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[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

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Bob Palmer

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

Post by Bob Palmer » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:34 pm

I think Spot is a great concept. Had they been designed for aircraft
they should have had a better transmitter, remote antenna and closer
spaced reports. Also, they can't be used in the far north because of
satellite reception and they are miserable to deal with. For what they
provide they are very expensive in my opinion. I have one probably for
the same reason as you but after 2nd year won't renew the contract.
We are now using a cheap Ameri-King 451 upgraded to accept GPS. The
procedure is going to be in the event of a serious problem we will
activate the ELT and answer questions later. It really amazes me that TC
can't figure out that 406 is never going to work in a crash, maybe on
the prairies if it stops right side up.

Bob

On 11/3/2011 6:32 AM, jessejenks72@gmail.com wrote:
I love my AK 121.5 elt. It looks just as orange and useless as the day I got it, and it was cheap.
When 406 becomes mandatory I will probably get the cheapest one of those too.

I got a Spot because I actually want to get rescued.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea"<oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation
Date: Wed, Nov 2, 2011 3:34 pm


Talk with Carl and tell him you were talking with me about going 406. We go
back to the day he opened shop and he's a straight shooter. If he says the
retro kit is okay, then he means it. If he says to sell it on ebay and buy a
Kannad well like I said he's as honest as they come.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Kriening"<kriening@rogers.com>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

Looks like I misspoke. After checking the box again it appears I have a
ACK-e01. Not sure if they use the same type of housing as Ameri-King, but
they look similar. Discount Avionics has a retrofit kit for $580.00. Does
this change the story at all, or is it still not worth putting the money
into this. I have no experience with the various brands. As I don't have
anything installed in the plane yet, I can purchase whichever.

Roland




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 4:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

I still don't think anything has been finally finallized on the 406 fiasco
here in Canada Roland....so you'd be legal to start off with the AK-450
the
way it is (if it tests okay that is) and change over later.

I absolutely would not spend the $$$'s to update an AK to a 406. Their
biggest enemy is corrosion for terrible sealing. Carl Bertrand (owner
Discount Electronics) absolutely swayed me away from any AK products to go
406 on Bob White's Elite. We did his aircraft this spring (after TWO
AK-450's hit the garbage can for it in 3 years). The unit that was
recommended at the top of his list, for the best moisture seal, was the
KANNAD AF Compact
http://www.discountavionics.com/elt%204 ... compact.ht
m
It's gonna set you back a thousand bucks... or I see they now have one
with
built in GPS for $200 more.

The KANNAD AF Compact was easy to install. The tray has multiple holes to
match just about any existing ELT tray bolt holes and I bolted it right
into

the orginal spot. A new switch has to be wired into the panel location, as
you can't use the old one, but if I remember correctly it only required 3
wires so I used the existing "phone" cable that was already pulled through
the airframe and connected it to the new plugs for unit and switch.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Kriening"<kriening@rogers.com>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 2:10 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Encoder Recommendation ?

Wayne, I received an older AK ($500 to upgrade) with my kit. I will
either
have to upgrade it to 406 or purchase new. What brand or type would you
recommend other than AK?


Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 10:11 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Encoder Recommendation ?

I agree with you on their ELT's Bob. Absolute JUNK! I have 6 of those
"duracell" battery style ELT's in the filing cabinet all with osillator
failure or worse. One was it's first time in for recert! If anyone here
is
running one of those orange AK-450's... even though the red light comes
on
during test it DOES NOT mean it actually can transmit a signal.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer"<rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Encoder Recommendation ?



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Mike Davis

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

Post by Mike Davis » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:34 pm

A lot of the pilots I know that fly out of Fairbanks carry a Spot with them,
I know I always do. I've flown as far as 100 miles North of the Arctic
Circle and had no problems with it. The only time I have gaps in my
reporting is when I'm down in a valley in the mountains. Some of the
narrow, steep sided valleys will mask it, but other than that it has worked
great! Our local CAP unit purchased a couple of Spots and carries them on
all flights. CAP has a 1/2 hour reporting requirement, and there are a lot
of instances where we have no radio coverage at all, and are unable to
report... so the Spot track is our reporting.

It's kind of like getting XM weather for your Garmin up here. Since you
"may" have trouble receiving XM in certain areas, they won't even sell you a
subscription. But if you have someone in the lower 48 who will let you use
their address to purchase the subscription... it works just fine 99.9% of
the time up here.

