The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:34 pm**

Rick,

Hey neighbor! Welcome back. Now that I'm building a Moose, let's get together and compare notes. I'm going with the M-14 and going to keep her at Bisbee too.

Call or e-mail direct.

Ross Miller
520-266-3176
ross.miller@gdit.com
Hereford,AZ

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Byers [mailto:rabyers@msn.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 07:34 AM
To: Rebel Builders Group <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Hi All,

I'm new to the email group. I started a Super Rebel a few years ago, purchased the Moose Upgrade and had some down time from the building process. Plan to start up again soon and am still undecided on the M14-P or O-540 engine.
MAM has told me that I can complete the fuselage and that the Firewall will be built the same up to the engine mounting.

I was hoping to get some feedback from anyone flying Moose with O-540's and M14's on the pros and cons of each. I've read about the peculiarities of the M14 series engines as far as how they differ from the Opposed Engines for ground operations. I guess what I'm looking for is the actual performance numbers: Rate of climb, cruise speed, fuel burn. I've seen the advertised numbers but was just looking for some confirmation.

I currently fly a C-120 out of Bisbee, AZ where the field elevation is 4780 ft. and it's not uncommon to have density altitudes over 8000 ft. in the warm months. Some days I'm lucky to see 100 fpm climb rate. This is where I'm wondering about the O-540 with a gross wt airplane.

I've read about a Moose accident where a brake over centered and locked up. MAM hasn't responded to my question on that subject yet. Saw some posts by builders who didn't install the RH side brake mechanism. Is it standard practice to not install the right seat slave hardware?

Thank you.
Any answers & help is greatly appreciated.

Rick Byers
Hereford, AZ

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:34 pm**

Hello Rick,

I have 400+ hours on an M-14P Moose operating at 5,000' in the Denver area.
No problems with gross weight takeoffs even on very warm days. Cruise is
120 mph at 15.5gph. Anyone that advertises faster cruise than that is full
of !@#@%. I've flown side-by-side with another Moose w/ M-14 and confirmed
speed/gph. Climb perf is about 600 to 800 fpm at medium weight on maybe 60
to 70 degree day at my altitude. I've had it up to 16,500' several times
and it's still able to climb.

O-540's are definitely faster by far.

M-14P's are sexy engines. Parts are easy to get and far, FAR less expensive
than O-540. One can get an M-14P (overhauled one) for low $20k and new one
for $25K+ if you look around. To my knowledge, O-540's are way more
expensive than that.

MAM never released a service bulletin on the huge safety problem of the
right-brake interconnect. Go figure. I just took my interconnect bar
off/out. Other builders have done a variety of mods to enable right-side
brakes (Cessna mod, custom, etc). I don't miss not having right-side brakes
at all.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Byers
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 5:35 AM
To: Rebel Builders Group
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Hi All,

I'm new to the email group. I started a Super Rebel a few years ago,
purchased the Moose Upgrade and had some down time from the building
process. Plan to start up again soon and am still undecided on the M14-P or
O-540 engine.
MAM has told me that I can complete the fuselage and that the Firewall will
be built the same up to the engine mounting.

I was hoping to get some feedback from anyone flying Moose with O-540's and
M14's on the pros and cons of each. I've read about the peculiarities of the
M14 series engines as far as how they differ from the Opposed Engines for
ground operations. I guess what I'm looking for is the actual performance
numbers: Rate of climb, cruise speed, fuel burn. I've seen the advertised
numbers but was just looking for some confirmation.

I currently fly a C-120 out of Bisbee, AZ where the field elevation is 4780
ft. and it's not uncommon to have density altitudes over 8000 ft. in the
warm months. Some days I'm lucky to see 100 fpm climb rate. This is where
I'm wondering about the O-540 with a gross wt airplane.

I've read about a Moose accident where a brake over centered and locked up.
MAM hasn't responded to my question on that subject yet. Saw some posts by
builders who didn't install the RH side brake mechanism. Is it standard
practice to not install the right seat slave hardware?

