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[rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Having a fin offset in the wrong direction will definitely be a big
problem. I can't imagine why you, or your next-owner buyer, if any,
would even want to consider having an airplane with the wrong offset,
because at the very least, you'd have to compensate with lot of
balancing trim (if even possible) creating a lot of unnecessary,
unwanted drag, and significantly reducing the performance of the
airplane. If anybody on the list thinks that having the completely
wrong offset is not a big (bad) deal, I'll eat my hat, or something
else inedible. :-)

Given that, your question sort of begs the elephant-in-the-living-room
question that may have a lot of people scratching their heads like me,
namely, how could a desire to change to an engine with a truly
non-std. rotation, at this stage in the project, be important enough
to justify having to re-do such a lot of work?

My three cents.

Ron
254R


On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Roland Kriening <kriening@rogers.com> wrote:
So I have a bit of a dilemma. When building I had intentions of putting a
Lyco on the front, so installed the tail fin with a 3 degree deflection. I
have now decided to install an engine with a prop that spins in the opposite
direction. So you see the dilemma. My preference is to not relocate the tail
fin, but if the consensus is that the 3 degree offset will cause significant
handling issues, I guess I have some work to do.

Any thoughts ?


Roland
R56

(first year at Sun n Fun... great event.)

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Roland Kriening

[rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Post by Roland Kriening » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Thanks Ron,

I haven't attached the Horz. stabs yet, only the vert fin, so the fix should
be pretty straight forward although I will have to drill out a bunch of
rivets. I knew it was a bit of "no brainer" question when I asked it, but
thought I would throw it out there anyway, just in case someone had an "uber
brilliant" idea I had not thought of. In hind sight I should have left the
vert stab at 0' instead of the offset. Lesson learned. My plan is to put a
doubler on both the back and front of the bulkhead to take the new holes. As
the doubler has plenty of rivets into the bulkhead I think I should be OK.

Roland
R56



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 6:44 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Having a fin offset in the wrong direction will definitely be a big
problem. I can't imagine why you, or your next-owner buyer, if any,
would even want to consider having an airplane with the wrong offset,
because at the very least, you'd have to compensate with lot of
balancing trim (if even possible) creating a lot of unnecessary,
unwanted drag, and significantly reducing the performance of the
airplane. If anybody on the list thinks that having the completely
wrong offset is not a big (bad) deal, I'll eat my hat, or something
else inedible. :-)

Given that, your question sort of begs the elephant-in-the-living-room
question that may have a lot of people scratching their heads like me,
namely, how could a desire to change to an engine with a truly
non-std. rotation, at this stage in the project, be important enough
to justify having to re-do such a lot of work?

My three cents.

Ron
254R


On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Roland Kriening <kriening@rogers.com> wrote:
So I have a bit of a dilemma. When building I had intentions of putting a
Lyco on the front, so installed the tail fin with a 3 degree deflection. I
have now decided to install an engine with a prop that spins in the
opposite
direction. So you see the dilemma. My preference is to not relocate the
tail
fin, but if the consensus is that the 3 degree offset will cause
significant
handling issues, I guess I have some work to do.

Any thoughts ?


Roland
R56

(first year at Sun n Fun... great event.)

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Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Keep in mind that since you built it with the fin offset..... the FUS-30
will be longer on one side....as the tail post is skewed to one side (not
perpendicular to the fus centre line). Drill the nine front spar attach
rivets out and see how much twist it's gonna put on the tail post before
getting tooooo creative with a "fix". You should be able to move it the 1/2
inch to get it to zero. If you offest 3/4" like the newer manuals call
out.... good luck!

Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Kriening" <kriening@rogers.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Thanks Ron,

I haven't attached the Horz. stabs yet, only the vert fin, so the fix
should
be pretty straight forward although I will have to drill out a bunch of
rivets. I knew it was a bit of "no brainer" question when I asked it, but
thought I would throw it out there anyway, just in case someone had an
"uber
brilliant" idea I had not thought of. In hind sight I should have left the
vert stab at 0' instead of the offset. Lesson learned. My plan is to put a
doubler on both the back and front of the bulkhead to take the new holes.
As
the doubler has plenty of rivets into the bulkhead I think I should be OK.

Roland
R56



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 6:44 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Having a fin offset in the wrong direction will definitely be a big
problem. I can't imagine why you, or your next-owner buyer, if any,
would even want to consider having an airplane with the wrong offset,
because at the very least, you'd have to compensate with lot of
balancing trim (if even possible) creating a lot of unnecessary,
unwanted drag, and significantly reducing the performance of the
airplane. If anybody on the list thinks that having the completely
wrong offset is not a big (bad) deal, I'll eat my hat, or something
else inedible. :-)

Given that, your question sort of begs the elephant-in-the-living-room
question that may have a lot of people scratching their heads like me,
namely, how could a desire to change to an engine with a truly
non-std. rotation, at this stage in the project, be important enough
to justify having to re-do such a lot of work?

