The Murphy Builders Site

I should mention that the engine is a M14P

--- On Thu, 1/20/11, jack korycki <jackkorycki@yahoo.ca> wrote:


From: jack korycki <jackkorycki@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fw: Batteries for Murphy Moose
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Received: Thursday, January 20, 2011, 8:46 PM


















I have a Moose with a 24 volt starter and 24 volt alternator. How many cold cranking amps are required for that starter. Is one 24 volt battery the way to go or two 12 volt batteries. I am putting the battery just behind the cargo area in the tail cone. How heavy can I

I'd be using two 12volts in series and center tapping for 12volts in the
panel and all accessories. Cheaper and easier to run 12volt panel
equipment/lights/strobes etc than going with 24volt. Rotate your two
batteries every year and you should be golden. 12volt batteries are also
much cheaper than 24's.

----- Original Message -----
From: "jack korycki" <jackkorycki@yahoo.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:46 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fw: Batteries for Murphy Moose

I have a Moose with a 24 volt starter and 24 volt alternator. How many
cold cranking amps are required for that starter. Is one 24 volt battery
the way to go or two 12 volt batteries. I am putting the battery just
behind the cargo area in the tail cone. How heavy can I go there?
Jack



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I agree w/ Wayne; two 12's rather than one 24.

I STRONGLY suggest you put the battery(s) as far FORWARD as possible--do
NOT put them back in/behind your baggage area! Yes, the Moose is
nose-heavy when you're flying solo. But the purpose of the Moose is to
have a plane you can load with all you want to take on trips. If you have
the battery in the back you are starting the load process behind the
weight curve. I can send you a W&B spreadsheet that you can play with to
see the adverse effect having that battery weight back there has on your
ability to load other stuff on a trip.

When flying solo, I just put a couple of big bricks (wrapped in blankets)
back in the baggage area.




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Hi Ted: You are absolutely correct with your appreciation regarding the
location of the batteries in a "Moose", which allows you to carry more
weight in the rear. I have the air start system on the M14P, and this works
wonderfully, so the batteries do not have to be so large with a good
alternator, just enough to sustain loads from instruments and lights; with
the batteries up firewall forward, the aircraft becomes so nose heavy that
your better not have an engine out situation as this will cause a very noisy
crash (flying solo or two up front only). Normal landings would have to be
done with plenty of power on the engine so as to perform flare; a couple of
bricks (15 to 20 pounds?) is definitely not sufficient tail weight on the
rear cabin area; you would have to put around 150 pounds, and probably that
would not be enough counterweight. And whatever you put in back (bricks,
sand bags, etc) it would have to be very well tied up and secure; this
weight should not be allowed to wander around. I guess this sounds like 'old
wive's tale', but it's good to go over it, remember, so as not to forget,
regards, Eduardo


El 21/01/11 10:42, "ted@vafm.org" <ted@vafm.org> escribi

I have a side question:

What about W&B on a Lycoming 540 Super Rebel? Anyone know if folks have been putting their batteries in the tail or on the firewall?

Thanks, -Jason

--- On Fri, 1/21/11, ted@vafm.org <ted@vafm.org> wrote:

[quote]From: ted@vafm.org <ted@vafm.org>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fw: Batteries for Murphy Moose
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 6:42 AM
I agree w/ Wayne; two 12's rather
than one 24.

I STRONGLY suggest you put the battery(s) as far FORWARD as
possible--do
NOT put them back in/behind your baggage area!

Out local CAP unit puts our C185 on wheel skips every winter and we put 150 pounds of sand bags in the baggage area to make the CG manageable for 1 & 2 up flying... but when we do need to load it up it's easy enough to unload the sand bags.