Thank you.
Any answers & help is greatly appreciated.

Rick Byers
Hereford, AZ

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:34 pm**

Can anyone share a little more information on the right side brake safety concern. I own a SR2500. this is the first I heard of it and would like to know what the issue is, how to resolve, etc.

Thanks,
Tom Tonner

From: ted@vafm.org
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 10:15:47 -0700

Hello Rick,

I have 400+ hours on an M-14P Moose operating at 5,000' in the Denver area.
No problems with gross weight takeoffs even on very warm days. Cruise is
120 mph at 15.5gph. Anyone that advertises faster cruise than that is full
of !@#@%. I've flown side-by-side with another Moose w/ M-14 and confirmed
speed/gph. Climb perf is about 600 to 800 fpm at medium weight on maybe 60
to 70 degree day at my altitude. I've had it up to 16,500' several times
and it's still able to climb.

O-540's are definitely faster by far.

M-14P's are sexy engines. Parts are easy to get and far, FAR less expensive
than O-540. One can get an M-14P (overhauled one) for low $20k and new one
for $25K+ if you look around. To my knowledge, O-540's are way more
expensive than that.

MAM never released a service bulletin on the huge safety problem of the
right-brake interconnect. Go figure. I just took my interconnect bar
off/out. Other builders have done a variety of mods to enable right-side
brakes (Cessna mod, custom, etc). I don't miss not having right-side brakes
at all.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Byers
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 5:35 AM
To: Rebel Builders Group
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Hi All,

I'm new to the email group. I started a Super Rebel a few years ago,
purchased the Moose Upgrade and had some down time from the building
process. Plan to start up again soon and am still undecided on the M14-P or
O-540 engine.
MAM has told me that I can complete the fuselage and that the Firewall will
be built the same up to the engine mounting.

I was hoping to get some feedback from anyone flying Moose with O-540's and
M14's on the pros and cons of each. I've read about the peculiarities of the
M14 series engines as far as how they differ from the Opposed Engines for
ground operations. I guess what I'm looking for is the actual performance
numbers: Rate of climb, cruise speed, fuel burn. I've seen the advertised
numbers but was just looking for some confirmation.

I currently fly a C-120 out of Bisbee, AZ where the field elevation is 4780
ft. and it's not uncommon to have density altitudes over 8000 ft. in the
warm months. Some days I'm lucky to see 100 fpm climb rate. This is where
I'm wondering about the O-540 with a gross wt airplane.

I've read about a Moose accident where a brake over centered and locked up.
MAM hasn't responded to my question on that subject yet. Saw some posts by
builders who didn't install the RH side brake mechanism. Is it standard
practice to not install the right seat slave hardware?

Thank you.
Any answers & help is greatly appreciated.

Rick Byers
Hereford, AZ

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:34 pm**

Ted,

Thanks.

What are the best sources for M14P engines and parts? I've heard of Gesoco on the east coast and M14 Inc in Kingman, AZ.

Rick Byers
----- Original Message -----
From: Ted Waltman<mailto:ted@vafm.org>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com<mailto:rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Hello Rick,

I have 400+ hours on an M-14P Moose operating at 5,000' in the Denver area.
No problems with gross weight takeoffs even on very warm days. Cruise is
120 mph at 15.5gph. Anyone that advertises faster cruise than that is full
of !@#@%<mailto:!@#@%>. I've flown side-by-side with another Moose w/ M-14 and confirmed
speed/gph. Climb perf is about 600 to 800 fpm at medium weight on maybe 60
to 70 degree day at my altitude. I've had it up to 16,500' several times
and it's still able to climb.

O-540's are definitely faster by far.

M-14P's are sexy engines. Parts are easy to get and far, FAR less expensive
than O-540. One can get an M-14P (overhauled one) for low $20k and new one
for $25K+ if you look around. To my knowledge, O-540's are way more
expensive than that.