My three cents.

Ron
254R


On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Roland Kriening <kriening@rogers.com>
wrote:
So I have a bit of a dilemma. When building I had intentions of putting a
Lyco on the front, so installed the tail fin with a 3 degree deflection.
I
have now decided to install an engine with a prop that spins in the
opposite
direction. So you see the dilemma. My preference is to not relocate the
tail
fin, but if the consensus is that the 3 degree offset will cause
significant
handling issues, I guess I have some work to do.

Any thoughts ?


Roland
R56

(first year at Sun n Fun... great event.)

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drewjan

[rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Post by drewjan » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

I don( think there's any choice but to install your fin where it needs to be. What engine are you going to use?
Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Kriening <kriening@rogers.com>
Sender: mike.davis@dcsol.com
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 07:35:33
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Reply-to: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle


So I have a bit of a dilemma. When building I had intentions of putting a
Lyco on the front, so installed the tail fin with a 3 degree deflection. I
have now decided to install an engine with a prop that spins in the opposite
direction. So you see the dilemma. My preference is to not relocate the tail
fin, but if the consensus is that the 3 degree offset will cause significant
handling issues, I guess I have some work to do.

Any thoughts ?


Roland
R56

(first year at Sun n Fun... great event.)




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Bob Patterson

[rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Post by Bob Patterson » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Hi Roland !

I definitely would not offset the opposite way - just put it in
the center, as most builders have been doing for years. Should
be possible without toooo much effort....

Whatever offset you use is only good for one speed &
power setting anyway, so it's easier to leave in the middle.
Also a lot easier for fairings...

What engine did you choose that turns wrong way ???
Hopefully not an auto conversion ...

--

......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.


On April 7, 2011 07:52:24 pm Roland Kriening wrote:
Thanks Ron,

I haven't attached the Horz. stabs yet, only the vert fin, so the fix
should be pretty straight forward although I will have to drill out a
bunch of rivets. I knew it was a bit of "no brainer" question when I asked
it, but thought I would throw it out there anyway, just in case someone
had an "uber brilliant" idea I had not thought of. In hind sight I should
have left the vert stab at 0' instead of the offset. Lesson learned. My
plan is to put a doubler on both the back and front of the bulkhead to
take the new holes. As the doubler has plenty of rivets into the bulkhead
I think I should be OK.

Roland
R56



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 6:44 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Having a fin offset in the wrong direction will definitely be a big
problem. I can't imagine why you, or your next-owner buyer, if any,
would even want to consider having an airplane with the wrong offset,
because at the very least, you'd have to compensate with lot of
balancing trim (if even possible) creating a lot of unnecessary,
unwanted drag, and significantly reducing the performance of the
airplane. If anybody on the list thinks that having the completely
wrong offset is not a big (bad) deal, I'll eat my hat, or something
else inedible. :-)

Given that, your question sort of begs the elephant-in-the-living-room
question that may have a lot of people scratching their heads like me,
namely, how could a desire to change to an engine with a truly
non-std. rotation, at this stage in the project, be important enough
to justify having to re-do such a lot of work?

My three cents.

Ron
254R

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Roland Kriening <kriening@rogers.com> wrote:
So I have a bit of a dilemma. When building I had intentions of putting a
Lyco on the front, so installed the tail fin with a 3 degree deflection.
I have now decided to install an engine with a prop that spins in the
opposite
direction. So you see the dilemma. My preference is to not relocate the
tail
fin, but if the consensus is that the 3 degree offset will cause
significant
handling issues, I guess I have some work to do.

Any thoughts ?


Roland
R56

(first year at Sun n Fun... great event.)


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Roland Kriening

[rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Post by Roland Kriening » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

The engine of choice is a Viking Honda 110. And yes I know that there are
those of you who balk at auto conversions or anything other than the
standard Lyco, but this is an "experimental aircraft" so to stay true to
form I am venturing into the innovative side of the building process. At
this point the engine is on order, and I am fairly confident in my choice. I
will keep everyone updated with my progress and flight characteristics when
I get there, hopefully next year. I will post pics when I get the engine in
late summer.

Roland
R56


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 11:10 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle


Hi Roland !

I definitely would not offset the opposite way - just put it in
the center, as most builders have been doing for years. Should
be possible without toooo much effort....

Whatever offset you use is only good for one speed &
power setting anyway, so it's easier to leave in the middle.
Also a lot easier for fairings...

What engine did you choose that turns wrong way ???
Hopefully not an auto conversion ...

--

......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.


