The Murphy Builders Site

I have found that getting the mixed stuff in a syringe is a problem.
It's way too thick to suck up like you would want to, so you're left
with trying to load it in with a spatula of some sort. If you haven't
worked with the stuff before....it is the stickiest substance on earth.

Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 07:42:06 -0700
From: rtpalmer@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Or, go to a farm supply (horse) and they have plastic syringes of
various sizes. (any Vet would have them)
BTW, you can freeze the mixed stuff for a couple of weeks and it will
still be good. On the larger jobs we put our mix in little plastic dose
cups (Dollar Store) put them in the freezer right away and pull them out
one at a time as the job progresses. Takes all of the anxiety out of the
cure time.

Bob.


On 6/17/2011 8:43 AM, Garry Wright wrote:

Ron,

I think one way to get stuff in the hole is with an icing type squeeze
bottle from a kitchen store. A basting tool with a bulb on the end would
also work if it had a small enough tip.

Garry

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Ron Shannon<rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

The saga of my leaking right tank continues. For the worst remaining
rivet, neither Loctite 609 or Seal-All would do the trick when applied
with internal vacuum suction, so after lengthy cogitation, I decided
to try replacing the rivet. I drilled the rivet head off and gently
pushed the tail back up into the (springy) Pro-Seal inside, where it
remains. Am now intending to pump a bunch of Pro-Seal into the rivet
hole before replacing the tank rivet. I haven't worked with the
dreaded Pro-Seal before (didn't build the tanks) and have a couple
questions:


1) I have an (expensive but) unopened quart that has an expiration
date of 9/01/10. It's been stored in relatively cool temps. Do I dare
use it, or should I cough up the big bucks to get a fresh supply?

2) Any tips for measuring and mixing small batches? Per the can, I
gather the ratio is approx. 0.8 accelerator to 10 sealant, and per the
manual, it can be thinned with MEK if necessary.

3) My plan is to apply internal vacuum in the tank, and push as much
Pro-Seal as I can into the rivet hole from the outside using a small
suction cup. Any other ideas for methods to press it into a rivet
hole?

4) Per Wayne's earlier comments about not cracking the shop end, I'll
probably pull the new tank rivet by hand, after slobbering it with the
goop, of course.


I realize that pushing the rivet tail up into the existing Pro-Seal
carries the risk of opening more separation between sealant and metal,
but at this point it's really coming down to this tactic -- or cutting
football-sized access ports to redo the whole thing.


Ron
254R

PS - Sucking Loctite 609 into the seeps worked great on the left tank,
so it's still a viable method for others to start with.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I had 2 tank leaks (rear edge) and I was able to seal them
with ProSeal by adding more Toluene to the mixture to make
it flow through a syringe. It was fairly liquid. Then I was
able to attach a plastic tube (with a coat hanger attached)
to the end of the syringe and snake it to the back edge of
the tank through the gas cap hole to the area that was
leaking. Took several tries, but finally got it sealed. No
leaks since in 1/2 year of operation.

The process was involved. First I marked the areas that were
leaking. Then I had to empty all the gas and take the wing
off and turn it upside down. With the help of a scope I was
able to identify how to get the tubing to the area of the
leaks and where to put the liquid ProSeal. Once the tube was
in place, I attached the syringe and pushed really hard to
get it to flow and once syringe was empty, I blew into the
tube to empty it of ProSeal. With the wing upside down the
liquid Proseal settled in the area of the leak, spread out
and eventually dried. One leak took two tries.

To check if leaks were sealed I used water. DO NOT USE WATER.
I compromised my capacitance fuel gauge and drained water
(small amount) from the tank for several months before and
after each flight

PS The ProSeal mixture was liquid enough to draw it up into
the Syringe. Tests prior to trying the stuff on the tank
proved to me that ProSeal mixed to be quite liquid still set
up very well and adhered well. I would advise you thinning
and testing before hand to satisfy yourself. It is a mess so
have some old on hand

Hope this helps


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 11:13 AM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues


I have found that getting the mixed stuff in a syringe is a problem.
It's way too thick to suck up like you would want to, so you're left
with trying to load it in with a spatula of some sort. If you haven't
worked with the stuff before....it is the stickiest substance on earth.

Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 07:42:06 -0700
From: rtpalmer@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Or, go to a farm supply (horse) and they have plastic syringes of
various sizes. (any Vet would have them)
BTW, you can freeze the mixed stuff for a couple of weeks and it will
still be good. On the larger jobs we put our mix in little plastic dose
cups (Dollar Store) put them in the freezer right away and pull them out
one at a time as the job progresses. Takes all of the anxiety out of the
cure time.

Bob.


On 6/17/2011 8:43 AM, Garry Wright wrote:

Ron,

I think one way to get stuff in the hole is with an icing type squeeze
bottle from a kitchen store. A basting tool with a bulb on the end

would

also work if it had a small enough tip.

Garry

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Ron Shannon<rshannon@cruzcom.com>

wrote:

The saga of my leaking right tank continues. For the worst remaining
rivet, neither Loctite 609 or Seal-All would do the trick when applied
with internal vacuum suction, so after lengthy cogitation, I decided
to try replacing the rivet. I drilled the rivet head off and gently
pushed the tail back up into the (springy) Pro-Seal inside, where it
remains. Am now intending to pump a bunch of Pro-Seal into the rivet
hole before replacing the tank rivet. I haven't worked with the
dreaded Pro-Seal before (didn't build the tanks) and have a couple
questions:


1) I have an (expensive but) unopened quart that has an expiration
date of 9/01/10. It's been stored in relatively cool temps. Do I dare
use it, or should I cough up the big bucks to get a fresh supply?

2) Any tips for measuring and mixing small batches? Per the can, I
gather the ratio is approx. 0.8 accelerator to 10 sealant, and per the
manual, it can be thinned with MEK if necessary.

3) My plan is to apply internal vacuum in the tank, and push as much
Pro-Seal as I can into the rivet hole from the outside using a small
suction cup. Any other ideas for methods to press it into a rivet
hole?

4) Per Wayne's earlier comments about not cracking the shop end, I'll
probably pull the new tank rivet by hand, after slobbering it with the
goop, of course.


I realize that pushing the rivet tail up into the existing Pro-Seal
carries the risk of opening more separation between sealant and metal,
but at this point it's really coming down to this tactic -- or cutting
football-sized access ports to redo the whole thing.


Ron
254R

PS - Sucking Loctite 609 into the seeps worked great on the left tank,
so it's still a viable method for others to start with.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ron,

I was told by the makers that the date was important for certified work but
the quality of the Pro-seal wasn't bad out of date. Mine had been in 60
degrees or less but was 18 months out of date and I was told not to worry.
Use a food scale or something fairly accurate with small batches. Also, be
mindful of the open time; some of the stuff is 1/2 hour and it means it! ha
ha Good Luck. You're gonna love the stuff! Craig


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 12:53 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

The saga of my leaking right tank continues. For the worst remaining
rivet, neither Loctite 609 or Seal-All would do the trick when applied
with internal vacuum suction, so after lengthy cogitation, I decided
to try replacing the rivet. I drilled the rivet head off and gently
pushed the tail back up into the (springy) Pro-Seal inside, where it
remains. Am now intending to pump a bunch of Pro-Seal into the rivet
hole before replacing the tank rivet. I haven't worked with the
dreaded Pro-Seal before (didn't build the tanks) and have a couple
questions:


1) I have an (expensive but) unopened quart that has an expiration
date of 9/01/10. It's been stored in relatively cool temps. Do I dare
use it, or should I cough up the big bucks to get a fresh supply?