I consider the $149 a year price cheap insurance when flying here in
Alaska... try pricing a Sat phone! My plan in an accident would be to use
the Spot 911 to alert authorities, then use my old 121.5 ELT so the CAP
search plane can actually find me... since only a couple of the CAP aircraft
in Alaska have direction finding gear for 406, but any airplane with a com
radio can pick up a 121.5 ELT from 30 miles out.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

I think Spot is a great concept. Had they been designed for aircraft
they should have had a better transmitter, remote antenna and closer
spaced reports. Also, they can't be used in the far north because of
satellite reception and they are miserable to deal with. For what they
provide they are very expensive in my opinion. I have one probably for
the same reason as you but after 2nd year won't renew the contract.
We are now using a cheap Ameri-King 451 upgraded to accept GPS. The
procedure is going to be in the event of a serious problem we will
activate the ELT and answer questions later. It really amazes me that TC
can't figure out that 406 is never going to work in a crash, maybe on
the prairies if it stops right side up.

Bob

On 11/3/2011 6:32 AM, jessejenks72@gmail.com wrote:
I love my AK 121.5 elt. It looks just as orange and useless as the day I
got it, and it was cheap.
When 406 becomes mandatory I will probably get the cheapest one of those
too.

I got a Spot because I actually want to get rescued.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea"<oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation
Date: Wed, Nov 2, 2011 3:34 pm


Talk with Carl and tell him you were talking with me about going 406. We
go
back to the day he opened shop and he's a straight shooter. If he says
the
retro kit is okay, then he means it. If he says to sell it on ebay and
buy a
Kannad well like I said he's as honest as they come.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Kriening"<kriening@rogers.com>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

Looks like I misspoke. After checking the box again it appears I have a
ACK-e01. Not sure if they use the same type of housing as Ameri-King,
but
they look similar. Discount Avionics has a retrofit kit for $580.00.
Does
this change the story at all, or is it still not worth putting the money
into this. I have no experience with the various brands. As I don't have
anything installed in the plane yet, I can purchase whichever.

Roland




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 4:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

I still don't think anything has been finally finallized on the 406
fiasco
here in Canada Roland....so you'd be legal to start off with the AK-450
the
way it is (if it tests okay that is) and change over later.

I absolutely would not spend the $$$'s to update an AK to a 406. Their
biggest enemy is corrosion for terrible sealing. Carl Bertrand (owner
Discount Electronics) absolutely swayed me away from any AK products to
go
406 on Bob White's Elite. We did his aircraft this spring (after TWO
AK-450's hit the garbage can for it in 3 years). The unit that was
recommended at the top of his list, for the best moisture seal, was the
KANNAD AF Compact
http://www.discountavionics.com/elt%204 ... compact.ht
m
It's gonna set you back a thousand bucks... or I see they now have one
with
built in GPS for $200 more.

The KANNAD AF Compact was easy to install. The tray has multiple holes
to
match just about any existing ELT tray bolt holes and I bolted it right
into

the orginal spot. A new switch has to be wired into the panel location,
as
you can't use the old one, but if I remember correctly it only required
3
wires so I used the existing "phone" cable that was already pulled
through
the airframe and connected it to the new plugs for unit and switch.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Kriening"<kriening@rogers.com>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 2:10 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Encoder Recommendation ?



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Bob Palmer

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

Post by Bob Palmer » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:34 pm

I agree with you that Spot is better than 406 but maybe the 406 that is
transmitting your GPS coordinates is better still?

Bob

On 11/3/2011 9:22 AM, Mike Davis wrote:
A lot of the pilots I know that fly out of Fairbanks carry a Spot with them,
I know I always do. I've flown as far as 100 miles North of the Arctic
Circle and had no problems with it. The only time I have gaps in my
reporting is when I'm down in a valley in the mountains. Some of the
narrow, steep sided valleys will mask it, but other than that it has worked
great! Our local CAP unit purchased a couple of Spots and carries them on
all flights. CAP has a 1/2 hour reporting requirement, and there are a lot
of instances where we have no radio coverage at all, and are unable to
report... so the Spot track is our reporting.

It's kind of like getting XM weather for your Garmin up here. Since you
"may" have trouble receiving XM in certain areas, they won't even sell you a
subscription. But if you have someone in the lower 48 who will let you use
their address to purchase the subscription... it works just fine 99.9% of
the time up here.

I consider the $149 a year price cheap insurance when flying here in
Alaska... try pricing a Sat phone! My plan in an accident would be to use
the Spot 911 to alert authorities, then use my old 121.5 ELT so the CAP
search plane can actually find me... since only a couple of the CAP aircraft
in Alaska have direction finding gear for 406, but any airplane with a com
radio can pick up a 121.5 ELT from 30 miles out.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer"<rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

I think Spot is a great concept. Had they been designed for aircraft
they should have had a better transmitter, remote antenna and closer
spaced reports. Also, they can't be used in the far north because of
satellite reception and they are miserable to deal with. For what they
provide they are very expensive in my opinion. I have one probably for
the same reason as you but after 2nd year won't renew the contract.
We are now using a cheap Ameri-King 451 upgraded to accept GPS. The
procedure is going to be in the event of a serious problem we will
activate the ELT and answer questions later. It really amazes me that TC
can't figure out that 406 is never going to work in a crash, maybe on
the prairies if it stops right side up.

