The Murphy Builders Site

There was a discussion here recently about what might happen if you fly
amphibs on the water in near freezing weather. Well, one of the guys here,
put that to the test yesterday.



It was a very nice clear day here, but upper air very cold, and surface
temps just below or near freezing. He did a flight over one of the local
lakes here, but did not land. When he got back, he landed on the Fraser,
with the intention of driving up the ramp at Pitt Meadows. However, the
water froze the front gear channels and he had trouble getting the gear
down. He taxied around for a while on the water, kept trying, and finally
got it loose and put the gear down. When he got up the ramp, he said there
was still streaks of ice on the floats. Needless to say, he departed Pitt
Meadows on the runway, and kept the gear down until he got back to Langley.



My theory is that when he was flying, the air temps were well below
freezing. Then when he landed, the water splashing up at the bows quickly
froze in the front gear well with the very cold metal.



I had thought of possibly going flying yesterday, too, but with the cold
temps, decided against it. Probably a very good decision, as I would have
landed at Harrison, then might have been stuck in the air trying to get the
gear down after coming back to Langley.



I have flown near freezing temps before in the winter, with no problems,
but
not quite this cold, and temps definitely above freezing at the surface. I
remember the gear being stiff to move up and down, but not stuck. Always
good to learn from other's experiences, though, so will be sure to keep a
good safety margin before I go flying on the water in the winter again.



Happy New Year, everyone.



Walter





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There was a discussion here recently about what might happen if you fly
amphibs on the water in near freezing weather. Well, one of the guys here,
put that to the test yesterday.



It was a very nice clear day here, but upper air very cold, and surface
temps just below or near freezing. He did a flight over one of the local
lakes here, but did not land. When he got back, he landed on the Fraser,
with the intention of driving up the ramp at Pitt Meadows. However, the
water froze the front gear channels and he had trouble getting the gear
down. He taxied around for a while on the water, kept trying, and finally
got it loose and put the gear down. When he got up the ramp, he said there
was still streaks of ice on the floats. Needless to say, he departed Pitt
Meadows on the runway, and kept the gear down until he got back to Langley.



My theory is that when he was flying, the air temps were well below
freezing. Then when he landed, the water splashing up at the bows quickly
froze in the front gear well with the very cold metal.



I had thought of possibly going flying yesterday, too, but with the cold
temps, decided against it. Probably a very good decision, as I would have
landed at Harrison, then might have been stuck in the air trying to get the
gear down after coming back to Langley.



I have flown near freezing temps before in the winter, with no problems, but
not quite this cold, and temps definitely above freezing at the surface. I
remember the gear being stiff to move up and down, but not stuck. Always
good to learn from other's experiences, though, so will be sure to keep a
good safety margin before I go flying on the water in the winter again.



Happy New Year, everyone.



Walter





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I am wondering which it was, freezing on T/O out of the Fraser or
freezing after landing due to cold soak until the above freezing water
warmed it up?
I think the big worry is whether the gear could freeze in transit or
whether the airflow would blow enough of the moisture out of the
critical areas. Is flight out of open water into freezing conditions
different than flight out of freezing conditions into open water?
Anybody with experience to share?

Bob.


On 1/1/2011 8:55 AM, Walter Klatt wrote:

There was a discussion here recently about what might happen if you fly
amphibs on the water in near freezing weather. Well, one of the guys
here,
put that to the test yesterday.



It was a very nice clear day here, but upper air very cold, and surface
temps just below or near freezing. He did a flight over one of the local
lakes here, but did not land. When he got back, he landed on the Fraser,
with the intention of driving up the ramp at Pitt Meadows. However, the
water froze the front gear channels and he had trouble getting the gear
down. He taxied around for a while on the water, kept trying, and finally
got it loose and put the gear down. When he got up the ramp, he said
there
was still streaks of ice on the floats. Needless to say, he departed Pitt
Meadows on the runway, and kept the gear down until he got back to
Langley.



My theory is that when he was flying, the air temps were well below
freezing. Then when he landed, the water splashing up at the bows quickly
froze in the front gear well with the very cold metal.



I had thought of possibly going flying yesterday, too, but with the cold
temps, decided against it. Probably a very good decision, as I would have
landed at Harrison, then might have been stuck in the air trying to get
the
gear down after coming back to Langley.



I have flown near freezing temps before in the winter, with no problems,
but
not quite this cold, and temps definitely above freezing at the surface.
I
remember the gear being stiff to move up and down, but not stuck. Always
good to learn from other's experiences, though, so will be sure to keep a
good safety margin before I go flying on the water in the winter again.



Happy New Year, everyone.