2) Any tips for measuring and mixing small batches? Per the can, I
gather the ratio is approx. 0.8 accelerator to 10 sealant, and per the
manual, it can be thinned with MEK if necessary.

3) My plan is to apply internal vacuum in the tank, and push as much
Pro-Seal as I can into the rivet hole from the outside using a small
suction cup. Any other ideas for methods to press it into a rivet
hole?

4) Per Wayne's earlier comments about not cracking the shop end, I'll
probably pull the new tank rivet by hand, after slobbering it with the
goop, of course.


I realize that pushing the rivet tail up into the existing Pro-Seal
carries the risk of opening more separation between sealant and metal,
but at this point it's really coming down to this tactic -- or cutting
football-sized access ports to redo the whole thing.


Ron
254R

PS - Sucking Loctite 609 into the seeps worked great on the left tank,
so it's still a viable method for others to start with.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ron,

I think one way to get stuff in the hole is with an icing type squeeze
bottle from a kitchen store. A basting tool with a bulb on the end would
also work if it had a small enough tip.

Garry

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

The saga of my leaking right tank continues. For the worst remaining
rivet, neither Loctite 609 or Seal-All would do the trick when applied
with internal vacuum suction, so after lengthy cogitation, I decided
to try replacing the rivet. I drilled the rivet head off and gently
pushed the tail back up into the (springy) Pro-Seal inside, where it
remains. Am now intending to pump a bunch of Pro-Seal into the rivet
hole before replacing the tank rivet. I haven't worked with the
dreaded Pro-Seal before (didn't build the tanks) and have a couple
questions:


1) I have an (expensive but) unopened quart that has an expiration
date of 9/01/10. It's been stored in relatively cool temps. Do I dare
use it, or should I cough up the big bucks to get a fresh supply?

2) Any tips for measuring and mixing small batches? Per the can, I
gather the ratio is approx. 0.8 accelerator to 10 sealant, and per the
manual, it can be thinned with MEK if necessary.

3) My plan is to apply internal vacuum in the tank, and push as much
Pro-Seal as I can into the rivet hole from the outside using a small
suction cup. Any other ideas for methods to press it into a rivet
hole?

4) Per Wayne's earlier comments about not cracking the shop end, I'll
probably pull the new tank rivet by hand, after slobbering it with the
goop, of course.


I realize that pushing the rivet tail up into the existing Pro-Seal
carries the risk of opening more separation between sealant and metal,
but at this point it's really coming down to this tactic -- or cutting
football-sized access ports to redo the whole thing.


Ron
254R

PS - Sucking Loctite 609 into the seeps worked great on the left tank,
so it's still a viable method for others to start with.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Agreed
Still good several years after date on semkit or tin
Nig
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of craig
Sent: 17 June 2011 06:59
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Ron,

I was told by the makers that the date was important for certified work but
the quality of the Pro-seal wasn't bad out of date. Mine had been in 60
degrees or less but was 18 months out of date and I was told not to worry.
Use a food scale or something fairly accurate with small batches. Also, be
mindful of the open time; some of the stuff is 1/2 hour and it means it! ha

ha Good Luck. You're gonna love the stuff! Craig


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 12:53 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

The saga of my leaking right tank continues. For the worst remaining
rivet, neither Loctite 609 or Seal-All would do the trick when applied
with internal vacuum suction, so after lengthy cogitation, I decided
to try replacing the rivet. I drilled the rivet head off and gently
pushed the tail back up into the (springy) Pro-Seal inside, where it
remains. Am now intending to pump a bunch of Pro-Seal into the rivet
hole before replacing the tank rivet. I haven't worked with the
dreaded Pro-Seal before (didn't build the tanks) and have a couple
questions:


1) I have an (expensive but) unopened quart that has an expiration
date of 9/01/10. It's been stored in relatively cool temps. Do I dare
use it, or should I cough up the big bucks to get a fresh supply?