On Jan 21, 2011, at 6:48 AM, Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa <lopeco.eduardo@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Ted: You are absolutely correct with your appreciation regarding the
location of the batteries in a "Moose", which allows you to carry more
weight in the rear. I have the air start system on the M14P, and this works
wonderfully, so the batteries do not have to be so large with a good
alternator, just enough to sustain loads from instruments and lights; with
the batteries up firewall forward, the aircraft becomes so nose heavy that
your better not have an engine out situation as this will cause a very noisy
crash (flying solo or two up front only). Normal landings would have to be
done with plenty of power on the engine so as to perform flare; a couple of
bricks (15 to 20 pounds?) is definitely not sufficient tail weight on the
rear cabin area; you would have to put around 150 pounds, and probably that
would not be enough counterweight. And whatever you put in back (bricks,
sand bags, etc) it would have to be very well tied up and secure; this
weight should not be allowed to wander around. I guess this sounds like 'old
wive's tale', but it's good to go over it, remember, so as not to forget,
regards, Eduardo


El 21/01/11 10:42, "ted@vafm.org" <ted@vafm.org> escribió:

I agree w/ Wayne; two 12's rather than one 24.

I STRONGLY suggest you put the battery(s) as far FORWARD as possible--do
NOT put them back in/behind your baggage area! Yes, the Moose is
nose-heavy when you're flying solo. But the purpose of the Moose is to
have a plane you can load with all you want to take on trips. If you have
the battery in the back you are starting the load process behind the
weight curve. I can send you a W&B spreadsheet that you can play with to
see the adverse effect having that battery weight back there has on your
ability to load other stuff on a trip.

When flying solo, I just put a couple of big bricks (wrapped in blankets)
back in the baggage area.




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A couple of CASES of OIL would be appropriate, and more
useful ! ;-) :-)

Well secured against the aft wall ...

--

......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson


Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.


On January 21, 2011 09:42:54 am ted@vafm.org wrote:

I agree w/ Wayne; two 12's rather than one 24.

I STRONGLY suggest you put the battery(s) as far FORWARD as possible--do
NOT put them back in/behind your baggage area! Yes, the Moose is
nose-heavy when you're flying solo. But the purpose of the Moose is to
have a plane you can load with all you want to take on trips. If you have
the battery in the back you are starting the load process behind the
weight curve. I can send you a W&B spreadsheet that you can play with to
see the adverse effect having that battery weight back there has on your
ability to load other stuff on a trip.

When flying solo, I just put a couple of big bricks (wrapped in blankets)
back in the baggage area.

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I like the sand bag idea because when I get to where I need to load up I can
just empty the sand out and bring my bags back to use over again, (I sure
would not want to leave the oil unless I could put money in my pocket in
exchange) :)

On 1/21/2011 8:26 AM, bobp@prosumers.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> A couple of CASES of OIL would be appropriate, and more
-> useful ! ;-) :-)
->
-> Well secured against the aft wall ...
->
-> --
->
-> ......bobp
-> bobp@prosumers.ca
-> bobp@pattersys.com
-> http://www.Pattersys.com
-> http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson
->
->
-> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
-> and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
-> Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
-> responsibility of the reader.
->
->
-> On January 21, 2011 09:42:54 am ted@vafm.org wrote:
-> > I agree w/ Wayne; two 12's rather than one 24.
-> >
-> > I STRONGLY suggest you put the battery(s) as far FORWARD as possible-
-do
-> > NOT put them back in/behind your baggage area! Yes, the Moose is
-> > nose-heavy when you're flying solo. But the purpose of the Moose is to
-> > have a plane you can load with all you want to take on trips. If you
have
-> > the battery in the back you are starting the load process behind the
-> > weight curve. I can send you a W&B spreadsheet that you can play
with to
-> > see the adverse effect having that battery weight back there has on
your
-> > ability to load other stuff on a trip.
-> >
-> > When flying solo, I just put a couple of big bricks (wrapped in blankets)
-> > back in the baggage area.
-> >




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I'd bring bags of water. Just as easy to unload and reuse the bags, plus it is survival gear, and you can always reverse the process if you go in heavy and come out light.

