The Murphy Builders Site

Hi John: I've heard of Reiff heaters (Reiff preheat systems, or
reiffpreheat.com) which mainly heat electrictly the base of the cylinders,
individually, and have thermostatic control to avoid those unwanted
surprises of overheated engines. They also have oil pan heaters. I have in
my engine to keep it warm and avoid humidity inside the engine (24/7), and I
live in a humid warm area. Regards, Eduardo


El 02/12/11 16:45, "John R. Davidson" <skidaddy20000@hotmail.com> escribi

John.. I throw an old patch work quilt that my mother made over the nose and
tuck the ends behind a prop blade, which I guess I can't do this year now
that I've switched to the 2 blade prince from the 3 blade warp.. so a couple
of spring clamps to hold it shut now I guess at the nose. 900w car interior
heater stuffed up into one side of the air exit on the cowling and plug it
in for about 2 hours. At -30C the cylinders are hot to the touch after that
time period.

If you are going to fly regularily on Saturdays... no issues with a 7 day
timer plugged in and the heater on it for about 4 hours prior to planned
arrival. It's what Tim's been doing with his Pegastol for the last 7 or 8
years so it's ready to go on Saturday am's before his gals got up ready to
ski at Georgian Peaks.

(PS.. I don't like cooking oil...... unless it's an old D5 dozer and it
needs to move!)

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "John R. Davidson" <skidaddy20000@hotmail.com>
To: "Rebel List" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 3:45 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hello All,

I am planning to do some winter flying this year and am looking for some
advice and guidelines on preheating the engine, an O-320 in my case.
The Rebel lives in a fully enclosed, unheated hangar, with electricity.
The plane has a Tannis type sump heater.

1) At what outside temperature do you consider pre-heating desirable,
mandatory?

2) Is it necessary, advisable, a waste of time to have a hot air blower
circulating air over the cylynders? I've seen some propane powered, some
electric powered.
One of my ultra-light friends uses an electric paint stripping gun to
preheat his engine. I keep telling him its a snowmobile engine, and likes
the cold, but to no avail.

3) I'm not likely to spring for custom insulated cowl covers, but is
there any point in wrapping an old sleeping-bag around the cowls while
warming?

4) Would it be unwise to put the Tannis on a programmable timer set to
come on a couple of hours before I expect to arrive next time? Don't want
to arrive to a pile of ashes and cinders.

5) Are there any other thoughts, ideas, considerations to make this
project safer, more convenient, more comfortable?

Thanks for your suggestions.

John



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Hello all, I have followed the forms for a while now but have never got in
on the discussions..... I cant help myself this time. I have also often
wondered if it would be a good idea to leave a little heat on under the cowl
through the winter. I suspect if the cowl was well bundled up it would not
take very much power (even 50 to 100 watts) would make a big temperature
differential between outside the cowl and inside on a -40 degree centigrade
night especially inside a good hangar. The effects of this heat would even
migrate into the cabin and some of those expensive instruments (especially
glass panels) would benefit even if they were only 5 degrees warmer than
outside. Most of all the wife might not even notice the cost of the 50 or
100 watts on the electricity bill (how many 100 watt light bulbs burn all
evening in the house ??)

However the internet brings out all opinions and I am tore as to whether
this would promote or lessen corrosion.

My brain argues with itself as follows.....

a) I have an enclosed cargo trailer and as soon as I put any heat in it ice
instantly forms on the walls and roof and as long as the heat is there it
"sweats" inside ...... I don't want this to happen in my engine
b) In central Canada typically the humidity goes down in the winter with the
cold anyway so is it even worth the effort.
c) Cold air holds less water than warm air so if the inside of the cowl is
warm could there potentially be more water there now to eventually condense
inside the engine and cause rust
d) Perhaps the heating element would "dry out" the air inside the cowl and
eliminate the humidity which is required for corrosion???

I have heard that while reiff style heaters work well they do cause sweating
inside the engine as is the case with my trailer and should only be used if
you plan on flying soon .....

This is just my rambling and I am no expert. I would love to get all other
points of view. I am very tempted to bundle the cowling up real tight and
put some heat inside possibly on a thermostat that keeps the temperature
around +2 Celsius. Also note that due to our situation we don't plan on
much winter flying so we are essentially storing the airplane for the
winter.




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa
Sent: December-02-11 3:14 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hi John: I've heard of Reiff heaters (Reiff preheat systems, or
reiffpreheat.com) which mainly heat electrictly the base of the cylinders,
individually, and have thermostatic control to avoid those unwanted
surprises of overheated engines. They also have oil pan heaters. I have in
my engine to keep it warm and avoid humidity inside the engine (24/7), and I
live in a humid warm area. Regards, Eduardo


El 02/12/11 16:45, "John R. Davidson" <skidaddy20000@hotmail.com> escribi

I don't like the cylinder heater bands or oil pan heaters myself Dan... they
do exactly what you're saying. They heat one part of the engine and create a
circulating humidifier via the cold surfaces and cause things to rust. This
is why I like to heat it all with the air blowing heater, as a mass, from
circulating air around the engine and letting it heat up as one big blob of
metal. I've had no issues with doing this for the last 20 years of aircraft
ownership and I had all my cylinders pulled off last fall for a cracked
valve/guide issues and there was absolutely NO rust or corrosion internally
in my engine. Cam and lifters (which is always the down side of a Lycoming)
looked like brand new. I'll stick with what I'm doing 'till I'm below the
grass!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Cook" <dan.cook@meridiansurveys.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying


[quote]Hello all, I have followed the forms for a while now but have never got in
on the discussions..... I cant help myself this time. I have also often
wondered if it would be a good idea to leave a little heat on under the
cowl
through the winter. I suspect if the cowl was well bundled up it would
not
take very much power (even 50 to 100 watts) would make a big temperature
differential between outside the cowl and inside on a -40 degree
centigrade
night especially inside a good hangar. The effects of this heat would
even
migrate into the cabin and some of those expensive instruments (especially
glass panels) would benefit even if they were only 5 degrees warmer than
outside. Most of all the wife might not even notice the cost of the 50 or
100 watts on the electricity bill (how many 100 watt light bulbs burn all
evening in the house ??)