2) Any tips for measuring and mixing small batches? Per the can, I
gather the ratio is approx. 0.8 accelerator to 10 sealant, and per the
manual, it can be thinned with MEK if necessary.

3) My plan is to apply internal vacuum in the tank, and push as much
Pro-Seal as I can into the rivet hole from the outside using a small
suction cup. Any other ideas for methods to press it into a rivet
hole?

4) Per Wayne's earlier comments about not cracking the shop end, I'll
probably pull the new tank rivet by hand, after slobbering it with the
goop, of course.


I realize that pushing the rivet tail up into the existing Pro-Seal
carries the risk of opening more separation between sealant and metal,
but at this point it's really coming down to this tactic -- or cutting
football-sized access ports to redo the whole thing.


Ron
254R

PS - Sucking Loctite 609 into the seeps worked great on the left tank,
so it's still a viable method for others to start with.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for replies, guys. I didn't know about SemKits, but that may be
a way to go too.

Ron


On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 9:28 AM, N.Smith <admin@airnig.co.uk> wrote:

Agreed
Still good several years after date on semkit or tin
Nig
745E

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Or, go to a farm supply (horse) and they have plastic syringes of
various sizes. (any Vet would have them)
BTW, you can freeze the mixed stuff for a couple of weeks and it will
still be good. On the larger jobs we put our mix in little plastic dose
cups (Dollar Store) put them in the freezer right away and pull them out
one at a time as the job progresses. Takes all of the anxiety out of the
cure time.

Bob.


On 6/17/2011 8:43 AM, Garry Wright wrote:

Ron,

I think one way to get stuff in the hole is with an icing type squeeze
bottle from a kitchen store. A basting tool with a bulb on the end would
also work if it had a small enough tip.

Garry

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Ron Shannon<rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

The saga of my leaking right tank continues. For the worst remaining
rivet, neither Loctite 609 or Seal-All would do the trick when applied
with internal vacuum suction, so after lengthy cogitation, I decided
to try replacing the rivet. I drilled the rivet head off and gently
pushed the tail back up into the (springy) Pro-Seal inside, where it
remains. Am now intending to pump a bunch of Pro-Seal into the rivet
hole before replacing the tank rivet. I haven't worked with the
dreaded Pro-Seal before (didn't build the tanks) and have a couple
questions:


1) I have an (expensive but) unopened quart that has an expiration
date of 9/01/10. It's been stored in relatively cool temps. Do I dare
use it, or should I cough up the big bucks to get a fresh supply?

2) Any tips for measuring and mixing small batches? Per the can, I
gather the ratio is approx. 0.8 accelerator to 10 sealant, and per the
manual, it can be thinned with MEK if necessary.

3) My plan is to apply internal vacuum in the tank, and push as much
Pro-Seal as I can into the rivet hole from the outside using a small
suction cup. Any other ideas for methods to press it into a rivet
hole?

4) Per Wayne's earlier comments about not cracking the shop end, I'll
probably pull the new tank rivet by hand, after slobbering it with the
goop, of course.


I realize that pushing the rivet tail up into the existing Pro-Seal
carries the risk of opening more separation between sealant and metal,
but at this point it's really coming down to this tactic -- or cutting
football-sized access ports to redo the whole thing.


Ron
254R

PS - Sucking Loctite 609 into the seeps worked great on the left tank,
so it's still a viable method for others to start with.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Great advice -- thanks all around.

Gary, your story is fantastic. Several times I have imagined &
pondered such herculean efforts, but always concluded it couldn't
possibly work. Your success exhibits perseverance in the best
tradition of Rebel builders. If only there was a video of the _whole_
process! Including a complete audio record, of course. :-)

Ron



On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Gary Gustafson <gargus7@att.net> wrote:
[quote]
I had 2 tank leaks (rear edge) and I was able to seal them
with ProSeal by adding more Toluene to the mixture to make
it flow through a syringe. It was fairly liquid. Then I was
able to attach a plastic tube (with a coat hanger attached)
to the end of the syringe and snake it to the back edge of
the tank through the gas cap hole to the area that was
leaking. Took several tries, but finally got it sealed. No
leaks since in 1/2 year of operation.

