The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm**

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Your following message has been delivered to the 181 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 20:15:53 on 5 Jan 2001.
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If I remember right Bob, yours is set at about 0.6 to 0.7 degrees (versus
the called out 1.0) on XWI. When I set up Howard's I mounted his at 0.6
degrees after finding I flew mine (with the stab set at 1.0) with slight
(about 2 or 3 degrees) up elevator all the time, when I still had the O-235
installed. Howard's flies perfectly level in cruise without any trim
required (both on wheels and 1800 amphibs!) His is O-320-E2D, 40 lb
Sensenich Prop, 2" spacer, Firewall NOT cut back, Full panel, etc. Pretty
much the same as in your case aye!

It wouldn't be as easy to do on the Rebel, with it's two separate
stabilizers, but if building an Elite or Super Rebel I would be tempted to
look at how to make the stab itself "trimable", similar to an old C182. Less
drag is induced trimming the whole unit, than when you use a trim tab to
deflect the elevator up, to hold an attitude!

Take Care,
Wayne G.O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: cowlings

My latest Rebel has an O-320, with the firewall NOT moved

clip, clip,

This Rebel flies hands-off, with neutral position of the trim tab, and LANDS
LIKE A DREAM ! I suspect the stab is

mounted at a slightly different angle from standard, but not
significantly.
.....bobp

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm**

Thanks for confirming my suspicions ... It sure works great !
Reducing the stab angle to .7 degrees might be something other builders
<might> want to consider, if they are not cutting back the firewall,
and have heavy engines ...

I seem to recall that the Elite & Super Rebel both fly pretty
much trim neutral - maybe the angles were already adjusted for the
heavier engines.

The only thing I want to improve about the flying characteristics
is that the stall occurs at a much higher speed than it does on the
912-powered lightweight Rebel. That is to be expected with a much heavier
airplane but - the Dave Fife Hoerner wing tips and Angus McKenzie's
STOL kit should more than fix THAT !! :-)

....bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 08:10 PM 1/5/01 -0500, you wrote:

If I remember right Bob, yours is set at about 0.6 to 0.7 degrees (versus
the called out 1.0) on XWI. When I set up Howard's I mounted his at 0.6
degrees after finding I flew mine (with the stab set at 1.0) with slight
(about 2 or 3 degrees) up elevator all the time, when I still had the O-235
installed. Howard's flies perfectly level in cruise without any trim
required (both on wheels and 1800 amphibs!) His is O-320-E2D, 40 lb
Sensenich Prop, 2" spacer, Firewall NOT cut back, Full panel, etc. Pretty
much the same as in your case aye!

It wouldn't be as easy to do on the Rebel, with it's two separate
stabilizers, but if building an Elite or Super Rebel I would be tempted to
look at how to make the stab itself "trimable", similar to an old C182. Less
drag is induced trimming the whole unit, than when you use a trim tab to
deflect the elevator up, to hold an attitude!

Take Care,
Wayne G.O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: cowlings

My latest Rebel has an O-320, with the firewall NOT moved
clip, clip,

This Rebel flies hands-off, with neutral position of the trim tab, and LANDS
LIKE A DREAM ! I suspect the stab is
mounted at a slightly different angle from standard, but not
significantly.
.....bobp

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

Contributors' page at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/contributors.htm
Visit the book store at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/book_store.htm
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/archives.htm
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm**

Hi Terry !

I'm posting this to the list, as others will likely want to
know, too.

You will have to ask Wayne, as he did the mod. on my latest
Rebel. I suspect he just moved the position of the holes when he
first drilled them, already knowing that he wanted a slightly smaller
angle.

Wayne .. ?????

....bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 07:31 PM 1/6/01 -0500, you wrote:

Bob, I recently joined the list and am amazed at the correspondence on a
daily basis.

How did you physically make the stab angle of incidence change? Did you
replace the bulkhead or otherwise reinforce it in order to make the hole
changes for the stab attach?

On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks for confirming my suspicions ... It sure works great !
Reducing the stab angle to .7 degrees might be something other builders
<might> want to consider, if they are not cutting back the firewall,
and have heavy engines ...

I seem to recall that the Elite & Super Rebel both fly pretty
much trim neutral - maybe the angles were already adjusted for the
heavier engines.

The only thing I want to improve about the flying characteristics
is that the stall occurs at a much higher speed than it does on the
912-powered lightweight Rebel. That is to be expected with a much heavier
airplane but - the Dave Fife Hoerner wing tips and Angus McKenzie's
STOL kit should more than fix THAT !! :-)

....bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 08:10 PM 1/5/01 -0500, you wrote:
If I remember right Bob, yours is set at about 0.6 to 0.7 degrees (versus
the called out 1.0) on XWI. When I set up Howard's I mounted his at 0.6
degrees after finding I flew mine (with the stab set at 1.0) with slight
(about 2 or 3 degrees) up elevator all the time, when I still had the O-235
installed. Howard's flies perfectly level in cruise without any trim
required (both on wheels and 1800 amphibs!) His is O-320-E2D, 40 lb
Sensenich Prop, 2" spacer, Firewall NOT cut back, Full panel, etc. Pretty
much the same as in your case aye!

