also suggests more
reason to redo the whole shebang.

If the original top sealing is usually suspect, being the last item done,
from the top down, would sealing new bottom access holes be any more
reliable?

Is getting a new top skin from MAM a viable option? I'm guessing even if
MAM shipped one, eventually, there could be some anomalies trying to
match
with existing holes, and the only real option for a new skin would be to
use the old as template for most of the holes, back marking the rest.

Assuming I cut bottom holes, how should I clean the existing Pro-Seal
inside to prepare it for overcoats? Slosh with [aviation] Simple Green,
well diluted in warm water? Scrub as best possible through the bottom
holes
with some light degreasing solution? And/or...?

Ron




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Thank you Wayne, I'm sure there's much to it and would appreciate being pointed in the right direction.


Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: rebel-builders <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 6, 2012 3:22 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal


Many here wouldn't agree with my steps...... that on the SR2500/3500 started
ith sealing and riveting the lower access covers and rings to the bottom
kins!.. followed by sealing and riveting the stringers to the top skin.
Sorry, but no way I'm gonna put that entire process to words here. I'll dig
p a picture file maybe and send it to you direct if I get a moment.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
rom: <flypegasus628@aol.com>
o: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
ent: Friday, January 06, 2012 4:54 PM
ubject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal


Wayne, I'm shortly going to tackle sealing a wing tank for the first time
on a new Moose wing. I would certainly appreciate your thoughts on the
best sequence of steps to get this done right the first time.

Thanks much.

Ray Watson
FlyPegasus628@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: rebel-builders <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 6, 2012 1:04 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal


Yes.. patience and lots of forethought into how things go together and
need
o be sealed in ADVANCE of slapping the top skin in place. When it's time
to
lap the top skin down you should have a complete "bathtub" already with
owhere that sealer is required other than the seam between the top skin
and
he main spar, ribs and rear bulkheads.
The most common leak(s) I've found .. is guys not sealing the rear tank
ulkhead joggle that goes UNDER the wing rib flange when originally sealing
nd riveting them in place... and pin holes/slump away in the wing stringer
s it goes outboard into the wing. All these areas need to be addressed and
t least partially cured before sealing/riveting the top skin down.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Doug Farrow" <farrowd@hotmail.com>
o: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
c: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
ent: Friday, January 06, 2012 2:17 PM
ubject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

Is there a way to do it so there are no leaks from new.

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-01-06, at 2:06 PM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

Thanks for input, guys. So far, there's a consensus for going the bottom
route first. (I'm particularly impressed that Ken cut bottom holes in the
original tanks just to assure top sealing.) Counterpoints:

Obviously, it can be difficult to identify the true location of a leak
from
the point where fuel appears outside. However, it's pretty clear that
perhaps some of the seepage appears around bottom rivets that are well
inside the tank perimeter. It's hard to fathom how those points, within
perimeter and up slope, could be attributable to poor sealing of the top
skin, even where it crosses interior ribs & stringers.

Another oddity is that although my tanks have been drained as much as
possible (even lifting the wings for final drops) and open for more than
45
days, I still have some persistent light weeping around some of the
bottom
rivets in two locations, one near tank center! Hard to believe but true.
That would suggest there are areas where fuel is somehow trapped under
the
bottom Pro-Seal such that it can't even evaporate. Also suggests more
reason to redo the whole shebang.

If the original top sealing is usually suspect, being the last item done,
from the top down, would sealing new bottom access holes be any more
reliable?

Is getting a new top skin from MAM a viable option? I'm guessing even if
MAM shipped one, eventually, there could be some anomalies trying to
match
with existing holes, and the only real option for a new skin would be to
use the old as template for most of the holes, back marking the rest.

Assuming I cut bottom holes, how should I clean the existing Pro-Seal
inside to prepare it for overcoats? Slosh with [aviation] Simple Green,
well diluted in warm water? Scrub as best possible through the bottom
holes
with some light degreasing solution? And/or...?

Ron




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I'm also ready to seal up my first tank on the Super Rebel next week and am
always interested in other's best practices.
Thanks,

Jerry Folkerts
SR #093
www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
flypegasus628@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 3:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal


Wayne, I'm shortly going to tackle sealing a wing tank for the first time on
a new Moose wing. I would certainly appreciate your thoughts on the best
sequence of steps to get this done right the first time.

Thanks much.

Ray Watson
FlyPegasus628@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: rebel-builders <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 6, 2012 1:04 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal


Yes.. patience and lots of forethought into how things go together and need
o be sealed in ADVANCE of slapping the top skin in place. When it's time to
lap the top skin down you should have a complete "bathtub" already with
owhere that sealer is required other than the seam between the top skin and
he main spar, ribs and rear bulkheads.
The most common leak(s) I've found .. is guys not sealing the rear tank
ulkhead joggle that goes UNDER the wing rib flange when originally sealing
nd riveting them in place... and pin holes/slump away in the wing stringer
s it goes outboard into the wing. All these areas need to be addressed and
t least partially cured before sealing/riveting the top skin down.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Doug Farrow" <farrowd@hotmail.com>
o: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
c: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
ent: Friday, January 06, 2012 2:17 PM
ubject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

Is there a way to do it so there are no leaks from new.