The process was involved. First I marked the areas that were
leaking. Then I had to empty all the gas and take the wing
off and turn it upside down. With the help of a scope I was
able to identify how to get the tubing to the area of the
leaks and where to put the liquid ProSeal. Once the tube was
in place, I attached the syringe and pushed really hard to
get it to flow and once syringe was empty, I blew into the
tube to empty it of ProSeal. With the wing upside down the
liquid Proseal settled in the area of the leak, spread out
and eventually dried. One leak took two tries.

To check if leaks were sealed I used water. DO NOT USE WATER.
I compromised my capacitance fuel gauge and drained water
(small amount) from the tank for several months before and
after each flight

PS The ProSeal mixture was liquid enough to draw it up into
the Syringe. Tests prior to trying the stuff on the tank
proved to me that ProSeal mixed to be quite liquid still set
up very well and adhered well. I would advise you thinning
and testing before hand to satisfy yourself. It is a mess so
have some old

Agree with Ron ...That is a great story of perseverance. Also an
indicator of the importance of gravity when using proseal. Even unthinned
stuff will follow gravity in the first 3-4 hours.
-Ben

On 6/18/11 8:47 AM, "Gary Gustafson" <gargus7@att.net> wrote:

I had 2 tank leaks (rear edge) and I was able to seal them
with ProSeal by adding more Toluene to the mixture to make
it flow through a syringe. It was fairly liquid. Then I was
able to attach a plastic tube (with a coat hanger attached)
to the end of the syringe and snake it to the back edge of
the tank through the gas cap hole to the area that was
leaking. Took several tries, but finally got it sealed. No
leaks since in 1/2 year of operation.

The process was involved. First I marked the areas that were
leaking. Then I had to empty all the gas and take the wing
off and turn it upside down. With the help of a scope I was
able to identify how to get the tubing to the area of the
leaks and where to put the liquid ProSeal. Once the tube was
in place, I attached the syringe and pushed really hard to
get it to flow and once syringe was empty, I blew into the
tube to empty it of ProSeal. With the wing upside down the
liquid Proseal settled in the area of the leak, spread out
and eventually dried. One leak took two tries.

To check if leaks were sealed I used water. DO NOT USE WATER.
I compromised my capacitance fuel gauge and drained water
(small amount) from the tank for several months before and
after each flight

PS The ProSeal mixture was liquid enough to draw it up into
the Syringe. Tests prior to trying the stuff on the tank
proved to me that ProSeal mixed to be quite liquid still set
up very well and adhered well. I would advise you thinning
and testing before hand to satisfy yourself. It is a mess so
have some old on hand

Hope this helps


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 11:13 AM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues


I have found that getting the mixed stuff in a syringe is a problem.
It's way too thick to suck up like you would want to, so you're left
with trying to load it in with a spatula of some sort. If you haven't
worked with the stuff before....it is the stickiest substance on earth.

Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 07:42:06 -0700
From: rtpalmer@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Or, go to a farm supply (horse) and they have plastic syringes of
various sizes. (any Vet would have them)
BTW, you can freeze the mixed stuff for a couple of weeks and it will
still be good. On the larger jobs we put our mix in little plastic dose
cups (Dollar Store) put them in the freezer right away and pull them
out
one at a time as the job progresses. Takes all of the anxiety out of
the
cure time.

Bob.


On 6/17/2011 8:43 AM, Garry Wright wrote:

Ron,

I think one way to get stuff in the hole is with an icing type squeeze
bottle from a kitchen store. A basting tool with a bulb on the end

would

also work if it had a small enough tip.

