The Murphy Builders Site

I have some brushable proseal coming (thanks Ken) and some PR-148
adhesion promoter. I will clean each tank through the center access
panel and then re-coat everything. My question is about surface prep.
The Proseal tech data sheets say to abraid first, then use solvents to
clear up oils (don't use paper towels but a cloth). The Murphy manual
says exactly the opposite, use solvents, then abraid, then wipe down. I
plan to follow the ProSeal data sheets unless someone can tell me that
Murphy is right on this.

Two small ones:
Why can't I use paper towels?
I plan to use MEK to soften up the existing proseal a little.

-
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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Bruce, the rebel manual says to MEK or Acetone, then abraid and then
wipe with a clean dry towel. Murphy also suggested to me that I might
soften the ProSeal up a little with light MEK, but I think that I will
rely on the abrasion and adhesion promoter to do that.
--
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Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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Hi Scott

I also lean towards the ProSeal method (roughen then degrease) as it is
difficult to keep the scotchbrite pad oil-free so it does not
re-contaminate the surface. Actually I guess I de-grease, roughen, then
de-grease again, most of the time.

I think the paper towel issue is one of leaving paper fibres and such
behind. Don't really know what else is in the paper towel that the
solvent might get. If you need rags, the commercial cleaning supply
places often sell large bags of white cotton washed T-shirt pieces for
fairly cheap.

The other thing is that I thought the idea was to minimize exposing the
Pro-seal to MEK. I would be inclined to just let the adhesion promoter
do its job on the existing pro-seal, unless the directions say something
else.

cheers
Ken

hibbs wrote:

I have some brushable proseal coming (thanks Ken) and some PR-148
adhesion promoter. I will clean each tank through the center access
panel and then re-coat everything. My question is about surface prep.
The Proseal tech data sheets say to abraid first, then use solvents to
clear up oils (don't use paper towels but a cloth). The Murphy manual
says exactly the opposite, use solvents, then abraid, then wipe down. I
plan to follow the ProSeal data sheets unless someone can tell me that
Murphy is right on this.

Two small ones:
Why can't I use paper towels?
I plan to use MEK to soften up the existing proseal a little.

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You can get special lintless paper wipes from auto supply shops. (made by
A-TORK) They are used for wiping down surfaces before painting. If you use
rags, keep in mind that laundry detergent contains softeners and often
silicon which will contaminate whatever you wipe with them. If you rinse a
surface with water, it should be distilled so you don't leave minerals
behind. Also chlorine in tap water can affect some alloys. I know they had
a problem building the SR71 because rinsing with chlorinated water made the
titanium brittle. (not likely a problem with 6061)


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Scott,

on the Proseal question; I believe paper towels leave pieces of toweling, as
they are used, through out the tank contaminating the Proseal. As for the
abrade first wipe second or wipe first abrade next, I really don't know why.
I would be tempted to follow the manufacturers recommendations. Perhaps
wiping with MEK leaves residue and washing with water does not. Didn't MAM
recommend washing with water and wiping out after abrading?

Bruce 357R
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Guys, (remember I am a student in this stuff...and not a builder yet...)
It seems that there is a WHOLE lot of mail on sealing up these tanks....It
sounds like it is a real bear, so why is there not a better solution ??

How about a blown plastic tank a'la Rans and Rotorway ? Or a rubber
bladder like C-210's and late Piper's...There must be a reason other than a
pound or two of additional polymers per side...?

Once again, I like fuel to stay where intended....and away from my tender
pink skin..Just wondering....(for months!)

Louis Young
www.justplanevideos.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 9:24 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: PR-148, PS-890-A-2 and preparation



Right on, Scott !!! You should have success with that approach !!

If there's any doubt about oil or other contamination from the
towels or rags, you could just use an air blast - several builders
have found that worked well.

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.---------------------------------------

At 04:54 PM 1/21/01 -0800, you wrote:

Bruce, the rebel manual says to MEK or Acetone, then abraid and then
wipe with a clean dry towel. Murphy also suggested to me that I might
soften the ProSeal up a little with light MEK, but I think that I will
rely on the abrasion and adhesion promoter to do that.
--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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Right on, Scott !!! You should have success with that approach !!

If there's any doubt about oil or other contamination from the
towels or rags, you could just use an air blast - several builders
have found that worked well.

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 04:54 PM 1/21/01 -0800, you wrote:

Bruce, the rebel manual says to MEK or Acetone, then abraid and then
wipe with a clean dry towel. Murphy also suggested to me that I might
soften the ProSeal up a little with light MEK, but I think that I will
rely on the abrasion and adhesion promoter to do that.
--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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Louis the early rebels had 3 plastic tanks in each wing with an aluminum
fitting at the back and a large interconnect hose. Almost everyone of them
leaked at the joint between the plastic and the aluminum. The wet wing is a
good solution and even though it's tough on the rebel wing with ribs and
stringers in the tank to get a seal it can be done.
Drew

At 09:41 PM 1/21/01 -0600, you wrote:

Guys, (remember I am a student in this stuff...and not a builder yet...)
It seems that there is a WHOLE lot of mail on sealing up these tanks....It
sounds like it is a real bear, so why is there not a better solution ??

