The Murphy Builders Site

Jason,

Scrap the Murphy dual system. After initially putting mine together (in a
temporary fashion to test the workings), I saw right away that that was not
going to work. Also, a former MAM employee advised of problems with the dual
system. One Moose owner in California wrecked his plane on landing, reportedly
due to the brakes locking up over center, injuring him and his wife, and really
messing up the plane.


It is possible to just install two more brake cylinders for the right side
pedals, joining them up with the respective cylinder on the left side. This is
what I may do in the future. For now, I've gone with brake controls on just the
left side.


The angle for the cylinder works out well enough. However, the right brake
pedal sits closer to the firewall than the left pedal. I have had to adjust the
pedals so that the top hinged brake portion of the pedal is straight up, aligned
vertically in plane with the bottom rudder control portion of the pedal
assembly. This is because the 'ears' or the attach points of the brake pedal
can contact the firewall when applying right rudder/steering and needing to
apply right brake as well. Making slow speed 90 degree turns has been a problem
at times. The system, as is, is definitely not ideal, but I've got it working
better now. There still is no way to apply full right rudder and full right
brake pressure at the same time. As a result, right turns cannot be 'taken for
granted'.


Good luck on the build. Flying the finished product is worth it!

Darryl


________________________________
From: Jason Beall <super_rebel131@yahoo.com>
To: new list server <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 7:47:09 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry

Guys,

This is involved so I have uploaded a video with my question to my Youtube page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09h8TAZjxd4

Basically, I am debating if I want to keep the Murphy dual brake system or not.
I also have a question abou the master cylinder geometry as well. See video
please.

Thanks for your thoughts. I'd specifically like to hear from anyone who is
flying if they have had any problems witht he system. I understand some time
back there were issues with rudder pedals locking up in certain conditions.


Thanks -Jason







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IF I am not mistaken it's the same dual system in the Elite's. I've tried
and tried with the two I have had through here (and one that is resident
every winter) but no matter what we've tried we can not lock them up over
center.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Darryl Conway" <kyhelo@bellsouth.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry

Jason,

Scrap the Murphy dual system. After initially putting mine together (in a
temporary fashion to test the workings), I saw right away that that was
not
going to work. Also, a former MAM employee advised of problems with the
dual
system. One Moose owner in California wrecked his plane on landing,
reportedly
due to the brakes locking up over center, injuring him and his wife, and
really
messing up the plane.


It is possible to just install two more brake cylinders for the right side
pedals, joining them up with the respective cylinder on the left side.
This is
what I may do in the future. For now, I've gone with brake controls on
just the
left side.


The angle for the cylinder works out well enough. However, the right
brake
pedal sits closer to the firewall than the left pedal. I have had to
adjust the
pedals so that the top hinged brake portion of the pedal is straight up,
aligned
vertically in plane with the bottom rudder control portion of the pedal
assembly. This is because the 'ears' or the attach points of the brake
pedal
can contact the firewall when applying right rudder/steering and needing
to
apply right brake as well. Making slow speed 90 degree turns has been a
problem
at times. The system, as is, is definitely not ideal, but I've got it
working
better now. There still is no way to apply full right rudder and full
right
brake pressure at the same time. As a result, right turns cannot be
'taken for
granted'.


Good luck on the build. Flying the finished product is worth it!

Darryl


________________________________
From: Jason Beall <super_rebel131@yahoo.com>
To: new list server <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 7:47:09 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry

Guys,

This is involved so I have uploaded a video with my question to my Youtube
page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09h8TAZjxd4

Basically, I am debating if I want to keep the Murphy dual brake system or
not.
I also have a question abou the master cylinder geometry as well. See
video
please.

Thanks for your thoughts. I'd specifically like to hear from anyone who is
flying if they have had any problems witht he system. I understand some
time
back there were issues with rudder pedals locking up in certain
conditions.


Thanks -Jason







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Hmmmm..... if your brake pedals hit the firewall when you have
full rudder in, your aircraft wasn't built properly !!

There's no reason for this !! All you have to do is try it out
first, and attach the rudder pedal cross shaft further back on
the floor ...

I've seen a Rebel built by a fellow with short legs, who moved
the pedals rearward several inches - suited him, and it's impossible
to hit the firewall. ;-)

Most builders go to separate cylinders on each side for
ease of installation & redundancy.

--

......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson


Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.


On December 11, 2010 08:52:46 pm Darryl Conway wrote:

Jason,

Scrap the Murphy dual system. After initially putting mine together (in a
temporary fashion to test the workings), I saw right away that that was not
going to work. Also, a former MAM employee advised of problems with the
dual system. One Moose owner in California wrecked his plane on landing,
reportedly due to the brakes locking up over center, injuring him and his
wife, and really messing up the plane.