However the internet brings out all opinions and I am tore as to whether
this would promote or lessen corrosion.

My brain argues with itself as follows.....

a) I have an enclosed cargo trailer and as soon as I put any heat in it
ice
instantly forms on the walls and roof and as long as the heat is there it
"sweats" inside ...... I don't want this to happen in my engine
b) In central Canada typically the humidity goes down in the winter with
the
cold anyway so is it even worth the effort.
c) Cold air holds less water than warm air so if the inside of the cowl is
warm could there potentially be more water there now to eventually
condense
inside the engine and cause rust
d) Perhaps the heating element would "dry out" the air inside the cowl
and
eliminate the humidity which is required for corrosion???

I have heard that while reiff style heaters work well they do cause
sweating
inside the engine as is the case with my trailer and should only be used
if
you plan on flying soon .....

This is just my rambling and I am no expert. I would love to get all
other
points of view. I am very tempted to bundle the cowling up real tight and
put some heat inside possibly on a thermostat that keeps the temperature
around +2 Celsius. Also note that due to our situation we don't plan on
much winter flying so we are essentially storing the airplane for the
winter.




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa
Sent: December-02-11 3:14 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hi John: I've heard of Reiff heaters (Reiff preheat systems, or
reiffpreheat.com) which mainly heat electrictly the base of the cylinders,
individually, and have thermostatic control to avoid those unwanted
surprises of overheated engines. They also have oil pan heaters. I have in
my engine to keep it warm and avoid humidity inside the engine (24/7), and
I
live in a humid warm area. Regards, Eduardo


El 02/12/11 16:45, "John R. Davidson" <skidaddy20000@hotmail.com>
escribi

I think you might get more rust happening at +2 C, than if the temp is well
below freezing. I have been using a glue on heater pad on the sump from
Canadian tire, a heat gun carefully directed up the cowl, and a car heater in the
cabin for the instruments, and foam plugs in the inlets to hold the heat in. I run
a small generator for a couple of hours and everything is warm on start up.
And I like to partially duct tape off the oil heater, depending on the upper air
temp, to get the temps high enough to boil off any condensation in the engine.
It's worked well so far, but i don't fly if its colder than -15 C.
Allen H.
On 12/2/2011 1:23 PM, dan.cook@meridiansurveys.ca wrote to rebel-builders:





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Hi Dan

My two cents worth - Don't Heat the engine. Corrosion needs two things to occur. Oxygen and moisture. By heating, you will liberate moisture from the air and therefore increase the amount of corrosion. Unless you heat the engine enough to get all the parts above the dew point of the air (and keep it there), don't do it.

Only preheat if you are going flying. Also - Don't run your engine in the winter for a couple of minutes as some people like to do. You'll just ingest more moisture and not get the engine warm enough to burn it off.

Tom


[quote]From: dan.cook@meridiansurveys.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 16:23:57 -0600

Hello all, I have followed the forms for a while now but have never got in
on the discussions..... I cant help myself this time. I have also often
wondered if it would be a good idea to leave a little heat on under the cowl
through the winter. I suspect if the cowl was well bundled up it would not
take very much power (even 50 to 100 watts) would make a big temperature
differential between outside the cowl and inside on a -40 degree centigrade
night especially inside a good hangar. The effects of this heat would even
migrate into the cabin and some of those expensive instruments (especially
glass panels) would benefit even if they were only 5 degrees warmer than
outside. Most of all the wife might not even notice the cost of the 50 or
100 watts on the electricity bill (how many 100 watt light bulbs burn all
evening in the house ??)

However the internet brings out all opinions and I am tore as to whether
this would promote or lessen corrosion.

My brain argues with itself as follows.....

a) I have an enclosed cargo trailer and as soon as I put any heat in it ice
instantly forms on the walls and roof and as long as the heat is there it
"sweats" inside ...... I don't want this to happen in my engine
b) In central Canada typically the humidity goes down in the winter with the
cold anyway so is it even worth the effort.
c) Cold air holds less water than warm air so if the inside of the cowl is
warm could there potentially be more water there now to eventually condense
inside the engine and cause rust
d) Perhaps the heating element would "dry out" the air inside the cowl and
eliminate the humidity which is required for corrosion???

I have heard that while reiff style heaters work well they do cause sweating
inside the engine as is the case with my trailer and should only be used if
you plan on flying soon .....

This is just my rambling and I am no expert. I would love to get all other
points of view. I am very tempted to bundle the cowling up real tight and
put some heat inside possibly on a thermostat that keeps the temperature
around +2 Celsius. Also note that due to our situation we don't plan on
much winter flying so we are essentially storing the airplane for the
winter.