How about a blown plastic tank a'la Rans and Rotorway ? Or a rubber
bladder like C-210's and late Piper's...There must be a reason other than a
pound or two of additional polymers per side...?

Once again, I like fuel to stay where intended....and away from my tender
pink skin..Just wondering....(for months!)

Louis Young
www.justplanevideos.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 9:24 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: PR-148, PS-890-A-2 and preparation



Right on, Scott !!! You should have success with that approach !!

If there's any doubt about oil or other contamination from the
towels or rags, you could just use an air blast - several builders
have found that worked well.

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.---------------------------------------

At 04:54 PM 1/21/01 -0800, you wrote:

Bruce, the rebel manual says to MEK or Acetone, then abraid and then
wipe with a clean dry towel. Murphy also suggested to me that I might
soften the ProSeal up a little with light MEK, but I think that I will
rely on the abrasion and adhesion promoter to do that.
--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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Scott,

I'm not that far along with the wing construction yet, but I'm curious how
you will be able to reach into each bay to apply the brushable Pro-Seal?
Don't the main ribs within the tank have baffles which will prevent your
access? Or does each bay have an access panel?

R Hoffman #687R
Eugene, OR USA


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Roger, I put access panels in both my center bays. I drilled out the
baffles and will put them back in once I am finished with the ProSeal.
I am going to move slowly because the Proseal and adhesion promoter have
a 3-4 week lead time!


--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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I agree, Louis, about the problems with the wet tanks a lot of builders seem
to be having. You would think MAM would come up with a better solution. But
then there is builders like Brian who brushed the whole inside of their tanks
with Proseal and call it a no brainier. Ken, The original builder of my kit
and who had built the wings prior to me (he did a very nice job too) says he
took his time with the tanks and thought he'd have no problems. Voila!!!... a
leak. He was frustrated.

Bruce 357R
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Wet wings, with Pro-Seal, are THE way to go - EVERYBODY uses
this method now. Commercial airliners, all military aircraft,
most homebuilts - including all the Van's RV series. It is the
lightest, easiest way to get durable, reliable fuel tanks.
( Funny - you never hear grumbles from RV builders, although they
use the same materials and methods ..... maybe they're not allowed
to complain ! ;-`) )

It seems that the tanks are the only big thing that scares
Rebel builders ...... although we seem to hear far fewer horror
stories now, since the system has been pretty well standardized to:
wipe with Metal-Sol, scuff with ScotchBrite, BLOW clean (NO more
solvents), then trowel on the Pro-Seal while the aluminum is still
shiny. The current construction method lets you put on the top tank
skin & test the tank while you can still get at ALL parts of it to
seal leaks - if you do this, you shouldn't run into huge leaks
after you've added the wing skins. It is certainly MUCH easier
to fix leaks BEFORE the wing skin goes on !!

One little suggestion - when you make the metal plates to
seal the stringers, don't make the 'J' shaped cut TOO TIGHT - you
want some Pro-Seal to ooze out around the stringer. Also, rivet
the plate on one side of the rib, squeeze in Pro-Seal, then add
a plate to the other side of the rib....

One of the old problems was using clecoes with oil on them
- pretty much solved by keeping one set in Metal-Sol or MEK.

If you get the metal clean, and don't scrimp on the Pro-Seal,
you should be OK - Good Luck !!

.....bobp

----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 08:56 PM 1/22/01 EST, you wrote:

I agree, Louis, about the problems with the wet tanks a lot of builders seem
to be having. You would think MAM would come up with a better solution. But
then there is builders like Brian who brushed the whole inside of their tanks
with Proseal and call it a no brainier. Ken, The original builder of my kit
and who had built the wings prior to me (he did a very nice job too) says he
took his time with the tanks and thought he'd have no problems. Voila!!!... a
leak. He was frustrated.

Bruce 357R
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Bob,

Do RV builders have stringers going thru their tanks?

Bruce 357R

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I dunno ..... but they still have ribs & end plates to seal !
And they have to wrestle with bucking rivets !!

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 10:05 PM 1/22/01 EST, you wrote:

Bob,

Do RV builders have stringers going thru their tanks?

Bruce 357R

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On 22 Jan 2001, at 21:18, Bob Patterson wrote:

homebuilts - including all the Van's RV series. It is the lightest,
easiest way to get durable, reliable fuel tanks. ( Funny - you never
hear grumbles from RV builders, although they use the same materials

Don't complain too much. The Velocity is _much_ harder to seal.
The fuel is in the strakes (The thick delta part of the wing near the
fusalage.) and the strakes are made from two large, unwieldy
fiberglass and foam skins. There are ribs and bulkheads that run
every which way that have to be made and then trimmed to fit
between the skins, then sealed with strips of fiberglass and epoxy.
You may have fuel appearing in one place and the real leak is three
feet away.

wipe with Metal-Sol, scuff with ScotchBrite, BLOW clean (NO more

One caution I've heard is about blowing clean. Since parts are held
together by fiberglass and epoxy tapes instead of rivits, surface
contamination is a serious problem. Air from an air compressor
may have oil mist in it. Don't know how serious that would be with
Proseal.

---
David Parrish

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