Bob

On 11/3/2011 6:32 AM, jessejenks72@gmail.com wrote:
I love my AK 121.5 elt. It looks just as orange and useless as the day I
got it, and it was cheap.
When 406 becomes mandatory I will probably get the cheapest one of those
too.

I got a Spot because I actually want to get rescued.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea"<oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation
Date: Wed, Nov 2, 2011 3:34 pm


Talk with Carl and tell him you were talking with me about going 406. We
go
back to the day he opened shop and he's a straight shooter. If he says
the
retro kit is okay, then he means it. If he says to sell it on ebay and
buy a
Kannad well like I said he's as honest as they come.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Kriening"<kriening@rogers.com>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation


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Bob Palmer

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

Post by Bob Palmer » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:34 pm

I would rate 121.5 as best because there is a chance it could be heard
in the event of an accident. I think they nearly eliminate that
possibility with 406 by itself and that includes 406 with GPS but the
latter if operated ahead of a crash will give your exact position. But I
could be wrong.

Bob


On 11/3/2011 9:35 AM, Bob Palmer wrote:
I agree with you that Spot is better than 406 but maybe the 406 that is
transmitting your GPS coordinates is better still?

Bob

On 11/3/2011 9:22 AM, Mike Davis wrote:
A lot of the pilots I know that fly out of Fairbanks carry a Spot with them,
I know I always do. I've flown as far as 100 miles North of the Arctic
Circle and had no problems with it. The only time I have gaps in my
reporting is when I'm down in a valley in the mountains. Some of the
narrow, steep sided valleys will mask it, but other than that it has worked
great! Our local CAP unit purchased a couple of Spots and carries them on
all flights. CAP has a 1/2 hour reporting requirement, and there are a lot
of instances where we have no radio coverage at all, and are unable to
report... so the Spot track is our reporting.

It's kind of like getting XM weather for your Garmin up here. Since you
"may" have trouble receiving XM in certain areas, they won't even sell you a
subscription. But if you have someone in the lower 48 who will let you use
their address to purchase the subscription... it works just fine 99.9% of
the time up here.

I consider the $149 a year price cheap insurance when flying here in
Alaska... try pricing a Sat phone! My plan in an accident would be to use
the Spot 911 to alert authorities, then use my old 121.5 ELT so the CAP
search plane can actually find me... since only a couple of the CAP aircraft
in Alaska have direction finding gear for 406, but any airplane with a com
radio can pick up a 121.5 ELT from 30 miles out.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer"<rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

I think Spot is a great concept. Had they been designed for aircraft
they should have had a better transmitter, remote antenna and closer
spaced reports. Also, they can't be used in the far north because of
satellite reception and they are miserable to deal with. For what they
provide they are very expensive in my opinion. I have one probably for
the same reason as you but after 2nd year won't renew the contract.
We are now using a cheap Ameri-King 451 upgraded to accept GPS. The
procedure is going to be in the event of a serious problem we will
activate the ELT and answer questions later. It really amazes me that TC
can't figure out that 406 is never going to work in a crash, maybe on
the prairies if it stops right side up.

Bob

On 11/3/2011 6:32 AM, jessejenks72@gmail.com wrote: -----------------------------------------------------------------
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Mike Davis

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

Post by Mike Davis » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:34 pm

Yes, I agree that a 406 with GPS is the best. The problem with 406 without
GPS is that MOST search and rescue aircraft out there right now cannot track
the 406 signal. And while most 406 ELTs also broadcast 121.5, it is a much
weaker signal. As I mentioned before, the old 121.5 ELTs could be picked up
from 30 miles or more away, depending on terrain. But the new 406 ELTs
121.5 signal, can only be picked up from about 3 miles away. Good luck
getting a Satellite hit that will get you within 3 miles! That means we'll
be out there flying a search grid, until we happen to fly within that 3 mile
range.

Right now, Civil Air Patrol has all aircraft, nation wide, grounded due to
lack of maintenance funds. Since Congress has failed to pass the 2012 DOD
budget, CAP doesn't have any money. So right now, when we should have a
training exercise going on to train new scanners and observers, the
airplanes are just sitting in the hangar. As a mission pilot myself, I am
required to do a mission pilot check ride every 2 years, and an aircraft
check ride every year. My mission pilot status expires the end of this
month... and I can't take a check ride to renew my rating. So in a few more
months, there may not be anybody left to conduct the search flights anyway!