Garry

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Ron Shannon<rshannon@cruzcom.com>

wrote:

applied

the

the

metal,

cutting

tank,

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

If video, some of it would have had to be bleeped out. LOL

The good thing is I do not have inspection plates that annoy me
on a nice painted wing.

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 1:25 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Great advice -- thanks all around.

Gary, your story is fantastic. Several times I have imagined &
pondered such herculean efforts, but always concluded it couldn't
possibly work. Your success exhibits perseverance in the best
tradition of Rebel builders. If only there was a video of the _whole_
process! Including a complete audio record, of course. :-)

Ron



On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Gary Gustafson <gargus7@att.net> wrote:
[quote]
I had 2 tank leaks (rear edge) and I was able to seal them
with ProSeal by adding more Toluene to the mixture to make
it flow through a syringe. It was fairly liquid. Then I was
able to attach a plastic tube (with a coat hanger attached)
to the end of the syringe and snake it to the back edge of
the tank through the gas cap hole to the area that was
leaking. Took several tries, but finally got it sealed. No
leaks since in 1/2 year of operation.

The process was involved. First I marked the areas that were
leaking. Then I had to empty all the gas and take the wing
off and turn it upside down. With the help of a scope I was
able to identify how to get the tubing to the area of the
leaks and where to put the liquid ProSeal. Once the tube was
in place, I attached the syringe and pushed really hard to
get it to flow and once syringe was empty, I blew into the
tube to empty it of ProSeal. With the wing upside down the
liquid Proseal settled in the area of the leak, spread out
and eventually dried. One leak took two tries.

To check if leaks were sealed I used water. DO NOT USE WATER.
I compromised my capacitance fuel gauge and drained water
(small amount) from the tank for several months before and
after each flight

PS The ProSeal mixture was liquid enough to draw it up into
the Syringe. Tests prior to trying the stuff on the tank
proved to me that ProSeal mixed to be quite liquid still set
up very well and adhered well. I would advise you thinning
and testing before hand to satisfy yourself. It is a mess so
have some old

I would like to know how to find small leaks. The wings have never
been put on the airplane, nor have they been filled with liquid. One
of them will hold 1/2 psi for several days, but the other leaks out
in about 20 minutes. I tried listening with a stethoscope at the
seams and the rivets, but no joy. I have squirted a soap solution on
all of the joints and rivet heads, but no bubbles show. I squirted
some freon into the tank, pressurized to 1/2 psi, and sniffed with a
freon detector, but I still couldn't find the leak. There is an area
at the joint between a rib, the top skin, and the rear bulkhead where
I suspect a leak, but no leaks were detected there. Any advice would
be very welcome.
Lynn Cole
LynnCole@foxvalley.net



On Jun 18, 2011, at 10:47 AM, Gary Gustafson wrote:

I had 2 tank leaks (rear edge) and I was able to seal them
with ProSeal by adding more Toluene to the mixture to make
it flow through a syringe. It was fairly liquid. Then I was
able to attach a plastic tube (with a coat hanger attached)
to the end of the syringe and snake it to the back edge of
the tank through the gas cap hole to the area that was
leaking. Took several tries, but finally got it sealed. No
leaks since in 1/2 year of operation.

The process was involved. First I marked the areas that were
leaking. Then I had to empty all the gas and take the wing
off and turn it upside down. With the help of a scope I was
able to identify how to get the tubing to the area of the
leaks and where to put the liquid ProSeal. Once the tube was
in place, I attached the syringe and pushed really hard to
get it to flow and once syringe was empty, I blew into the
tube to empty it of ProSeal. With the wing upside down the
liquid Proseal settled in the area of the leak, spread out
and eventually dried. One leak took two tries.