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-01-06, at 2:06 PM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

Thanks for input, guys. So far, there's a consensus for going the bottom
route first. (I'm particularly impressed that Ken cut bottom holes in the
original tanks just to assure top sealing.) Counterpoints:

Obviously, it can be difficult to identify the true location of a leak
from
the point where fuel appears outside. However, it's pretty clear that
perhaps some of the seepage appears around bottom rivets that are well
inside the tank perimeter. It's hard to fathom how those points, within
perimeter and up slope, could be attributable to poor sealing of the top
skin, even where it crosses interior ribs & stringers.

Another oddity is that although my tanks have been drained as much as
possible (even lifting the wings for final drops) and open for more than
45
days, I still have some persistent light weeping around some of the
bottom
rivets in two locations, one near tank center! Hard to believe but true.
That would suggest there are areas where fuel is somehow trapped under
the
bottom Pro-Seal such that it can't even evaporate. Also suggests more
reason to redo the whole shebang.

If the original top sealing is usually suspect, being the last item done,
from the top down, would sealing new bottom access holes be any more
reliable?

Is getting a new top skin from MAM a viable option? I'm guessing even if
MAM shipped one, eventually, there could be some anomalies trying to
match
with existing holes, and the only real option for a new skin would be to
use the old as template for most of the holes, back marking the rest.

Assuming I cut bottom holes, how should I clean the existing Pro-Seal
inside to prepare it for overcoats? Slosh with [aviation] Simple Green,
well diluted in warm water? Scrub as best possible through the bottom
holes
with some light degreasing solution? And/or...?

Ron




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I know it's against the manual but as I talked with Ron last night about
his tank project I noticed/remembered that I installed my top wing skin
over the tank skin instead of under it. As I recall it was just too
difficult for us to get it uniformly positioned on the two sides it
meets the top skin. I hope there isn't some good reason why I shouldn't
have done it that way. And now I'm wondering if it's easier to get a
top tank skin seal with it touching everything directly instead of
thrying to hold the top skin AND seal. It would look better under the
tank skin. CW


On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 10:59 AM , Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Yes.. patience and lots of forethought into how things go together and
need to be sealed in ADVANCE of slapping the top skin in place. When
it's time to slap the top skin down you should have a complete
"bathtub" already with nowhere that sealer is required other than the
seam between the top skin and the main spar, ribs and rear bulkheads.

The most common leak(s) I've found .. is guys not sealing the rear
tank bulkhead joggle that goes UNDER the wing rib flange when
originally sealing and riveting them in place... and pin holes/slump
away in the wing stringer as it goes outboard into the wing. All these
areas need to be addressed and at least partially cured before
sealing/riveting the top skin down.

Wayne

----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Farrow" <farrowd@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Cc: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin
removal

Is there a way to do it so there are no leaks from new.

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-01-06, at 2:06 PM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
wrote:

Thanks for input, guys. So far, there's a consensus for going the
bottom
route first. (I'm particularly impressed that Ken cut bottom holes
in the
original tanks just to assure top sealing.) Counterpoints:

Obviously, it can be difficult to identify the true location of a
leak from
the point where fuel appears outside. However, it's pretty clear
that
perhaps some of the seepage appears around bottom rivets that are
well
inside the tank perimeter. It's hard to fathom how those points,
within
perimeter and up slope, could be attributable to poor sealing of the
top
skin, even where it crosses interior ribs & stringers.

Another oddity is that although my tanks have been drained as much
as
possible (even lifting the wings for final drops) and open for more
than 45
days, I still have some persistent light weeping around some of the
bottom
rivets in two locations, one near tank center! Hard to believe but
true.
That would suggest there are areas where fuel is somehow trapped
under the
bottom Pro-Seal such that it can't even evaporate. Also suggests
more
reason to redo the whole shebang.

If the original top sealing is usually suspect, being the last item
done,
from the top down, would sealing new bottom access holes be any more
reliable?

Is getting a new top skin from MAM a viable option? I'm guessing
even if
MAM shipped one, eventually, there could be some anomalies trying to
match
with existing holes, and the only real option for a new skin would
be to
use the old as template for most of the holes, back marking the
rest.

Assuming I cut bottom holes, how should I clean the existing
Pro-Seal
inside to prepare it for overcoats? Slosh with [aviation] Simple
Green,
well diluted in warm water? Scrub as best possible through the
bottom holes
with some light degreasing solution? And/or...?

Ron




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