Remember, if you ever go down... stay with the airplane! It's a lot easier
to spot an airplane than a man from 1000' AGL. Use anything you can to
create something visual for the search crews to spot... something that
"doesn't belong". I carry a bright red emergency blanket in my gear, and a
roll of surveyor's tape in my vest. Flares, strobes, mirror or CD...
anything that will stand out against the background. Building a fire is
always a good idea too... the smokier the better.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

I agree with you that Spot is better than 406 but maybe the 406 that is
transmitting your GPS coordinates is better still?

Bob

On 11/3/2011 9:22 AM, Mike Davis wrote:
A lot of the pilots I know that fly out of Fairbanks carry a Spot with
them,
I know I always do. I've flown as far as 100 miles North of the Arctic
Circle and had no problems with it. The only time I have gaps in my
reporting is when I'm down in a valley in the mountains. Some of the
narrow, steep sided valleys will mask it, but other than that it has
worked
great! Our local CAP unit purchased a couple of Spots and carries them
on
all flights. CAP has a 1/2 hour reporting requirement, and there are a
lot
of instances where we have no radio coverage at all, and are unable to
report... so the Spot track is our reporting.

It's kind of like getting XM weather for your Garmin up here. Since you
"may" have trouble receiving XM in certain areas, they won't even sell
you a
subscription. But if you have someone in the lower 48 who will let you
use
their address to purchase the subscription... it works just fine 99.9% of
the time up here.

I consider the $149 a year price cheap insurance when flying here in
Alaska... try pricing a Sat phone! My plan in an accident would be to
use
the Spot 911 to alert authorities, then use my old 121.5 ELT so the CAP
search plane can actually find me... since only a couple of the CAP
aircraft
in Alaska have direction finding gear for 406, but any airplane with a
com
radio can pick up a 121.5 ELT from 30 miles out.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer"<rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

I think Spot is a great concept. Had they been designed for aircraft
they should have had a better transmitter, remote antenna and closer
spaced reports. Also, they can't be used in the far north because of
satellite reception and they are miserable to deal with. For what they
provide they are very expensive in my opinion. I have one probably for
the same reason as you but after 2nd year won't renew the contract.
We are now using a cheap Ameri-King 451 upgraded to accept GPS. The
procedure is going to be in the event of a serious problem we will
activate the ELT and answer questions later. It really amazes me that TC
can't figure out that 406 is never going to work in a crash, maybe on
the prairies if it stops right side up.

Bob

On 11/3/2011 6:32 AM, jessejenks72@gmail.com wrote: -----------------------------------------------------------------
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Mike Davis

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

Post by Mike Davis » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:34 pm

We had several saves in Alaska this year exactly like that... just listening
to 121.5 and heard the ELT and started the search from there.

The down side to that is if it is a high flier that hears it, then you're
initial search area is a circle with a 120 mile diameter! Which is over
11,000 sq. miles. But it can still work. I did a search last spring like
this, and I climbed to 11,500 enroute to the search area, picked up the ELT
in about 15 minutes, then used the DF and found the aircraft in about
another 15-20 minutes. But I entered the search area only about 40 miles
from where the aircraft was and flew at a heading that slowly decreased that
distance until I picked it up. So there's definitely some luck involved.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT recommendation

I would rate 121.5 as best because there is a chance it could be heard
in the event of an accident. I think they nearly eliminate that
possibility with 406 by itself and that includes 406 with GPS but the
latter if operated ahead of a crash will give your exact position. But I
could be wrong.

Bob


On 11/3/2011 9:35 AM, Bob Palmer wrote:
I agree with you that Spot is better than 406 but maybe the 406 that is
transmitting your GPS coordinates is better still?

Bob

On 11/3/2011 9:22 AM, Mike Davis wrote:
A lot of the pilots I know that fly out of Fairbanks carry a Spot with
them,
I know I always do. I've flown as far as 100 miles North of the Arctic
Circle and had no problems with it. The only time I have gaps in my
reporting is when I'm down in a valley in the mountains. Some of the
narrow, steep sided valleys will mask it, but other than that it has
worked
great! Our local CAP unit purchased a couple of Spots and carries them
on
all flights. CAP has a 1/2 hour reporting requirement, and there are a
lot
of instances where we have no radio coverage at all, and are unable to
report... so the Spot track is our reporting.

It's kind of like getting XM weather for your Garmin up here. Since you
"may" have trouble receiving XM in certain areas, they won't even sell
you a
subscription. But if you have someone in the lower 48 who will let you
use
their address to purchase the subscription... it works just fine 99.9%
of
the time up here.

I consider the $149 a year price cheap insurance when flying here in
Alaska... try pricing a Sat phone! My plan in an accident would be to
use
the Spot 911 to alert authorities, then use my old 121.5 ELT so the CAP
search plane can actually find me... since only a couple of the CAP
aircraft
in Alaska have direction finding gear for 406, but any airplane with a
com
radio can pick up a 121.5 ELT from 30 miles out.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer"<rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] 406 ELT
recommendation


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