Walter





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I am wondering which it was, freezing on T/O out of the Fraser or
freezing after landing due to cold soak until the above freezing water
warmed it up?
I think the big worry is whether the gear could freeze in transit or
whether the airflow would blow enough of the moisture out of the
critical areas. Is flight out of open water into freezing conditions
different than flight out of freezing conditions into open water?
Anybody with experience to share?

Bob.


On 1/1/2011 8:55 AM, Walter Klatt wrote:

There was a discussion here recently about what might happen if you fly
amphibs on the water in near freezing weather. Well, one of the guys
here,
put that to the test yesterday.



It was a very nice clear day here, but upper air very cold, and surface
temps just below or near freezing. He did a flight over one of the local
lakes here, but did not land. When he got back, he landed on the Fraser,
with the intention of driving up the ramp at Pitt Meadows. However, the
water froze the front gear channels and he had trouble getting the gear
down. He taxied around for a while on the water, kept trying, and finally
got it loose and put the gear down. When he got up the ramp, he said
there
was still streaks of ice on the floats. Needless to say, he departed Pitt
Meadows on the runway, and kept the gear down until he got back to
Langley.



My theory is that when he was flying, the air temps were well below
freezing. Then when he landed, the water splashing up at the bows quickly
froze in the front gear well with the very cold metal.



I had thought of possibly going flying yesterday, too, but with the cold
temps, decided against it. Probably a very good decision, as I would have
landed at Harrison, then might have been stuck in the air trying to get
the
gear down after coming back to Langley.



I have flown near freezing temps before in the winter, with no problems,
but
not quite this cold, and temps definitely above freezing at the surface.
I
remember the gear being stiff to move up and down, but not stuck. Always
good to learn from other's experiences, though, so will be sure to keep a
good safety margin before I go flying on the water in the winter again.



Happy New Year, everyone.



Walter





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I spoke to him again today, and there is more to the story. I had thought
that his first landing in the water was when it froze up. But that was not
the case. He had earlier landed on the water, went up the ramp, and then
back down into the water, all without problems. But then he went for a 40
minute flight, which would give the water sitting in the front wheel wells
plenty enough time to freeze up. It was after that when he landed and the
gear was frozen.

So that tells me that if you cycle the gear down immediately after leaving
the water (assuming your next landing will be on land), you should be OK.
Also, it wouldn't hurt to point the nose down for a while (after climbing
high enough), to let some of the water in the front wheel wells to drain out
before it freezes.

Having said all that, I would still be very careful about flying in below
freezing conditions on the water. I think I will just wait until I know for
sure I have above freezing surface temps. We get enough warmer days here in
the winter that I don't have to push it.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 12:06 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Flying amphibs in freezing weather

I'd be more concerned coming out of the freezing air and into the water. Be
no different than my LATE fall Musky fishing when it's minus 5C or so.. but
the water is still 39F or so.. and we come in with a good 2 to 3 inches of
ice build up on the boat from breaking waves and they instantly freeze to
the aluminum boat.

Take off from that 39F water.. I'd be cycling my gear immediately to the
down position if that is where I was going next.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Flying amphibs in freezing weather

I am wondering which it was, freezing on T/O out of the Fraser or
freezing after landing due to cold soak until the above freezing water
warmed it up?
I think the big worry is whether the gear could freeze in transit or
whether the airflow would blow enough of the moisture out of the
critical areas. Is flight out of open water into freezing conditions
different than flight out of freezing conditions into open water?
Anybody with experience to share?

Bob.


On 1/1/2011 8:55 AM, Walter Klatt wrote:

There was a discussion here recently about what might happen if you fly
amphibs on the water in near freezing weather. Well, one of the guys
here,
put that to the test yesterday.



It was a very nice clear day here, but upper air very cold, and surface
temps just below or near freezing. He did a flight over one of the local
lakes here, but did not land. When he got back, he landed on the Fraser,
with the intention of driving up the ramp at Pitt Meadows. However, the
water froze the front gear channels and he had trouble getting the gear
down. He taxied around for a while on the water, kept trying, and finally
got it loose and put the gear down. When he got up the ramp, he said
there
was still streaks of ice on the floats. Needless to say, he departed Pitt
Meadows on the runway, and kept the gear down until he got back to
Langley.



My theory is that when he was flying, the air temps were well below
freezing. Then when he landed, the water splashing up at the bows quickly
froze in the front gear well with the very cold metal.



I had thought of possibly going flying yesterday, too, but with the cold
temps, decided against it. Probably a very good decision, as I would have
landed at Harrison, then might have been stuck in the air trying to get
the
gear down after coming back to Langley.



I have flown near freezing temps before in the winter, with no problems,
but
not quite this cold, and temps definitely above freezing at the surface.
I
remember the gear being stiff to move up and down, but not stuck. Always
good to learn from other's experiences, though, so will be sure to keep a
good safety margin before I go flying on the water in the winter again.