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa
Sent: December-02-11 3:14 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hi John: I've heard of Reiff heaters (Reiff preheat systems, or
reiffpreheat.com) which mainly heat electrictly the base of the cylinders,
individually, and have thermostatic control to avoid those unwanted
surprises of overheated engines. They also have oil pan heaters. I have in
my engine to keep it warm and avoid humidity inside the engine (24/7), and I
live in a humid warm area. Regards, Eduardo


El 02/12/11 16:45, "John R. Davidson" <skidaddy20000@hotmail.com> escribi

Hi John !

Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents ...

I would definitely ONLY pre-heat just before flying - keeping it
heated overnight every night will definitely increase condensation
and corrosion !

I'm with Wayne though - I like gentle hot air for warming ...
Seen many nice rigs using 900 - 1500 Watt electric heaters with
blowers -- set ON THE FLOOR, with a piece of flex pipe (metal
drier vent works ...) stuffed into the bottom rear of the cowl.
By all means, drape an old sleeping bag over it.

You could put it on a timer - maybe 2 hours before you
want to fly .... IF you trust timers ! I might want to go there,
set everything up, turn it on, and hide in a warm spot for a coffee ...

One thing I always recommend - buy a can of AvLube and toss
it in the oil RIGHT BEFORE FLYING for at least an hour. It evaporates
partially otherwise .... This is great stuff - it penetrates into the
pores of the metal & protects the cam & followers for a whole
winter. Ask Mikey .... ex-Leavens engine guru !

I always had to tape over almost all of the oil cooler, to get
decent temps - ideally, you want over 212 Frankenstein on the
long climbs, to boil out the water ! That's why you should never
just run for a few minutes in winter - does more harm !


......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson

De-fenestrate now ! Linux is the answer !

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/pssignTux.jpg



On Friday 02 December 2011 15:45:49 John R. Davidson wrote:

Hello All,

I am planning to do some winter flying this year and am looking for some
advice and guidelines on preheating the engine, an O-320 in my case. The
Rebel lives in a fully enclosed, unheated hangar, with electricity. The
plane has a Tannis type sump heater.

1) At what outside temperature do you consider pre-heating desirable,
mandatory?

2) Is it necessary, advisable, a waste of time to have a hot air blower
circulating air over the cylynders? I've seen some propane powered, some
electric powered. One of my ultra-light friends uses an electric paint
stripping gun to preheat his engine. I keep telling him its a snowmobile
engine, and likes the cold, but to no avail.

3) I'm not likely to spring for custom insulated cowl covers, but is there
any point in wrapping an old sleeping-bag around the cowls while warming?

4) Would it be unwise to put the Tannis on a programmable timer set to come
on a couple of hours before I expect to arrive next time? Don't want to
arrive to a pile of ashes and cinders.

5) Are there any other thoughts, ideas, considerations to make this
project safer, more convenient, more comfortable?

Thanks for your suggestions.

John

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Hi Dan,
I dont very often disagree with Wayne ( or dare to! :) ) but I have been the maintainance manager for a flying club for the last 10 years and involved with the club for much more than that.
We keep the aircraft heat sytems plugged in all winter. NO on and off. Thats what makes the moisture pump. We also keep a small electric heater in the cabin that keeps the inside of the cabin at about 50 f.
We just o'hauled an 0-360 in our C-172 that had 3100hrs on the bottom end. The rebuilder stated that it looked better than most of the ones he does at TBO. The cam was within specs to use again as were the lifters and crank. Minor case fretting was the only surprise.
The key is the aircraft get flown! Between 150 and 250 hrs per year.
We use the Reiff system, and the bands really do help heat soak the entire engine. We also keep a couple of old sleeping bags tossed over the cowl and the thermostat in the systems stop any coking of the oil.
I go by a basic rule for my Rebel and Long-ez. Once its plugged in it stays plugged in until its flown. I try to fly at least twice a month, long enough to get the engine oil temp up to normal ops, about 185 deg.
I did see an 800hr engine that the rebuilder could barely get apart due to rust and corrosion. That owner had a timer on his preheater that would turn the heat on daily for about 4hrs, then turn off. He only flew about 50 hrs a year. The rebuild had been done about 5 yrs prior. The entire engine was unusable, it just got tossed.
In the end I guess the best rule of thumb is to keep the temps constant, either with a well insulated cowl and light bulb or a pre heat system that heat soaks the entire engine, not just the outside.
IMHO
Curt Martin
N97MR


-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: rebel-builders <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:47 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying


I don't like the cylinder heater bands or oil pan heaters myself Dan... they
o exactly what you're saying. They heat one part of the engine and create a
irculating humidifier via the cold surfaces and cause things to rust. This
s why I like to heat it all with the air blowing heater, as a mass, from
irculating air around the engine and letting it heat up as one big blob of
etal. I've had no issues with doing this for the last 20 years of aircraft
wnership and I had all my cylinders pulled off last fall for a cracked
alve/guide issues and there was absolutely NO rust or corrosion internally
n my engine. Cam and lifters (which is always the down side of a Lycoming)
ooked like brand new. I'll stick with what I'm doing 'till I'm below the
rass!
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Dan Cook" <dan.cook@meridiansurveys.ca>
o: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
ent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:23 PM
ubject: RE: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hello all, I have followed the forms for a while now but have never got in
on the discussions..... I cant help myself this time. I have also often
wondered if it would be a good idea to leave a little heat on under the
cowl
through the winter. I suspect if the cowl was well bundled up it would
not
take very much power (even 50 to 100 watts) would make a big temperature
differential between outside the cowl and inside on a -40 degree
centigrade
night especially inside a good hangar. The effects of this heat would
even
migrate into the cabin and some of those expensive instruments (especially
glass panels) would benefit even if they were only 5 degrees warmer than
outside. Most of all the wife might not even notice the cost of the 50 or
100 watts on the electricity bill (how many 100 watt light bulbs burn all
evening in the house ??)