MAM never released a service bulletin on the huge safety problem of the
right-brake interconnect. Go figure. I just took my interconnect bar
off/out. Other builders have done a variety of mods to enable right-side
brakes (Cessna mod, custom, etc). I don't miss not having right-side brakes
at all.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com<mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com> [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Byers
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 5:35 AM
To: Rebel Builders Group
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Hi All,

I'm new to the email group. I started a Super Rebel a few years ago,
purchased the Moose Upgrade and had some down time from the building
process. Plan to start up again soon and am still undecided on the M14-P or
O-540 engine.
MAM has told me that I can complete the fuselage and that the Firewall will
be built the same up to the engine mounting.

I was hoping to get some feedback from anyone flying Moose with O-540's and
M14's on the pros and cons of each. I've read about the peculiarities of the
M14 series engines as far as how they differ from the Opposed Engines for
ground operations. I guess what I'm looking for is the actual performance
numbers: Rate of climb, cruise speed, fuel burn. I've seen the advertised
numbers but was just looking for some confirmation.

I currently fly a C-120 out of Bisbee, AZ where the field elevation is 4780
ft. and it's not uncommon to have density altitudes over 8000 ft. in the
warm months. Some days I'm lucky to see 100 fpm climb rate. This is where
I'm wondering about the O-540 with a gross wt airplane.

I've read about a Moose accident where a brake over centered and locked up.
MAM hasn't responded to my question on that subject yet. Saw some posts by
builders who didn't install the RH side brake mechanism. Is it standard
practice to not install the right seat slave hardware?

Thank you.
Any answers & help is greatly appreciated.

Rick Byers
Hereford, AZ

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:34 pm**

Yes, Carl & Jill at M-14P in Arizona and Chip (?) Coy at Gesoco are probably
the two biggest ones. Guy in Louisiana too--Steve Culp (on Ebay).

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Byers
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:51 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Ted,

Thanks.

What are the best sources for M14P engines and parts? I've heard of Gesoco
on the east coast and M14 Inc in Kingman, AZ.

Rick Byers
----- Original Message -----
From: Ted Waltman<mailto:ted@vafm.org>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com<mailto:rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Hello Rick,

I have 400+ hours on an M-14P Moose operating at 5,000' in the Denver
area.
No problems with gross weight takeoffs even on very warm days. Cruise is
120 mph at 15.5gph. Anyone that advertises faster cruise than that is
full
of !@#@%<mailto:!@#@%>. I've flown side-by-side with another Moose w/
M-14 and confirmed
speed/gph. Climb perf is about 600 to 800 fpm at medium weight on maybe
60
to 70 degree day at my altitude. I've had it up to 16,500' several times
and it's still able to climb.

O-540's are definitely faster by far.

M-14P's are sexy engines. Parts are easy to get and far, FAR less
expensive
than O-540. One can get an M-14P (overhauled one) for low $20k and new
one
for $25K+ if you look around. To my knowledge, O-540's are way more
expensive than that.

MAM never released a service bulletin on the huge safety problem of the
right-brake interconnect. Go figure. I just took my interconnect bar
off/out. Other builders have done a variety of mods to enable right-side
brakes (Cessna mod, custom, etc). I don't miss not having right-side
brakes
at all.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com<mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com>
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Byers
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 5:35 AM
To: Rebel Builders Group
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Hi All,

I'm new to the email group. I started a Super Rebel a few years ago,
purchased the Moose Upgrade and had some down time from the building
process. Plan to start up again soon and am still undecided on the M14-P
or
O-540 engine.
MAM has told me that I can complete the fuselage and that the Firewall
will
be built the same up to the engine mounting.

I was hoping to get some feedback from anyone flying Moose with O-540's
and
M14's on the pros and cons of each. I've read about the peculiarities of
the
M14 series engines as far as how they differ from the Opposed Engines for
ground operations. I guess what I'm looking for is the actual performance
numbers: Rate of climb, cruise speed, fuel burn. I've seen the advertised
numbers but was just looking for some confirmation.