It is possible to just install two more brake cylinders for the right side
pedals, joining them up with the respective cylinder on the left side.
This is what I may do in the future. For now, I've gone with brake
controls on just the left side.


The angle for the cylinder works out well enough. However, the right brake
pedal sits closer to the firewall than the left pedal. I have had to
adjust the pedals so that the top hinged brake portion of the pedal is
straight up, aligned vertically in plane with the bottom rudder control
portion of the pedal assembly. This is because the 'ears' or the attach
points of the brake pedal can contact the firewall when applying right
rudder/steering and needing to apply right brake as well. Making slow
speed 90 degree turns has been a problem at times. The system, as is, is
definitely not ideal, but I've got it working better now. There still is
no way to apply full right rudder and full right brake pressure at the
same time. As a result, right turns cannot be 'taken for granted'.


Good luck on the build. Flying the finished product is worth it!

Darryl


________________________________
From: Jason Beall <super_rebel131@yahoo.com>
To: new list server <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 7:47:09 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry

Guys,

This is involved so I have uploaded a video with my question to my Youtube
page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09h8TAZjxd4

Basically, I am debating if I want to keep the Murphy dual brake system or
not. I also have a question abou the master cylinder geometry as well. See
video please.

Thanks for your thoughts. I'd specifically like to hear from anyone who is
flying if they have had any problems witht he system. I understand some
time back there were issues with rudder pedals locking up in certain
conditions.


Thanks -Jason

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Hi Wayne (and all)



I had to cut the supplied vertical push square tube (pedal to horizontal
torque tube) about an inch shorter when I built mine to prevent a possible
over centre from what I can remember. I'm quite confident now it cannot
happen but I did have the advantage of a heads up from this group about the
problem when I started to build that bit !



Nig

745E



_____

From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: 12 December 2010 02:09
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry



IF I am not mistaken it's the same dual system in the Elite's. I've tried
and tried with the two I have had through here (and one that is resident
every winter) but no matter what we've tried we can not lock them up over
center.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Darryl Conway" <kyhelo@bellsouth.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry

Jason,

Scrap the Murphy dual system. After initially putting mine together (in a
temporary fashion to test the workings), I saw right away that that was
not
going to work. Also, a former MAM employee advised of problems with the
dual
system. One Moose owner in California wrecked his plane on landing,
reportedly
due to the brakes locking up over center, injuring him and his wife, and
really
messing up the plane.


It is possible to just install two more brake cylinders for the right side
pedals, joining them up with the respective cylinder on the left side.
This is
what I may do in the future. For now, I've gone with brake controls on
just the
left side.


The angle for the cylinder works out well enough. However, the right
brake
pedal sits closer to the firewall than the left pedal. I have had to
adjust the
pedals so that the top hinged brake portion of the pedal is straight up,
aligned
vertically in plane with the bottom rudder control portion of the pedal
assembly. This is because the 'ears' or the attach points of the brake
pedal
can contact the firewall when applying right rudder/steering and needing
to
apply right brake as well. Making slow speed 90 degree turns has been a
problem
at times. The system, as is, is definitely not ideal, but I've got it
working
better now. There still is no way to apply full right rudder and full
right
brake pressure at the same time. As a result, right turns cannot be
'taken for
granted'.


Good luck on the build. Flying the finished product is worth it!

Darryl


________________________________
From: Jason Beall <super_rebel131@yahoo.com>
To: new list server <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 7:47:09 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry

Guys,

This is involved so I have uploaded a video with my question to my Youtube
page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09h8TAZjxd4

Basically, I am debating if I want to keep the Murphy dual brake system or
not.
I also have a question abou the master cylinder geometry as well. See
video
please.

Thanks for your thoughts. I'd specifically like to hear from anyone who is
flying if they have had any problems witht he system. I understand some
time
back there were issues with rudder pedals locking up in certain
conditions.


Thanks -Jason







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_____

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3310 - Release Date: 12/11/10

_____

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3310 - Release Date: 12/11/10





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Well, Bob
It was built per the supplied drawings, measurements, and instructions. It has
since been 'properly' improved upon, correcting the originally supplied
instructions.






________________________________
From: Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 9:45:05 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry


Hmmmm..... if your brake pedals hit the firewall when you have
full rudder in, your aircraft wasn't built properly !!

There's no reason for this !! All you have to do is try it out
first, and attach the rudder pedal cross shaft further back on
the floor ...

I've seen a Rebel built by a fellow with short legs, who moved
the pedals rearward several inches - suited him, and it's impossible
to hit the firewall. ;-)

Most builders go to separate cylinders on each side for
ease of installation & redundancy.

--

......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson


Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.