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:48:09 -0900
From: wayne.pederson@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fw: Batteries for Murphy Moose
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

I like the sand bag idea because when I get to where I need to load up I can
just empty the sand out and bring my bags back to use over again, (I sure
would not want to leave the oil unless I could put money in my pocket in
exchange) :)

On 1/21/2011 8:26 AM, bobp@prosumers.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> A couple of CASES of OIL would be appropriate, and more
-> useful ! ;-) :-)
->
-> Well secured against the aft wall ...
->
-> --
->
-> ......bobp
-> bobp@prosumers.ca
-> bobp@pattersys.com
-> http://www.Pattersys.com
-> http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson
->
->
-> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
-> and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
-> Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
-> responsibility of the reader.
->
->
-> On January 21, 2011 09:42:54 am ted@vafm.org wrote:
-> > I agree w/ Wayne; two 12's rather than one 24.
-> >
-> > I STRONGLY suggest you put the battery(s) as far FORWARD as possible-
-do
-> > NOT put them back in/behind your baggage area! Yes, the Moose is
-> > nose-heavy when you're flying solo. But the purpose of the Moose is to
-> > have a plane you can load with all you want to take on trips. If you
have
-> > the battery in the back you are starting the load process behind the
-> > weight curve. I can send you a W&B spreadsheet that you can play
with to
-> > see the adverse effect having that battery weight back there has on
your
-> > ability to load other stuff on a trip.
-> >
-> > When flying solo, I just put a couple of big bricks (wrapped in blankets)
-> > back in the baggage area.
-> >




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You missed the point .... if you have an M-14, you'll NEED the
oil, and it will be gone after a long trip ! ;-) (big grin !)

We filled the Moose to the roof, and still carried that case of
oil, no matter what ... and a big tool box ... still not near
the aft limit ...

--

......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson


Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.


On January 21, 2011 12:48:09 pm wayne.pederson@dcsol.com wrote:

I like the sand bag idea because when I get to where I need to load up I
can just empty the sand out and bring my bags back to use over again, (I
sure would not want to leave the oil unless I could put money in my pocket
in exchange) :)

On 1/21/2011 8:26 AM, bobp@prosumers.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> A couple of CASES of OIL would be appropriate, and more
-> useful ! ;-) :-)
->
-> Well secured against the aft wall ...
->
-> --
->
-> ......bobp
-> bobp@prosumers.ca
-> bobp@pattersys.com
-> http://www.Pattersys.com
-> http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson
->
->
-> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
-> and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or
persons. -> Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is
totally the -> responsibility of the reader.
->
->
-> On January 21, 2011 09:42:54 am ted@vafm.org wrote:
-> > I agree w/ Wayne; two 12's rather than one 24.
-> >
-> > I STRONGLY suggest you put the battery(s) as far FORWARD as possible-
-do
-> > NOT put them back in/behind your baggage area! Yes, the Moose is
-> > nose-heavy when you're flying solo. But the purpose of the Moose is
to -> > have a plane you can load with all you want to take on trips. If
you have
-> > the battery in the back you are starting the load process behind the
-> > weight curve. I can send you a W&B spreadsheet that you can play
with to
-> > see the adverse effect having that battery weight back there has on
your
-> > ability to load other stuff on a trip.
-> >
-> > When flying solo, I just put a couple of big bricks (wrapped in
blankets) -> > back in the baggage area.
-> >

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I'm all for the Oil (for the Moose) AND the water + other permanent survival pack articles (for the people). This takes care of the airplanes needs, people survival needs and weight and balance.

Ross
SR203

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob Patterson
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 1:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fw: Batteries for Murphy Moose


You missed the point .... if you have an M-14, you'll NEED the
oil, and it will be gone after a long trip ! ;-) (big grin !)

We filled the Moose to the roof, and still carried that case of
oil, no matter what ... and a big tool box ... still not near
the aft limit ...

--

......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson


Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.