I currently fly a C-120 out of Bisbee, AZ where the field elevation is
4780
ft. and it's not uncommon to have density altitudes over 8000 ft. in the
warm months. Some days I'm lucky to see 100 fpm climb rate. This is where
I'm wondering about the O-540 with a gross wt airplane.

I've read about a Moose accident where a brake over centered and locked
up.
MAM hasn't responded to my question on that subject yet. Saw some posts by
builders who didn't install the RH side brake mechanism. Is it standard
practice to not install the right seat slave hardware?

Thank you.
Any answers & help is greatly appreciated.

Rick Byers
Hereford, AZ

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:34 pm**

Ted,

Are you still planning to come down to AZ this month?

Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ted Waltman
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Yes, Carl & Jill at M-14P in Arizona and Chip (?) Coy at Gesoco are probably
the two biggest ones. Guy in Louisiana too--Steve Culp (on Ebay).

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Byers
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:51 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Ted,

Thanks.

What are the best sources for M14P engines and parts? I've heard of Gesoco
on the east coast and M14 Inc in Kingman, AZ.

Rick Byers
----- Original Message -----
From: Ted Waltman<mailto:ted@vafm.org>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com<mailto:rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Hello Rick,

I have 400+ hours on an M-14P Moose operating at 5,000' in the Denver
area.
No problems with gross weight takeoffs even on very warm days. Cruise is
120 mph at 15.5gph. Anyone that advertises faster cruise than that is
full
of !@#@%<mailto:!@#@%>. I've flown side-by-side with another Moose w/
M-14 and confirmed
speed/gph. Climb perf is about 600 to 800 fpm at medium weight on maybe
60
to 70 degree day at my altitude. I've had it up to 16,500' several times
and it's still able to climb.

O-540's are definitely faster by far.

M-14P's are sexy engines. Parts are easy to get and far, FAR less
expensive
than O-540. One can get an M-14P (overhauled one) for low $20k and new
one
for $25K+ if you look around. To my knowledge, O-540's are way more
expensive than that.

MAM never released a service bulletin on the huge safety problem of the
right-brake interconnect. Go figure. I just took my interconnect bar
off/out. Other builders have done a variety of mods to enable right-side
brakes (Cessna mod, custom, etc). I don't miss not having right-side
brakes
at all.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com<mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com>
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Byers
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 5:35 AM
To: Rebel Builders Group
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Hi All,

I'm new to the email group. I started a Super Rebel a few years ago,
purchased the Moose Upgrade and had some down time from the building
process. Plan to start up again soon and am still undecided on the M14-P
or
O-540 engine.
MAM has told me that I can complete the fuselage and that the Firewall
will
be built the same up to the engine mounting.

I was hoping to get some feedback from anyone flying Moose with O-540's
and
M14's on the pros and cons of each. I've read about the peculiarities of
the
M14 series engines as far as how they differ from the Opposed Engines for
ground operations. I guess what I'm looking for is the actual performance
numbers: Rate of climb, cruise speed, fuel burn. I've seen the advertised
numbers but was just looking for some confirmation.

I currently fly a C-120 out of Bisbee, AZ where the field elevation is
4780
ft. and it's not uncommon to have density altitudes over 8000 ft. in the
warm months. Some days I'm lucky to see 100 fpm climb rate. This is where
I'm wondering about the O-540 with a gross wt airplane.

I've read about a Moose accident where a brake over centered and locked
up.
MAM hasn't responded to my question on that subject yet. Saw some posts by
builders who didn't install the RH side brake mechanism. Is it standard
practice to not install the right seat slave hardware?

Thank you.
Any answers & help is greatly appreciated.