On December 11, 2010 08:52:46 pm Darryl Conway wrote:

Jason,

Scrap the Murphy dual system. After initially putting mine together (in a
temporary fashion to test the workings), I saw right away that that was not
going to work. Also, a former MAM employee advised of problems with the
dual system. One Moose owner in California wrecked his plane on landing,
reportedly due to the brakes locking up over center, injuring him and his
wife, and really messing up the plane.


It is possible to just install two more brake cylinders for the right side
pedals, joining them up with the respective cylinder on the left side.
This is what I may do in the future. For now, I've gone with brake
controls on just the left side.


The angle for the cylinder works out well enough. However, the right brake
pedal sits closer to the firewall than the left pedal. I have had to
adjust the pedals so that the top hinged brake portion of the pedal is
straight up, aligned vertically in plane with the bottom rudder control
portion of the pedal assembly. This is because the 'ears' or the attach
points of the brake pedal can contact the firewall when applying right
rudder/steering and needing to apply right brake as well. Making slow
speed 90 degree turns has been a problem at times. The system, as is, is
definitely not ideal, but I've got it working better now. There still is
no way to apply full right rudder and full right brake pressure at the
same time. As a result, right turns cannot be 'taken for granted'.


Good luck on the build. Flying the finished product is worth it!

Darryl


________________________________
From: Jason Beall <super_rebel131@yahoo.com>
To: new list server <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 7:47:09 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry

Guys,

This is involved so I have uploaded a video with my question to my Youtube
page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09h8TAZjxd4

Basically, I am debating if I want to keep the Murphy dual brake system or
not. I also have a question abou the master cylinder geometry as well. See
video please.

Thanks for your thoughts. I'd specifically like to hear from anyone who is
flying if they have had any problems witht he system. I understand some
time back there were issues with rudder pedals locking up in certain
conditions.


Thanks -Jason

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Guys,

Thanks for your comments. This has been a huge help. Not sure what I am going to do yet. I am going to start running my rudder cables today and "soak" on your comments.

If anyone else has any ideas please reply back. Thanks.

Thanks, -Jason






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Not sure, this may be a silly idea, but can the firewall be turned around to give an extra 1/2". ?

K
kelly@tru-form.ca
Enjoy your day !


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Beall <super_rebel131@yahoo.com>
Sender: <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 08:22:01
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry

Guys,

Thanks for your comments. This has been a huge help. Not sure what I am going to do yet. I am going to start running my rudder cables today and "soak" on your comments.

If anyone else has any ideas please reply back. Thanks.

Thanks, -Jason






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If it is anything like the Rebel, yes it has been done. But if it is
like the Rebel, the biggest thing you can do by far is to mount the
bottom of the brake cylinders to the floor so that the brake pedal stay
vertical even when you have full rudder applied. Effectively gives you
several more inches of firewall clearance and large winter boots become
a non issue.

If you like to let non tail wheel pilots sit in the left seat where they
are more used to sitting, then you really need dual brakes. Sooner or
later one of them will loose it to the point where brakes are the only
way to stop the ground loop.

Even for pilots sitting in the right seat, I find that letting them taxi
goes a long way to getting them used to tailwheel flying. OTOH it is
just dead weight on floats...

Ken

Kelly M. Ewing wrote:

Not sure, this may be a silly idea, but can the firewall be turned
around to give an extra 1/2". ?

K kelly@tru-form.ca Enjoy your day !


-----Original Message----- From: Jason Beall
<super_rebel131@yahoo.com> Sender: <mike.davis@dcsol.com> Date: Sun,
12 Dec 2010 08:22:01 To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com> Reply-To:
<rebel-builders@dcsol.com> Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose
brake geometry

Guys,

Thanks for your comments. This has been a huge help. Not sure what I
am going to do yet. I am going to start running my rudder cables
today and "soak" on your comments.

If anyone else has any ideas please reply back. Thanks.

Thanks, -Jason

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Jason,

Strongly recommend you eliminate R-side factory brake mechanism. There are
several SR/Moose builders who have implemented R-side brakes via a second
set of slave/master cylinders who I'm sure would send you pictures/drawings
if you later decide to add R-side brakes. I've been flying over a year w/
no R-side brakes and have never missed them.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jason
Beall
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 9:22 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry

Guys,

Thanks for your comments. This has been a huge help. Not sure what I am
going to do yet. I am going to start running my rudder cables today and
"soak" on your comments.

If anyone else has any ideas please reply back. Thanks.

Thanks, -Jason






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A couple possibly redundant observations/data points:

1) My pedals are mounted per the manual, and with brake cylinders originally
mounted to the factory tang on the pedals, the outboard end of the right
brake pedal tube hit the witch's hat on the FW with full rudder and brake
pedal deflection.