However the internet brings out all opinions and I am tore as to whether
this would promote or lessen corrosion.

My brain argues with itself as follows.....

a) I have an enclosed cargo trailer and as soon as I put any heat in it
ice
instantly forms on the walls and roof and as long as the heat is there it
"sweats" inside ...... I don't want this to happen in my engine
b) In central Canada typically the humidity goes down in the winter with
the
cold anyway so is it even worth the effort.
c) Cold air holds less water than warm air so if the inside of the cowl is
warm could there potentially be more water there now to eventually
condense
inside the engine and cause rust
d) Perhaps the heating element would "dry out" the air inside the cowl
and
eliminate the humidity which is required for corrosion???

I have heard that while reiff style heaters work well they do cause
sweating
inside the engine as is the case with my trailer and should only be used
if
you plan on flying soon .....

This is just my rambling and I am no expert. I would love to get all
other
points of view. I am very tempted to bundle the cowling up real tight and
put some heat inside possibly on a thermostat that keeps the temperature
around +2 Celsius. Also note that due to our situation we don't plan on
much winter flying so we are essentially storing the airplane for the
winter.




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa
Sent: December-02-11 3:14 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hi John: I've heard of Reiff heaters (Reiff preheat systems, or
reiffpreheat.com) which mainly heat electrictly the base of the cylinders,
individually, and have thermostatic control to avoid those unwanted
surprises of overheated engines. They also have oil pan heaters. I have in
my engine to keep it warm and avoid humidity inside the engine (24/7), and
I
live in a humid warm area. Regards, Eduardo


El 02/12/11 16:45, "John R. Davidson" <skidaddy20000@hotmail.com>
escribi�:

Hello All,

I am planning to do some winter flying this year and am looking for
some advice and guidelines on preheating the engine, an O-320 in my case.
The Rebel lives in a fully enclosed, unheated hangar, with
electricity. The plane has a Tannis type sump heater.

1) At what outside temperature do you consider pre-heating desirable,
mandatory?

2) Is it necessary, advisable, a waste of time to have a hot air
blower circulating air over the cylynders? I've seen some propane
powered, some electric powered.
One of my ultra-light friends uses an electric paint stripping gun to
preheat his engine. I keep telling him its a snowmobile engine, and
likes the cold, but to no avail.

3) I'm not likely to spring for custom insulated cowl covers, but is
there any point in wrapping an old sleeping-bag around the cowls while

warming?

4) Would it be unwise to put the Tannis on a programmable timer set to
come on a couple of hours before I expect to arrive next time? Don't
want to arrive to a pile of ashes and cinders.

5) Are there any other thoughts, ideas, considerations to make this
project safer, more convenient, more comfortable?

Thanks for your suggestions.

John



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You're not disagreeing with me Curt... as I stated in the first reply I
made..

IF< you are going to fly regularily on Saturdays... no issues with a 7 day

timer plugged in and the heater on it for about 4 hours prior to planned
arrival.

If you're not gonna fly... you're just creating a problem when everything
condenses at heater shut down if you don't fly. Mind you this also happens
when you shut down after the two hour flight and tuck her away, but at least
you slung oil on everything and hopefully ran hot enough to boil any
moisture out of the engine.

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebflyer@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hi Dan,
I dont very often disagree with Wayne ( or dare to! :) ) but I have been
the maintainance manager for a flying club for the last 10 years and
involved with the club for much more than that.
We keep the aircraft heat sytems plugged in all winter. NO on and off.
Thats what makes the moisture pump. We also keep a small electric heater
in the cabin that keeps the inside of the cabin at about 50 f.
We just o'hauled an 0-360 in our C-172 that had 3100hrs on the bottom
end. The rebuilder stated that it looked better than most of the ones he
does at TBO. The cam was within specs to use again as were the lifters and
crank. Minor case fretting was the only surprise.
The key is the aircraft get flown! Between 150 and 250 hrs per year.
We use the Reiff system, and the bands really do help heat soak the
entire engine. We also keep a couple of old sleeping bags tossed over the
cowl and the thermostat in the systems stop any coking of the oil.
I go by a basic rule for my Rebel and Long-ez. Once its plugged in it
stays plugged in until its flown. I try to fly at least twice a month,
long enough to get the engine oil temp up to normal ops, about 185 deg.
I did see an 800hr engine that the rebuilder could barely get apart due to
rust and corrosion. That owner had a timer on his preheater that would
turn the heat on daily for about 4hrs, then turn off. He only flew about
50 hrs a year. The rebuild had been done about 5 yrs prior. The entire
engine was unusable, it just got tossed.
In the end I guess the best rule of thumb is to keep the temps constant,
either with a well insulated cowl and light bulb or a pre heat system that
heat soaks the entire engine, not just the outside.
IMHO
Curt Martin
N97MR


-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: rebel-builders <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:47 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying


I don't like the cylinder heater bands or oil pan heaters myself Dan...
they
o exactly what you're saying. They heat one part of the engine and create
a
irculating humidifier via the cold surfaces and cause things to rust. This
s why I like to heat it all with the air blowing heater, as a mass, from
irculating air around the engine and letting it heat up as one big blob of
etal. I've had no issues with doing this for the last 20 years of aircraft
wnership and I had all my cylinders pulled off last fall for a cracked
alve/guide issues and there was absolutely NO rust or corrosion internally
n my engine. Cam and lifters (which is always the down side of a Lycoming)
ooked like brand new. I'll stick with what I'm doing 'till I'm below the
rass!
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Dan Cook" <dan.cook@meridiansurveys.ca>
o: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
ent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:23 PM
ubject: RE: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hello all, I have followed the forms for a while now but have never got in
on the discussions..... I cant help myself this time. I have also often
wondered if it would be a good idea to leave a little heat on under the
cowl
through the winter. I suspect if the cowl was well bundled up it would
not
take very much power (even 50 to 100 watts) would make a big temperature
differential between outside the cowl and inside on a -40 degree
centigrade
night especially inside a good hangar. The effects of this heat would
even
migrate into the cabin and some of those expensive instruments (especially
glass panels) would benefit even if they were only 5 degrees warmer than
outside. Most of all the wife might not even notice the cost of the 50 or
100 watts on the electricity bill (how many 100 watt light bulbs burn all
evening in the house ??)

However the internet brings out all opinions and I am tore as to whether
this would promote or lessen corrosion.

My brain argues with itself as follows.....

a) I have an enclosed cargo trailer and as soon as I put any heat in it
ice
instantly forms on the walls and roof and as long as the heat is there it
"sweats" inside ...... I don't want this to happen in my engine
b) In central Canada typically the humidity goes down in the winter with
the
cold anyway so is it even worth the effort.
c) Cold air holds less water than warm air so if the inside of the cowl is
warm could there potentially be more water there now to eventually
condense
inside the engine and cause rust
d) Perhaps the heating element would "dry out" the air inside the cowl
and
eliminate the humidity which is required for corrosion???

I have heard that while reiff style heaters work well they do cause
sweating
inside the engine as is the case with my trailer and should only be used
if
you plan on flying soon .....

This is just my rambling and I am no expert. I would love to get all
other
points of view. I am very tempted to bundle the cowling up real tight and
put some heat inside possibly on a thermostat that keeps the temperature
around +2 Celsius. Also note that due to our situation we don't plan on
much winter flying so we are essentially storing the airplane for the
winter.




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa
Sent: December-02-11 3:14 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hi John: I've heard of Reiff heaters (Reiff preheat systems, or
reiffpreheat.com) which mainly heat electrictly the base of the cylinders,
individually, and have thermostatic control to avoid those unwanted
surprises of overheated engines. They also have oil pan heaters. I have in
my engine to keep it warm and avoid humidity inside the engine (24/7), and
I
live in a humid warm area. Regards, Eduardo


El 02/12/11 16:45, "John R. Davidson" <skidaddy20000@hotmail.com>
escribi�:

Hello All,

I am planning to do some winter flying this year and am looking for
some advice and guidelines on preheating the engine, an O-320 in my case.
The Rebel lives in a fully enclosed, unheated hangar, with
electricity. The plane has a Tannis type sump heater.

1) At what outside temperature do you consider pre-heating desirable,
mandatory?

2) Is it necessary, advisable, a waste of time to have a hot air
blower circulating air over the cylynders? I've seen some propane
powered, some electric powered.
One of my ultra-light friends uses an electric paint stripping gun to
preheat his engine. I keep telling him its a snowmobile engine, and
likes the cold, but to no avail.

3) I'm not likely to spring for custom insulated cowl covers, but is
there any point in wrapping an old sleeping-bag around the cowls while

warming?

4) Would it be unwise to put the Tannis on a programmable timer set to
come on a couple of hours before I expect to arrive next time? Don't
want to arrive to a pile of ashes and cinders.

5) Are there any other thoughts, ideas, considerations to make this
project safer, more convenient, more comfortable?

Thanks for your suggestions.

John



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I know an engine overhaul guy who parked an IO 540 he just overhauled in
his shop over a winter because the owner didn't pay up. When the dispute
was finally settled they couldn't turn the engine over. It was
completely seized. They put it down to turning the heat down at night
over the winter on the Wet Coast.

Bob.

On 12/2/2011 5:05 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

You're not disagreeing with me Curt... as I stated in the first reply I
made..

IF< you are going to fly regularily on Saturdays... no issues with a 7 day

timer plugged in and the heater on it for about 4 hours prior to planned
arrival.

If you're not gonna fly... you're just creating a problem when everything
condenses at heater shut down if you don't fly. Mind you this also happens
when you shut down after the two hour flight and tuck her away, but at least
you slung oil on everything and hopefully ran hot enough to boil any
moisture out of the engine.

----- Original Message -----
From:<rebflyer@aol.com>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hi Dan,
I dont very often disagree with Wayne ( or dare to! :) ) but I have been
the maintainance manager for a flying club for the last 10 years and
involved with the club for much more than that.
We keep the aircraft heat sytems plugged in all winter. NO on and off.
Thats what makes the moisture pump. We also keep a small electric heater
in the cabin that keeps the inside of the cabin at about 50 f.
We just o'hauled an 0-360 in our C-172 that had 3100hrs on the bottom
end. The rebuilder stated that it looked better than most of the ones he
does at TBO. The cam was within specs to use again as were the lifters and
crank. Minor case fretting was the only surprise.
The key is the aircraft get flown! Between 150 and 250 hrs per year.
We use the Reiff system, and the bands really do help heat soak the
entire engine. We also keep a couple of old sleeping bags tossed over the
cowl and the thermostat in the systems stop any coking of the oil.
I go by a basic rule for my Rebel and Long-ez. Once its plugged in it
stays plugged in until its flown. I try to fly at least twice a month,
long enough to get the engine oil temp up to normal ops, about 185 deg.
I did see an 800hr engine that the rebuilder could barely get apart due to
rust and corrosion. That owner had a timer on his preheater that would
turn the heat on daily for about 4hrs, then turn off. He only flew about
50 hrs a year. The rebuild had been done about 5 yrs prior. The entire
engine was unusable, it just got tossed.
In the end I guess the best rule of thumb is to keep the temps constant,
either with a well insulated cowl and light bulb or a pre heat system that
heat soaks the entire engine, not just the outside.
IMHO
Curt Martin
N97MR