It wouldn't be as easy to do on the Rebel, with it's two separate
stabilizers, but if building an Elite or Super Rebel I would be tempted to
look at how to make the stab itself "trimable", similar to an old C182. Less
drag is induced trimming the whole unit, than when you use a trim tab to
deflect the elevator up, to hold an attitude!

Take Care,
Wayne G.O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: cowlings

clip, clip,

This Rebel flies hands-off, with neutral position of the trim tab, and LANDS
LIKE A DREAM ! I suspect the stab is *--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*
Contributors' page at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/contributors.htm
Visit the book store at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/book_store.htm
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/archives.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

Contributors' page at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/contributors.htm
Visit the book store at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/book_store.htm
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/archives.htm

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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Contributors' page at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/contributors.htm
Visit the book store at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/book_store.htm
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/archives.htm
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm**

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Your following message has been delivered to the 181 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 23:14:29 on 6 Jan 2001.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I did the "reconstruction" of XWI, before Bob acquired it from me, I
knew what I wanted for Stab incidence (0.6 degrees). Upon checking it's
original mounting position I found it was approx 0.7 degrees and called it
close enough to save me making new fin to stab fairings (there's that
laziness again!). The stab was probably positioned at 0.7 by "fluke" using
the stupid level and block of wood method, OR I should really say by
mistake using the block of wood and level, as the original builder was
shooting for 1.0 degree.

I always assemble the Rebels I build COMPLETELY (fairings, wing tips and
all) on my table, with the fuselage perpendicular to the length of the
table, prior to installing landing gear so that I am guaranteed that the
fuselage bottom is level in all directions for accurate mounting of both the
wings and stabilizers dihedral and incidence'. You can see a picture of this
on my site in the services section. Click on the aircraft construction
hyperlink

If you are doing the original stab mounting, you can put it anywhere you
want. Just drill the holes and install the anchor nuts. If remounting after
a previous placement you will need to install a doubler plate (would suggest
minimum .050) on the forward side of the attach bulkhead, as the hole is not
going to move very far and most likely will be partially in the old hole. I
use a Digital Pro Smart level to set everything on the Rebel, as when using
a normal bubble level you can be off by almost 0.5 and still have the bubble
between the lines! For example, when I redid XWI and went to use the
original right wing lift strut I found that the right wings dihedral was set
at 2.5 degrees and the left was 1.2 degrees. Thus I fabricated a new lift
strut to make them both the same at 1.2! This was likely, originally, caused
by using the block of wood and the level thing again and trying to mount the
wings after the gear was installed. If you use a digital level (and don't
have the room to assemble them like I do) you can install the wings
anywhere, even on the side of a hill, as you can differentiate between the
cabin floor angle and the wings dihedral to make sure it's right before you
drill. The same goes for the stab, as you can compare the cabin bottom to
the stab angle and take the difference. Just make sure you have the
incidence up towards the nose, and not down, in comparison to the cabin
floor.

Just one last thing! If you choose to venture outside the MAM's 1.0 degree
as spelled out in the manual, don't blame me if it doesn't work for you!
They ALL fly different pending C of G, placement of the wing fittings (that
dictate angle of incidence of the wings), etc. All I can say is that it has
worked for two nose heavy Rebels so far and if I wasn't too "lazy" (read
don't have time, because I spend too much time on this list!!!) to have to
make and paint new fairings for my Rebel I would move it from it's 1.0
degree mounting to that magic 0.6, as I have to run a bit of up elevator on
mine in cruise.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Cc: "Terrence A Sack" <tasack@gcfn.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: Stabilizer Setup

Hi Terry !

I'm posting this to the list, as others will likely want to
know, too.

You will have to ask Wayne, as he did the mod. on my latest
Rebel. I suspect he just moved the position of the holes when he
first drilled them, already knowing that he wanted a slightly smaller
angle.

Wayne .. ?????

....bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 07:31 PM 1/6/01 -0500, you wrote:
Bob, I recently joined the list and am amazed at the correspondence on a
daily basis.

How did you physically make the stab angle of incidence change? Did you
replace the bulkhead or otherwise reinforce it in order to make the hole
changes for the stab attach?

On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks for confirming my suspicions ... It sure works great !
Reducing the stab angle to .7 degrees might be something other builders
<might> want to consider, if they are not cutting back the firewall,
and have heavy engines ...

I seem to recall that the Elite & Super Rebel both fly pretty
much trim neutral - maybe the angles were already adjusted for the
heavier engines.

The only thing I want to improve about the flying

characteristics

is that the stall occurs at a much higher speed than it does on the
912-powered lightweight Rebel. That is to be expected with a much

heavier

airplane but - the Dave Fife Hoerner wing tips and Angus McKenzie's
STOL kit should more than fix THAT !! :-)

....bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 08:10 PM 1/5/01 -0500, you wrote:

(versus

0.6

slight

O-235

Pretty

tempted to

C182. Less

to

LANDS

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------*
Contributors' page at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/contributors.htm
Visit the book store at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/book_store.htm
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/archives.htm

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

Contributors' page at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/contributors.htm
Visit the book store at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/book_store.htm
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/archives.htm

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Contributors' page at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/contributors.htm
Visit the book store at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/book_store.htm
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/archives.htm
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