Rick Byers
Hereford, AZ

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:34 pm**

Hi Rick: I will have an M14P, 360 HP engine for sale in the next 6 months;
I'm removing mine with around 260 hours since new (I'm installing a PT6
turbine from Aerotek) and this is a brief description of what is included in
the engine itself: it has NGK spark plugs (not the ancient Russian ones)
with the modern silicone high tension cables plus a complete set of spare
plugs, a Performance Airflow injection system which is much safer in case of
icing conditions ( and the original carburetor I still have put away), plus
the following: a three blade MTV9 prop and spinner, exhaust system with two
heating muffs by Kimball Ent., oil system by Kimball and shut off valve,
pneumatic start system, engine mount for the Moose built by Kimball Ent.,
complete cowling with the Sukhoi diaphragm style cowl flap, an extra engine
cylinder with valves, extra magneto, extra fuel pump, large oil recovery
electric pump, electric fuel pump cluster proper for this engine, Slick
shower of sparks starting system (this is absolutely necessary), plus
something else I'm sure, but being a bolt on installation for anyone who may
be installing the engine on a Moose will save a lot of time, money and
effort. I haven't made up my mind about the final price, but it will be
reasonable. This engine and propeller have been treated with the utmost
care, performed all its maintenance, only used the Phillips 66 multigrade
oil. The engine itself is considered extremely safe and dependable, and it's
very powerful with its internal supercharger even during operation in hot
humid conditions. If anyone is interested to be delivered sometime in July,
2011, please let me know and I'll contact you directly. Regards, Eduardo

-----Mensaje original----
De: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] En nombre de Rick
Byers
Enviado el: martes, 11 de enero de 2011 11:51 a.m.
Para: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Asunto: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Ted,

Thanks.

What are the best sources for M14P engines and parts? I've heard of Gesoco
on the east coast and M14 Inc in Kingman, AZ.

Rick Byers
----- Original Message -----
From: Ted Waltman<mailto:ted@vafm.org>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com<mailto:rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Hello Rick,

I have 400+ hours on an M-14P Moose operating at 5,000' in the Denver
area.
No problems with gross weight takeoffs even on very warm days. Cruise is
120 mph at 15.5gph. Anyone that advertises faster cruise than that is
full
of !@#@%<mailto:!@#@%>. I've flown side-by-side with another Moose w/
M-14 and confirmed
speed/gph. Climb perf is about 600 to 800 fpm at medium weight on maybe
60
to 70 degree day at my altitude. I've had it up to 16,500' several times
and it's still able to climb.

O-540's are definitely faster by far.

M-14P's are sexy engines. Parts are easy to get and far, FAR less
expensive
than O-540. One can get an M-14P (overhauled one) for low $20k and new
one
for $25K+ if you look around. To my knowledge, O-540's are way more
expensive than that.

MAM never released a service bulletin on the huge safety problem of the
right-brake interconnect. Go figure. I just took my interconnect bar
off/out. Other builders have done a variety of mods to enable right-side
brakes (Cessna mod, custom, etc). I don't miss not having right-side
brakes
at all.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com<mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com>
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Byers
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 5:35 AM
To: Rebel Builders Group
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose engine choice

Hi All,

I'm new to the email group. I started a Super Rebel a few years ago,
purchased the Moose Upgrade and had some down time from the building
process. Plan to start up again soon and am still undecided on the M14-P
or
O-540 engine.
MAM has told me that I can complete the fuselage and that the Firewall
will
be built the same up to the engine mounting.

I was hoping to get some feedback from anyone flying Moose with O-540's
and
M14's on the pros and cons of each. I've read about the peculiarities of
the
M14 series engines as far as how they differ from the Opposed Engines for
ground operations. I guess what I'm looking for is the actual performance
numbers: Rate of climb, cruise speed, fuel burn. I've seen the advertised
numbers but was just looking for some confirmation.

I currently fly a C-120 out of Bisbee, AZ where the field elevation is
4780
ft. and it's not uncommon to have density altitudes over 8000 ft. in the
warm months. Some days I'm lucky to see 100 fpm climb rate. This is where
I'm wondering about the O-540 with a gross wt airplane.

I've read about a Moose accident where a brake over centered and locked
up.
MAM hasn't responded to my question on that subject yet. Saw some posts by
builders who didn't install the RH side brake mechanism. Is it standard
practice to not install the right seat slave hardware?

Thank you.
Any answers & help is greatly appreciated.

Rick Byers
Hereford, AZ

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