-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea<oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: rebel-builders<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:47 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying


I don't like the cylinder heater bands or oil pan heaters myself Dan...
they
o exactly what you're saying. They heat one part of the engine and create
a
irculating humidifier via the cold surfaces and cause things to rust. This
s why I like to heat it all with the air blowing heater, as a mass, from
irculating air around the engine and letting it heat up as one big blob of
etal. I've had no issues with doing this for the last 20 years of aircraft
wnership and I had all my cylinders pulled off last fall for a cracked
alve/guide issues and there was absolutely NO rust or corrosion internally
n my engine. Cam and lifters (which is always the down side of a Lycoming)
ooked like brand new. I'll stick with what I'm doing 'till I'm below the
rass!
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Dan Cook"<dan.cook@meridiansurveys.ca>
o:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
ent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:23 PM
ubject: RE: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hello all, I have followed the forms for a while now but have never got in
on the discussions..... I cant help myself this time. I have also often
wondered if it would be a good idea to leave a little heat on under the
cowl
through the winter. I suspect if the cowl was well bundled up it would
not
take very much power (even 50 to 100 watts) would make a big temperature
differential between outside the cowl and inside on a -40 degree
centigrade
night especially inside a good hangar. The effects of this heat would
even
migrate into the cabin and some of those expensive instruments (especially
glass panels) would benefit even if they were only 5 degrees warmer than
outside. Most of all the wife might not even notice the cost of the 50 or
100 watts on the electricity bill (how many 100 watt light bulbs burn all
evening in the house ??)

However the internet brings out all opinions and I am tore as to whether
this would promote or lessen corrosion.

My brain argues with itself as follows.....

a) I have an enclosed cargo trailer and as soon as I put any heat in it
ice
instantly forms on the walls and roof and as long as the heat is there it
"sweats" inside ...... I don't want this to happen in my engine
b) In central Canada typically the humidity goes down in the winter with
the
cold anyway so is it even worth the effort.
c) Cold air holds less water than warm air so if the inside of the cowl is
warm could there potentially be more water there now to eventually
condense
inside the engine and cause rust
d) Perhaps the heating element would "dry out" the air inside the cowl
and
eliminate the humidity which is required for corrosion???

I have heard that while reiff style heaters work well they do cause
sweating
inside the engine as is the case with my trailer and should only be used
if
you plan on flying soon .....

This is just my rambling and I am no expert. I would love to get all
other
points of view. I am very tempted to bundle the cowling up real tight and
put some heat inside possibly on a thermostat that keeps the temperature
around +2 Celsius. Also note that due to our situation we don't plan on
much winter flying so we are essentially storing the airplane for the
winter.




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa
Sent: December-02-11 3:14 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hi John: I've heard of Reiff heaters (Reiff preheat systems, or
reiffpreheat.com) which mainly heat electrictly the base of the cylinders,
individually, and have thermostatic control to avoid those unwanted
surprises of overheated engines. They also have oil pan heaters. I have in
my engine to keep it warm and avoid humidity inside the engine (24/7), and
I
live in a humid warm area. Regards, Eduardo


El 02/12/11 16:45, "John R. Davidson"<skidaddy20000@hotmail.com>
escribi�:

Hello All,

I am planning to do some winter flying this year and am looking for
some advice and guidelines on preheating the engine, an O-320 in my case.
The Rebel lives in a fully enclosed, unheated hangar, with
electricity. The plane has a Tannis type sump heater.

1) At what outside temperature do you consider pre-heating desirable,
mandatory?

2) Is it necessary, advisable, a waste of time to have a hot air
blower circulating air over the cylynders? I've seen some propane
powered, some electric powered.
One of my ultra-light friends uses an electric paint stripping gun to
preheat his engine. I keep telling him its a snowmobile engine, and
likes the cold, but to no avail.

3) I'm not likely to spring for custom insulated cowl covers, but is
there any point in wrapping an old sleeping-bag around the cowls while

warming?

4) Would it be unwise to put the Tannis on a programmable timer set to
come on a couple of hours before I expect to arrive next time? Don't
want to arrive to a pile of ashes and cinders.

5) Are there any other thoughts, ideas, considerations to make this
project safer, more convenient, more comfortable?

Thanks for your suggestions.

John



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Yep.. sad but common with guys that buy a fresh overhaul and then stick it
in the corner of their basement for a few years while they continue to build
their aircraft. If you're gonna store a lyco for more than a couple weeks..
cap the dipstick port...turn it upside down on an old tire and FILL it full
of oil.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

I know an engine overhaul guy who parked an IO 540 he just overhauled in
his shop over a winter because the owner didn't pay up. When the dispute
was finally settled they couldn't turn the engine over. It was
completely seized. They put it down to turning the heat down at night
over the winter on the Wet Coast.

Bob.

On 12/2/2011 5:05 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

You're not disagreeing with me Curt... as I stated in the first reply I
made..

IF< you are going to fly regularily on Saturdays... no issues with a 7
day

timer plugged in and the heater on it for about 4 hours prior to planned
arrival.