To check if leaks were sealed I used water. DO NOT USE WATER.
I compromised my capacitance fuel gauge and drained water
(small amount) from the tank for several months before and
after each flight

PS The ProSeal mixture was liquid enough to draw it up into
the Syringe. Tests prior to trying the stuff on the tank
proved to me that ProSeal mixed to be quite liquid still set
up very well and adhered well. I would advise you thinning
and testing before hand to satisfy yourself. It is a mess so
have some old on hand

Hope this helps


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf
Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 11:13 AM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues


I have found that getting the mixed stuff in a syringe is a problem.
It's way too thick to suck up like you would want to, so you're left
with trying to load it in with a spatula of some sort. If you haven't
worked with the stuff before....it is the stickiest substance on
earth.

Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 07:42:06 -0700
From: rtpalmer@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Or, go to a farm supply (horse) and they have plastic syringes of
various sizes. (any Vet would have them)
BTW, you can freeze the mixed stuff for a couple of weeks and it will
still be good. On the larger jobs we put our mix in little plastic
dose
cups (Dollar Store) put them in the freezer right away and pull
them out
one at a time as the job progresses. Takes all of the anxiety out
of the
cure time.

Bob.


On 6/17/2011 8:43 AM, Garry Wright wrote:

Ron,

I think one way to get stuff in the hole is with an icing type
squeeze
bottle from a kitchen store. A basting tool with a bulb on the end

would

also work if it had a small enough tip.

Garry

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Ron Shannon<rshannon@cruzcom.com>

wrote:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

You've certainly tried a lot of good ideas. I wonder -- only because
it's the kind of thing I'd forget -- did you check your plugs/plumbing
at the fuel output, drain, vent, etc.? Caps and plugs can be
deceivingly difficult to seal up tight.

Perhaps you could pressurize some cold gas [vapor] inside and use an
IR detector/viewer outside?

If that fails, I'm pretty sure Gary G., master of tank maneuvers, will
come up with something, including necessary incantations. ;-) Good
luck.

Ron


On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Lynn Cole <LynnCole@foxvalley.net> wrote:
[quote]I would like to know how to find small leaks.

Do _not _fill with water.
If you fill them with fuel any seepage will evaporate leaving the dye
behind as a witness.

Bob.

On 6/18/2011 5:09 PM, Lynn Cole wrote:

I would like to know how to find small leaks. The wings have never
been put on the airplane, nor have they been filled with liquid. One
of them will hold 1/2 psi for several days, but the other leaks out
in about 20 minutes. I tried listening with a stethoscope at the
seams and the rivets, but no joy. I have squirted a soap solution on
all of the joints and rivet heads, but no bubbles show. I squirted
some freon into the tank, pressurized to 1/2 psi, and sniffed with a
freon detector, but I still couldn't find the leak. There is an area
at the joint between a rib, the top skin, and the rear bulkhead where
I suspect a leak, but no leaks were detected there. Any advice would
be very welcome.
Lynn Cole
LynnCole@foxvalley.net



On Jun 18, 2011, at 10:47 AM, Gary Gustafson wrote:

I had 2 tank leaks (rear edge) and I was able to seal them
with ProSeal by adding more Toluene to the mixture to make
it flow through a syringe. It was fairly liquid. Then I was
able to attach a plastic tube (with a coat hanger attached)
to the end of the syringe and snake it to the back edge of
the tank through the gas cap hole to the area that was
leaking. Took several tries, but finally got it sealed. No
leaks since in 1/2 year of operation.

The process was involved. First I marked the areas that were
leaking. Then I had to empty all the gas and take the wing
off and turn it upside down. With the help of a scope I was
able to identify how to get the tubing to the area of the
leaks and where to put the liquid ProSeal. Once the tube was
in place, I attached the syringe and pushed really hard to
get it to flow and once syringe was empty, I blew into the
tube to empty it of ProSeal. With the wing upside down the
liquid Proseal settled in the area of the leak, spread out
and eventually dried. One leak took two tries.