Happy New Year, everyone.



Walter





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I spoke to him again today, and there is more to the story. I had thought
that his first landing in the water was when it froze up. But that was not
the case. He had earlier landed on the water, went up the ramp, and then
back down into the water, all without problems. But then he went for a 40
minute flight, which would give the water sitting in the front wheel wells
plenty enough time to freeze up. It was after that when he landed and the
gear was frozen.

So that tells me that if you cycle the gear down immediately after leaving
the water (assuming your next landing will be on land), you should be OK.
Also, it wouldn't hurt to point the nose down for a while (after climbing
high enough), to let some of the water in the front wheel wells to drain out
before it freezes.

Having said all that, I would still be very careful about flying in below
freezing conditions on the water. I think I will just wait until I know for
sure I have above freezing surface temps. We get enough warmer days here in
the winter that I don't have to push it.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 12:06 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Flying amphibs in freezing weather

I'd be more concerned coming out of the freezing air and into the water. Be
no different than my LATE fall Musky fishing when it's minus 5C or so.. but
the water is still 39F or so.. and we come in with a good 2 to 3 inches of
ice build up on the boat from breaking waves and they instantly freeze to
the aluminum boat.

Take off from that 39F water.. I'd be cycling my gear immediately to the
down position if that is where I was going next.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer"<rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Flying amphibs in freezing weather

I am wondering which it was, freezing on T/O out of the Fraser or
freezing after landing due to cold soak until the above freezing water
warmed it up?
I think the big worry is whether the gear could freeze in transit or
whether the airflow would blow enough of the moisture out of the
critical areas. Is flight out of open water into freezing conditions
different than flight out of freezing conditions into open water?
Anybody with experience to share?

Bob.


On 1/1/2011 8:55 AM, Walter Klatt wrote:

There was a discussion here recently about what might happen if you fly
amphibs on the water in near freezing weather. Well, one of the guys
here,
put that to the test yesterday.



It was a very nice clear day here, but upper air very cold, and surface
temps just below or near freezing. He did a flight over one of the local
lakes here, but did not land. When he got back, he landed on the Fraser,
with the intention of driving up the ramp at Pitt Meadows. However, the
water froze the front gear channels and he had trouble getting the gear
down. He taxied around for a while on the water, kept trying, and finally
got it loose and put the gear down. When he got up the ramp, he said
there
was still streaks of ice on the floats. Needless to say, he departed Pitt
Meadows on the runway, and kept the gear down until he got back to
Langley.



My theory is that when he was flying, the air temps were well below
freezing. Then when he landed, the water splashing up at the bows quickly
froze in the front gear well with the very cold metal.



I had thought of possibly going flying yesterday, too, but with the cold
temps, decided against it. Probably a very good decision, as I would have
landed at Harrison, then might have been stuck in the air trying to get
the
gear down after coming back to Langley.



I have flown near freezing temps before in the winter, with no problems,
but
not quite this cold, and temps definitely above freezing at the surface.
I
remember the gear being stiff to move up and down, but not stuck. Always
good to learn from other's experiences, though, so will be sure to keep a
good safety margin before I go flying on the water in the winter again.



Happy New Year, everyone.



Walter





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I spoke to him again today, and there is more to the story. I had thought
that his first landing in the water was when it froze up. But that was not
the case. He had earlier landed on the water, went up the ramp, and then
back down into the water, all without problems. But then he went for a 40
minute flight, which would give the water sitting in the front wheel wells
plenty enough time to freeze up. It was after that when he landed and the
gear was frozen.

So that tells me that if you cycle the gear down immediately after leaving
the water (assuming your next landing will be on land), you should be OK.
Also, it wouldn't hurt to point the nose down for a while (after climbing
high enough), to let some of the water in the front wheel wells to drain out
before it freezes.

Having said all that, I would still be very careful about flying in below
freezing conditions on the water. I think I will just wait until I know for
sure I have above freezing surface temps. We get enough warmer days here in
the winter that I don't have to push it.

Walter

I spoke to him again today, and there is more to the story. I had thought
that his first landing in the water was when it froze up. But that was not
the case. He had earlier landed on the water, went up the ramp, and then
back down into the water, all without problems. But then he went for a 40
minute flight, which would give the water sitting in the front wheel wells
plenty enough time to freeze up. It was after that when he landed and the
gear was frozen.

So that tells me that if you cycle the gear down immediately after leaving
the water (assuming your next landing will be on land), you should be OK.
Also, it wouldn't hurt to point the nose down for a while (after climbing
high enough), to let some of the water in the front wheel wells to drain

before it freezes.

Having said all that, I would still be very careful about flying in below
freezing conditions on the water. I think I will just wait until I know

sure I have above freezing surface temps. We get enough warmer days here

the winter that I don't have to push it.

Walter