On January 21, 2011 12:48:09 pm wayne.pederson@dcsol.com wrote:

I like the sand bag idea because when I get to where I need to load up I
can just empty the sand out and bring my bags back to use over again, (I
sure would not want to leave the oil unless I could put money in my pocket
in exchange) :)

On 1/21/2011 8:26 AM, bobp@prosumers.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> A couple of CASES of OIL would be appropriate, and more
-> useful ! ;-) :-)
->
-> Well secured against the aft wall ...
->
-> --
->
-> ......bobp
-> bobp@prosumers.ca
-> bobp@pattersys.com
-> http://www.Pattersys.com
-> http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson
->
->
-> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
-> and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or
persons. -> Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is
totally the -> responsibility of the reader.
->
->
-> On January 21, 2011 09:42:54 am ted@vafm.org wrote:
-> > I agree w/ Wayne; two 12's rather than one 24.
-> >
-> > I STRONGLY suggest you put the battery(s) as far FORWARD as possible-
-do
-> > NOT put them back in/behind your baggage area! Yes, the Moose is
-> > nose-heavy when you're flying solo. But the purpose of the Moose is
to -> > have a plane you can load with all you want to take on trips. If
you have
-> > the battery in the back you are starting the load process behind the
-> > weight curve. I can send you a W&B spreadsheet that you can play
with to
-> > see the adverse effect having that battery weight back there has on
your
-> > ability to load other stuff on a trip.
-> >
-> > When flying solo, I just put a couple of big bricks (wrapped in
blankets) -> > back in the baggage area.
-> >

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Thanks guys
I'm leaning towards one 42 lb 24 volt battery and a case of oil. All of my lighting and avionics are 24 volt.
Jack

--- On Fri, 1/21/11, Miller, Ross W <Ross.Miller@gdit.com> wrote:


From: Miller, Ross W <Ross.Miller@gdit.com>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fw: Batteries for Murphy Moose
To: "rebel-builders@dcsol.com" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Received: Friday, January 21, 2011, 4:24 PM


I'm all for the Oil (for the Moose) AND the water + other permanent survival pack articles (for the people).

Hi Jason,

I've installed an Odyssey PC925 battery just behind the baggage door of my
Super Rebel. I have a IO-540-G1D5 angle valve engine that is heavier than
O-540 and IO-540 parallel valve engines. I looked at the W&B of a flying S/R
with the same engine; he has the battery behind the baggage door. I also ran
the W&B numbers for several battery positions and decided that the rear
position will work best for me.

Tim
SR060


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Beall" <super_rebel131@yahoo.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fw: Batteries for Murphy Moose

I have a side question:

What about W&B on a Lycoming 540 Super Rebel? Anyone know if folks have
been putting their batteries in the tail or on the firewall?

Thanks, -Jason

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I am putting a pair of the Odyssey 14.4 Volt PC680 dry cell Batteries @ 15.4
pounds each, in my Moose under the pilots seat, wired in series as a 28 Volt
system. This is close to the C.G. of the airplane. If the weight and
Balance needs adjusting, I will have options to move them.
I have a 28 V to 14 V converter for the 14 volt systems such as 14 volt cig
lighter, Dynon AOA/Pitot heat, noise canceling head sets and Ray Allen trim
servos and other plug in gadgets. I have a center tap between the batteries
on a 5 AMP fuse, for the few 14 Volt systems that to me are essential and
need a fail safe back up in the event of a converter malfunction.

I am still trying to keep the entire floor un-obstructed to the empennage
for maintenance access, sleeping bag use, or ground storage of junk! So far
that is working out by mounting some of the electronic boxes under the
seats. All wires & control cables are under the floor until one bay forward
of the horizontal stabilizer. I feel this is important to me. As we all
age it gets harder to crawl around in those usually un-accessible places!

Dick Wampach SR-108 Lyc-O-540 N331RW



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jason
Beall
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:01 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fw: Batteries for Murphy Moose


I have a side question:

What about W&B on a Lycoming 540 Super Rebel? Anyone know if folks have been
putting their batteries in the tail or on the firewall?

Thanks, -Jason

--- On Fri, 1/21/11, ted@vafm.org <ted@vafm.org> wrote:

[quote]From: ted@vafm.org <ted@vafm.org>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fw: Batteries for Murphy Moose
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 6:42 AM
I agree w/ Wayne; two 12's rather
than one 24.

I STRONGLY suggest you put the battery(s) as far FORWARD as
possible--do NOT put them back in/behind your baggage area!