To check if leaks were sealed I used water. DO NOT USE WATER.
I compromised my capacitance fuel gauge and drained water
(small amount) from the tank for several months before and
after each flight

PS The ProSeal mixture was liquid enough to draw it up into
the Syringe. Tests prior to trying the stuff on the tank
proved to me that ProSeal mixed to be quite liquid still set
up very well and adhered well. I would advise you thinning
and testing before hand to satisfy yourself. It is a mess so
have some old on hand

Hope this helps


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf
Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 11:13 AM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues


I have found that getting the mixed stuff in a syringe is a problem.
It's way too thick to suck up like you would want to, so you're left
with trying to load it in with a spatula of some sort. If you haven't
worked with the stuff before....it is the stickiest substance on
earth.

Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 07:42:06 -0700
From: rtpalmer@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Or, go to a farm supply (horse) and they have plastic syringes of
various sizes. (any Vet would have them)
BTW, you can freeze the mixed stuff for a couple of weeks and it will
still be good. On the larger jobs we put our mix in little plastic
dose
cups (Dollar Store) put them in the freezer right away and pull
them out
one at a time as the job progresses. Takes all of the anxiety out
of the
cure time.

Bob.


On 6/17/2011 8:43 AM, Garry Wright wrote:

would

wrote:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

If done the way my dad suggested with the dosage cups (flashback to cough syrup as a kid) in the freezer, I found it took the sweat out of pro-seal completely. When not on the clock you can slow down a little and relax, it will keep the mess down so much there will be hardly any cleanup. The first tank bottom we did was horrible and so messy there are still bits of pro-seal on the work bench. After putting it in small cups and keeping them in the deep freeze till we needed them, the job was a breeze. It went faster, wasn't frustrating and required little cleanup. We've had fuel in the tanks for several months now and haven't had any leaks, so it worked out pretty well.

P.S For applying the pro-seal get a few acid brushes and cut the bristles quite short, that's all you need. When it comes to "dipping" the rivet tails, just work some pro-seal along the side of the cup and roll the rivet tail through it, works like a charm and you can control how much gets applied easily. Also, acetone cleans up pro-seal very well when it's still wet.

Kirk
773E

From: rebaker@sc.rr.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 23:44:00 -0400

Pro Seal is much more than a tank sealant and a way to forever stain clothing. It is also a sophisticated method of determining how serious you are about building a wet wing aircraft.
Ralph Baker



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Lynn, I Applied a low air pressure to find my leaks when I was fixing the
quick build wings. To gage the pressure I taped a thin rubber glove to one
of the inboard fittings and used it's size to determine the leakage rate,
pressure inside etc. 2 psi could be enough pressure to fail the structure,
so that is why the glove and not a gage.

So apply the pressure let the temperature stabilize, observe the shrinkage
of the glove as a means of determining leakage. Use a soapy water solution
(I like Basic H) Look for bubbles, one suspect area is near the lift strut
attachment inside the skin at the front spar go in through the inspection
holes, flashlight and mirror may be necessary.

Repairs: any means of getting the Pro-Seal into the leak area is acceptable
I would not be comfortable with an external "Blob" of sealant. You may be
able to "Suck" some thinned (I use Toluol,) sealant into the tank. Or use
some of the other ideas posted on the site.

Good luck, patience is your friend it can take a number of tries.

Dick Wampach SR-108 N331RW



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Cole
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 5:10 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues


I would like to know how to find small leaks. The wings have never
been put on the airplane, nor have they been filled with liquid. One
of them will hold 1/2 psi for several days, but the other leaks out
in about 20 minutes. I tried listening with a stethoscope at the
seams and the rivets, but no joy. I have squirted a soap solution on
all of the joints and rivet heads, but no bubbles show. I squirted
some freon into the tank, pressurized to 1/2 psi, and sniffed with a
freon detector, but I still couldn't find the leak. There is an area
at the joint between a rib, the top skin, and the rear bulkhead where
I suspect a leak, but no leaks were detected there. Any advice would
be very welcome.
Lynn Cole
LynnCole@foxvalley.net





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------