On April 7, 2011 07:52:24 pm Roland Kriening wrote:
Thanks Ron,

I haven't attached the Horz. stabs yet, only the vert fin, so the fix
should be pretty straight forward although I will have to drill out a
bunch of rivets. I knew it was a bit of "no brainer" question when I asked
it, but thought I would throw it out there anyway, just in case someone
had an "uber brilliant" idea I had not thought of. In hind sight I should
have left the vert stab at 0' instead of the offset. Lesson learned. My
plan is to put a doubler on both the back and front of the bulkhead to
take the new holes. As the doubler has plenty of rivets into the bulkhead
I think I should be OK.

Roland
R56



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 6:44 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Having a fin offset in the wrong direction will definitely be a big
problem. I can't imagine why you, or your next-owner buyer, if any,
would even want to consider having an airplane with the wrong offset,
because at the very least, you'd have to compensate with lot of
balancing trim (if even possible) creating a lot of unnecessary,
unwanted drag, and significantly reducing the performance of the
airplane. If anybody on the list thinks that having the completely
wrong offset is not a big (bad) deal, I'll eat my hat, or something
else inedible. :-)

Given that, your question sort of begs the elephant-in-the-living-room
question that may have a lot of people scratching their heads like me,
namely, how could a desire to change to an engine with a truly
non-std. rotation, at this stage in the project, be important enough
to justify having to re-do such a lot of work?

My three cents.

Ron
254R

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Roland Kriening <kriening@rogers.com>
wrote:
So I have a bit of a dilemma. When building I had intentions of putting
a
Lyco on the front, so installed the tail fin with a 3 degree deflection.
I have now decided to install an engine with a prop that spins in the
opposite
direction. So you see the dilemma. My preference is to not relocate the
tail
fin, but if the consensus is that the 3 degree offset will cause
significant
handling issues, I guess I have some work to do.

Any thoughts ?


Roland
R56

(first year at Sun n Fun... great event.)


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Roland Kriening

[rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Post by Roland Kriening » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Thanks Wayne... my thoughts as well. That is my task for today - to see how
much play I have when the rivets are out and then go from there.

R



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 8:02 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Keep in mind that since you built it with the fin offset..... the FUS-30
will be longer on one side....as the tail post is skewed to one side (not
perpendicular to the fus centre line). Drill the nine front spar attach
rivets out and see how much twist it's gonna put on the tail post before
getting tooooo creative with a "fix". You should be able to move it the 1/2
inch to get it to zero. If you offest 3/4" like the newer manuals call
out.... good luck!

Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Kriening" <kriening@rogers.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Thanks Ron,

I haven't attached the Horz. stabs yet, only the vert fin, so the fix
should
be pretty straight forward although I will have to drill out a bunch of
rivets. I knew it was a bit of "no brainer" question when I asked it, but
thought I would throw it out there anyway, just in case someone had an
"uber
brilliant" idea I had not thought of. In hind sight I should have left the
vert stab at 0' instead of the offset. Lesson learned. My plan is to put a
doubler on both the back and front of the bulkhead to take the new holes.
As
the doubler has plenty of rivets into the bulkhead I think I should be OK.

Roland
R56



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 6:44 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Having a fin offset in the wrong direction will definitely be a big
problem. I can't imagine why you, or your next-owner buyer, if any,
would even want to consider having an airplane with the wrong offset,
because at the very least, you'd have to compensate with lot of
balancing trim (if even possible) creating a lot of unnecessary,
unwanted drag, and significantly reducing the performance of the
airplane. If anybody on the list thinks that having the completely
wrong offset is not a big (bad) deal, I'll eat my hat, or something
else inedible. :-)

Given that, your question sort of begs the elephant-in-the-living-room
question that may have a lot of people scratching their heads like me,
namely, how could a desire to change to an engine with a truly
non-std. rotation, at this stage in the project, be important enough
to justify having to re-do such a lot of work?

My three cents.

Ron
254R


On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Roland Kriening <kriening@rogers.com>
wrote:
So I have a bit of a dilemma. When building I had intentions of putting a
Lyco on the front, so installed the tail fin with a 3 degree deflection.
I
have now decided to install an engine with a prop that spins in the
opposite
direction. So you see the dilemma. My preference is to not relocate the
tail
fin, but if the consensus is that the 3 degree offset will cause
significant
handling issues, I guess I have some work to do.

Any thoughts ?


Roland
R56

(first year at Sun n Fun... great event.)

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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Tail Fin Angle

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Roland, I've also been keeping an eye on development of the Viking,
and look forward to seeing how it works for you. As someone who is
happy he chose an engine that, so far as I know, is only the second
example on a Rebel so far, I applaud and support your innovation.

Get that fin to neutral, and go for it! :)

Ron

http://n2545mr.com



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