If you're not gonna fly... you're just creating a problem when everything
condenses at heater shut down if you don't fly. Mind you this also
happens
when you shut down after the two hour flight and tuck her away, but at
least
you slung oil on everything and hopefully ran hot enough to boil any
moisture out of the engine.

----- Original Message -----
From:<rebflyer@aol.com>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hi Dan,
I dont very often disagree with Wayne ( or dare to! :) ) but I have
been
the maintainance manager for a flying club for the last 10 years and
involved with the club for much more than that.
We keep the aircraft heat sytems plugged in all winter. NO on and off.
Thats what makes the moisture pump. We also keep a small electric heater
in the cabin that keeps the inside of the cabin at about 50 f.
We just o'hauled an 0-360 in our C-172 that had 3100hrs on the bottom
end. The rebuilder stated that it looked better than most of the ones he
does at TBO. The cam was within specs to use again as were the lifters
and
crank. Minor case fretting was the only surprise.
The key is the aircraft get flown! Between 150 and 250 hrs per year.
We use the Reiff system, and the bands really do help heat soak the
entire engine. We also keep a couple of old sleeping bags tossed over
the
cowl and the thermostat in the systems stop any coking of the oil.
I go by a basic rule for my Rebel and Long-ez. Once its plugged in it
stays plugged in until its flown. I try to fly at least twice a month,
long enough to get the engine oil temp up to normal ops, about 185 deg.
I did see an 800hr engine that the rebuilder could barely get apart due
to
rust and corrosion. That owner had a timer on his preheater that would
turn the heat on daily for about 4hrs, then turn off. He only flew about
50 hrs a year. The rebuild had been done about 5 yrs prior. The entire
engine was unusable, it just got tossed.
In the end I guess the best rule of thumb is to keep the temps constant,
either with a well insulated cowl and light bulb or a pre heat system
that
heat soaks the entire engine, not just the outside.
IMHO
Curt Martin
N97MR


-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea<oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: rebel-builders<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:47 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying


I don't like the cylinder heater bands or oil pan heaters myself Dan...
they
o exactly what you're saying. They heat one part of the engine and
create
a
irculating humidifier via the cold surfaces and cause things to rust.
This
s why I like to heat it all with the air blowing heater, as a mass, from
irculating air around the engine and letting it heat up as one big blob
of
etal. I've had no issues with doing this for the last 20 years of
aircraft
wnership and I had all my cylinders pulled off last fall for a cracked
alve/guide issues and there was absolutely NO rust or corrosion
internally
n my engine. Cam and lifters (which is always the down side of a
Lycoming)
ooked like brand new. I'll stick with what I'm doing 'till I'm below the
rass!
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Dan Cook"<dan.cook@meridiansurveys.ca>
o:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
ent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:23 PM
ubject: RE: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hello all, I have followed the forms for a while now but have never got
in
on the discussions..... I cant help myself this time. I have also often
wondered if it would be a good idea to leave a little heat on under the
cowl
through the winter. I suspect if the cowl was well bundled up it would
not
take very much power (even 50 to 100 watts) would make a big temperature
differential between outside the cowl and inside on a -40 degree
centigrade
night especially inside a good hangar. The effects of this heat would
even
migrate into the cabin and some of those expensive instruments
(especially
glass panels) would benefit even if they were only 5 degrees warmer than
outside. Most of all the wife might not even notice the cost of the 50
or
100 watts on the electricity bill (how many 100 watt light bulbs burn
all
evening in the house ??)

However the internet brings out all opinions and I am tore as to whether
this would promote or lessen corrosion.

My brain argues with itself as follows.....

a) I have an enclosed cargo trailer and as soon as I put any heat in it
ice
instantly forms on the walls and roof and as long as the heat is there
it
"sweats" inside ...... I don't want this to happen in my engine
b) In central Canada typically the humidity goes down in the winter with
the
cold anyway so is it even worth the effort.
c) Cold air holds less water than warm air so if the inside of the cowl
is
warm could there potentially be more water there now to eventually
condense
inside the engine and cause rust
d) Perhaps the heating element would "dry out" the air inside the cowl
and
eliminate the humidity which is required for corrosion???

I have heard that while reiff style heaters work well they do cause
sweating
inside the engine as is the case with my trailer and should only be used
if
you plan on flying soon .....

This is just my rambling and I am no expert. I would love to get all
other
points of view. I am very tempted to bundle the cowling up real tight
and
put some heat inside possibly on a thermostat that keeps the temperature
around +2 Celsius. Also note that due to our situation we don't plan on
much winter flying so we are essentially storing the airplane for the
winter.




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa
Sent: December-02-11 3:14 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hi John: I've heard of Reiff heaters (Reiff preheat systems, or
reiffpreheat.com) which mainly heat electrictly the base of the
cylinders,
individually, and have thermostatic control to avoid those unwanted
surprises of overheated engines. They also have oil pan heaters. I have
in
my engine to keep it warm and avoid humidity inside the engine (24/7),
and
I
live in a humid warm area. Regards, Eduardo


El 02/12/11 16:45, "John R. Davidson"<skidaddy20000@hotmail.com>
escribi�:
warming?

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Air cooled cylinders heat up and expand more at the top end. Therefore
they are often machined with choke which means the cylinder diameter is
slightly less at the top. If started when very cold the piston can bind
at the top of the stroke. Preheating the cylinders expands the cylinder
enough to substantially reduce cold start wear. Aluminum pistons also
expand faster than an iron cylinder when the engine does start so
preheating is a really good idea. Some owners absolutely refuse to
start an engine without preheat below 5*C.