2) I strongly concur with Ken that it's much better to mount the brake
cylinders to the floor -- at least in Rebels. Otherwise, with full rudder
(tailwheel steering) it's much more difficult to achieve good braking. Your
foot has to push the brake over the top of its rotation, when it's already
leaning forward from rudder action, and your toes lose leverage. I was
amazed at the improvement in brake action when I moved the cylinders to the
floor. I know some have mounted the cylinder bottoms to the pedals and found
it to be OK (and it may be better with time to get used to it) but that
mount position was a significant factor in my loop incident at 8 hrs. TTAF.
At least, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. True, my series of stupid
decisions beforehand were _more_ significant, but.. in the end game of that
event, I don't think I got adequate brake action because of the mount
position and/or FW interference. Terry Dazey contributed a nice diagram with
measurements of the floor mount geometry that makes it easy. I think it's in
the Rebel files area on the main website. Highly recommended.

3) The pros and cons of mounting the FW with flange forward (factory design)
or back have been discussed here quite a bit already. There are significant
considerations either way, but I sure wish I had another 1/2" behind the
panel (in the Rebel). With the flange forward, even right angle DB cable
connectors on the rear of the Garmin gear are right on the FW, and nearly
impossible to get on and off without disassembling the back panels in the
avionics stack. In my case that means handling a bunch of itty bitty screws
at the end of long skinny screwdrivers -- not my idea of a fun time.


Ron
http://n254mr.com




On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

If it is anything like the Rebel, yes it has been done. But if it is
like the Rebel, the biggest thing you can do by far is to mount the
bottom of the brake cylinders to the floor so that the brake pedal stay
vertical even when you have full rudder applied. Effectively gives you
several more inches of firewall clearance and large winter boots become
a non issue.

If you like to let non tail wheel pilots sit in the left seat where they
are more used to sitting, then you really need dual brakes. Sooner or
later one of them will loose it to the point where brakes are the only
way to stop the ground loop.

Even for pilots sitting in the right seat, I find that letting them taxi
goes a long way to getting them used to tailwheel flying. OTOH it is
just dead weight on floats...

Ken

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That's just what I did this morning. Thanks again for all the suggestions and comments. I may add a second set of master cylinders at a later date, but for now I am going with pilot's side brakes only.

Thanks, -Jason

--- On Sun, 12/12/10, Ted Waltman <ted@vafm.org> wrote:

[quote]From: Ted Waltman <ted@vafm.org>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose brake geometry
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Sunday, December 12, 2010, 10:34 AM
Jason,

Strongly recommend you eliminate R-side factory brake
mechanism.

Might be easier to move the instrument panel back a bit than to reverse
the firewall on a Rebel if someone wants more clearance. Just cut off
outboard ears and bend new ones like we do when moving the firewall back
3". Of course the glareshield and square tube bracing to the firewall
will change slightly. It's minor but moving things rearward seems to be
better than forward on a Rebel unless you have a light engine. How is
that Jab working out Ron?
Ken

Ron Shannon wrote:

A couple possibly redundant observations/data points:

1) My pedals are mounted per the manual, and with brake cylinders originally
mounted to the factory tang on the pedals, the outboard end of the right
brake pedal tube hit the witch's hat on the FW with full rudder and brake
pedal deflection.

2) I strongly concur with Ken that it's much better to mount the brake
cylinders to the floor -- at least in Rebels. Otherwise, with full rudder
(tailwheel steering) it's much more difficult to achieve good braking. Your
foot has to push the brake over the top of its rotation, when it's already
leaning forward from rudder action, and your toes lose leverage. I was
amazed at the improvement in brake action when I moved the cylinders to the
floor. I know some have mounted the cylinder bottoms to the pedals and found
it to be OK (and it may be better with time to get used to it) but that
mount position was a significant factor in my loop incident at 8 hrs. TTAF.
At least, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. True, my series of stupid
decisions beforehand were _more_ significant, but.. in the end game of that
event, I don't think I got adequate brake action because of the mount
position and/or FW interference. Terry Dazey contributed a nice diagram with
measurements of the floor mount geometry that makes it easy. I think it's in
the Rebel files area on the main website. Highly recommended.

3) The pros and cons of mounting the FW with flange forward (factory design)
or back have been discussed here quite a bit already. There are significant
considerations either way, but I sure wish I had another 1/2" behind the
panel (in the Rebel). With the flange forward, even right angle DB cable
connectors on the rear of the Garmin gear are right on the FW, and nearly
impossible to get on and off without disassembling the back panels in the
avionics stack. In my case that means handling a bunch of itty bitty screws
at the end of long skinny screwdrivers -- not my idea of a fun time.


Ron
http://n254mr.com

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