As others have mentioned moisture causes corrosion and corrosion is
faster at warmer temperatures. Heating only the oil moves the moisture
up to the cylinders and camshaft with obvious results so continuous heat
at the oil pan is probably the worst thing you can do. A couple of hours
before starting up would be OK. Much better than
continuous heat of any kind is a drier. There is a commercial unit but I
believe the EAA also recently pulblished plans for a homebuilt one.
Basically a soda pop bottle full of dessicant and a very small fan or
aquarium pump to dry out the crankcase. There is even an auto dry cycle
mod for drying the dessicant if you want. Power consumption is trivial
compared to even a light bulb under the cowl and results will be much
superior.

Another thought is that the only oil additive that I've ever purchased
or recommended is Camguard. Philips also sells a much cheaper anti
corrosion additive. Either probably makes sense for an engine that sits
more than a week or so.

Ken


On 02/12/2011 3:45 PM, John R. Davidson wrote:

Hello All,

I am planning to do some winter flying this year and am looking for
some advice and guidelines on preheating the engine, an O-320 in my
case. The Rebel lives in a fully enclosed, unheated hangar, with
electricity. The plane has a Tannis type sump heater.

1) At what outside temperature do you consider pre-heating desirable,
mandatory?

2) Is it necessary, advisable, a waste of time to have a hot air
blower circulating air over the cylynders? I've seen some propane
powered, some electric powered. One of my ultra-light friends uses an
electric paint stripping gun to preheat his engine. I keep telling
him its a snowmobile engine, and likes the cold, but to no avail.

3) I'm not likely to spring for custom insulated cowl covers, but is
there any point in wrapping an old sleeping-bag around the cowls
while warming?

4) Would it be unwise to put the Tannis on a programmable timer set
to come on a couple of hours before I expect to arrive next time?
Don't want to arrive to a pile of ashes and cinders.

5) Are there any other thoughts, ideas, considerations to make this
project safer, more convenient, more comfortable?

Thanks for your suggestions.

John

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Wayne I Have (Rebel Sub Kit #1 Kit 789 I would to sell it is 99%
comp. with elect trim, if you know anyone that might like to buy it I
would sell for good cost. I have pics of the build and would send them
to anyone THANK YOU (John A. Brusseau 989-302-0289 or
(jab7ac@charter.net) I sold spring gear to Ron S. thanks JOHN


On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Yep.. sad but common with guys that buy a fresh overhaul and then
stick it in the corner of their basement for a few years while they
continue to build their aircraft. If you're gonna store a lyco for
more than a couple weeks.. cap the dipstick port...turn it upside
down on an old tire and FILL it full of oil.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

I know an engine overhaul guy who parked an IO 540 he just overhauled
in
his shop over a winter because the owner didn't pay up. When the
dispute
was finally settled they couldn't turn the engine over. It was
completely seized. They put it down to turning the heat down at night
over the winter on the Wet Coast.

Bob.

On 12/2/2011 5:05 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

You're not disagreeing with me Curt... as I stated in the first
reply I
made..
timer plugged in and the heater on it for about 4 hours prior to
planned
arrival.

If you're not gonna fly... you're just creating a problem when
everything
condenses at heater shut down if you don't fly. Mind you this also
happens
when you shut down after the two hour flight and tuck her away, but
at least
you slung oil on everything and hopefully ran hot enough to boil any
moisture out of the engine.

----- Original Message -----
From:<rebflyer@aol.com>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying



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Hi: I am not at all familiar with below freezing temperatures, because I
live in a tropical area of this globe. Food for thought is the fact that
below freezing temperatures, the air tends to be dry, it's only logical,
although when you raise the temperature of air around an object, as warmer
air has a larger capacity to store humidity (relative humidity is "relative"
to ambient temperature) that humidity will condense in contact with an
object which has a lower temperature, unless that object has a higher
temperature than its surrounding air, which is when it will reject humidity
and stay dry.
This explains why inside the cargo trailer will condense air when heat is
turned up, the trailer is colder than its ambient temperature.
My advice is to leave the engine cold below freezing till the time you must
start it, which is when the engine must be heated to well above freezing
temperatures, let

A quick thought here from someone at the other end of the spectrum.

Granted, you will definitely want the best heat you can get in your
airplane, and keeping your windows defrosted is a must... but please
remember that "if" you ever find yourself on the ground prior to reaching
your planned destination, you will often find that you have only what you
are wearing. In other words, dress warmly, and turn the heat down if you
get too warm.

I had to do a search last winter for a lost snow machiner near Fort Yukon,
and the temperature on the ground was -53F... at 1500 AGL it jumped up to
-25F... but I still flew with a sleeping back across our laps! And yes, you
can land a C206 without ever getting the RPM below the green arc!

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 7:32 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Winter Rebel Flying

Hi: I am not at all familiar with below freezing temperatures, because I
live in a tropical area of this globe. Food for thought is the fact that
below freezing temperatures, the air tends to be dry, it's only logical,
although when you raise the temperature of air around an object, as warmer
air has a larger capacity to store humidity (relative humidity is "relative"
to ambient temperature) that humidity will condense in contact with an
object which has a lower temperature, unless that object has a higher
temperature than its surrounding air, which is when it will reject humidity
and stay dry.
This explains why inside the cargo trailer will condense air when heat is
turned up, the trailer is colder than its ambient temperature.
My advice is to leave the engine cold below freezing till the time you must
start it, which is when the engine must be heated to well above freezing
temperatures, let