[rebel-builders] Door sill damage

[Ted Waltman]

I've seen similar damage on the bottom corner wrap immediately aft of the
baggage door on a Moose that was (I believe) over-loaded that had a hard
landing on floats. Installation of witches hat along the bottom corner
wraps was the choice to hopefully prevent future similar problems.

Ted Waltman

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:40 AM
To: Rebel-Builders
Subject: [rebel-builders] Door sill damage

Coming home from the lake yesterday, had to take off in some very rough
water (I can tell you more about that if anyone wants to hear the full
story), and hit a big swell real hard with my left float just before getting
airborne. When I got back to the hangar, I noticed my bottom left door sill
where it slants upwards to the rear had a buckle in the ST31 channel. I
posted some pics in R-Fuselage 206.



Looking for some advice on best way to fix. I can't remember if this was a
mod area, and bigger channels (ST28?) are to be used, and/or bigger side
skins at that area.



I am thinking of putting in a new channel and maybe some side skin doublers
in that center door sill area. I will also be doing a real good inspection
for other damage that might have happened. At first glance, everything else
seems to be OK. Even my door still closes/opens and fits just fine, so
everything must have sprung back to its correct position.



Have others seen this happen? What are your suggestions?



Walter





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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Walter !

Glad there was no serious damage !

This is a popular "Ontario Mod" area - the first mod is to
replace all door frame channels with the thicker ST-28's,
as you already figured.

The second is to replace FUS-26 and FUS-25 side panels
with copies in .032 6061-T6 (some use .040). It is also
good to add a couple of vertical pieces of stringer to the
inside of FUS-26 - the panel under the door. Some use
sections of ST-31 there, as they are left over from not
being used on the door frames ... ;-)

Some builders with flying Rebels have just added an identical
FUS-26 over top of the existing one, drilling oversize holes to
clear the present rivets, and adding new rivets in between --
with lots of PolyFiber Epoxy Primer EP-430/431 slathered on in
between the 2 layers. Thought this was a clever solution !

You are not the first to see this - hopefully, with new builders
adding the mods, there will be less of this. It does only show up
on extremely rough water ....

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson


Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

On August 19, 2010 10:40:23 am Walter Klatt wrote:

Coming home from the lake yesterday, had to take off in some very rough
water (I can tell you more about that if anyone wants to hear the full
story), and hit a big swell real hard with my left float just before
getting airborne. When I got back to the hangar, I noticed my bottom left
door sill where it slants upwards to the rear had a buckle in the ST31
channel. I posted some pics in R-Fuselage 206.



Looking for some advice on best way to fix. I can't remember if this was a
mod area, and bigger channels (ST28?) are to be used, and/or bigger side
skins at that area.



I am thinking of putting in a new channel and maybe some side skin doublers
in that center door sill area. I will also be doing a real good inspection
for other damage that might have happened. At first glance, everything else
seems to be OK. Even my door still closes/opens and fits just fine, so
everything must have sprung back to its correct position.



Have others seen this happen? What are your suggestions?



Walter

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[schaumr]

Hi All,

This is a really interesting discussion for me, because I read somewhere (and
I believe it's been said before on this list too) that beefing up the structure
only transfers the stresses to the next weakest point (but I'm not an
engineer).

Since access, inspection, and repair of that particular area of the aircraft is
relatively easy, might it not be better to replace the buckled channel (and
skins) with exactly the same material? Seems like the perfect place for
a 'crumple zone" in case of hard impact on floats.

Having said that, I confess that my rear corner wraps are 0.025", and that I
have doubled my FUS30. In my defence, I did those to avoid having to one
day repair these challenging areas (they were challenging to me, at least!).

Thoughts?
Rob


On 8/19/2010 7:04 AM, bobp@prosumers.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Hi Walter !
->
-> Glad there was no serious damage !
->
-> This is a popular "Ontario Mod" area - the first mod is to
-> replace all door frame channels with the thicker ST-28's,
-> as you already figured.
->
-> The second is to replace FUS-26 and FUS-25 side panels
-> with copies in .032 6061-T6 (some use .040). It is also
-> good to add a couple of vertical pieces of stringer to the
-> inside of FUS-26 - the panel under the door. Some use
-> sections of ST-31 there, as they are left over from not
-> being used on the door frames ... ;-)
->
-> Some builders with flying Rebels have just added an identical
-> FUS-26 over top of the existing one, drilling oversize holes to
-> clear the present rivets, and adding new rivets in between --
-> with lots of PolyFiber Epoxy Primer EP-430/431 slathered on in
-> between the 2 layers. Thought this was a clever solution !
->
-> You are not the first to see this - hopefully, with new builders
-> adding the mods, there will be less of this. It does only show up
-> on extremely rough water ....
->
-> --
-> ......bobp
-> bobp@prosumers.ca
-> http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson
->
->
-> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
-> and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
-> Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
-> responsibility of the reader.
->
-> On August 19, 2010 10:40:23 am Walter Klatt wrote:
-> > Coming home from the lake yesterday, had to take off in some very
rough
-> > water (I can tell you more about that if anyone wants to hear the full
-> > story), and hit a big swell real hard with my left float just before
-> > getting airborne. When I got back to the hangar, I noticed my bottom
left
-> > door sill where it slants upwards to the rear had a buckle in the ST31
-> > channel. I posted some pics in R-Fuselage 206.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > Looking for some advice on best way to fix. I can't remember if this was
a
-> > mod area, and bigger channels (ST28?) are to be used, and/or bigger
side
-> > skins at that area.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > I am thinking of putting in a new channel and maybe some side skin
doublers
-> > in that center door sill area. I will also be doing a real good inspection
-> > for other damage that might have happened. At first glance, everything
else
-> > seems to be OK. Even my door still closes/opens and fits just fine, so
-> > everything must have sprung back to its correct position.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > Have others seen this happen? What are your suggestions?
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > Walter




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[Walter Klatt]

I might mention too, that this particular channel gets some wear and tear
(small dents and nicks) from dragging coolers and other heavy items in and
out of the rear baggage area. This may even have caused a weak spot for the
buckling to start. So at the least the heavier ST28 should protect against
that.

Having an older built Rebel, I don't have all the mods on mine, and I keep a
very close eye on some of those areas. The one I expected to have some
problems with is the rear float hard points not having the inside doubler on
the bulkhead, or the outside patch as some have done. Yet with all my rough
water float flying, this area has held up just fine, so far. I should
mention though, that my rear float struts are exactly parallel to the back
of the cabin skin and bulkhead, so that probably helps transfer that load
evenly to the structure.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
schaumr@dcsol.com
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:57 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Door sill damage

Hi All,

This is a really interesting discussion for me, because I read somewhere
(and
I believe it's been said before on this list too) that beefing up the
structure
only transfers the stresses to the next weakest point (but I'm not an
engineer).

Since access, inspection, and repair of that particular area of the aircraft
is
relatively easy, might it not be better to replace the buckled channel (and
skins) with exactly the same material? Seems like the perfect place for
a 'crumple zone" in case of hard impact on floats.

Having said that, I confess that my rear corner wraps are 0.025", and that I

have doubled my FUS30. In my defence, I did those to avoid having to one
day repair these challenging areas (they were challenging to me, at least!).

Thoughts?
Rob


On 8/19/2010 7:04 AM, bobp@prosumers.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Hi Walter !
->
-> Glad there was no serious damage !
->
-> This is a popular "Ontario Mod" area - the first mod is to
-> replace all door frame channels with the thicker ST-28's,
-> as you already figured.
->
-> The second is to replace FUS-26 and FUS-25 side panels
-> with copies in .032 6061-T6 (some use .040). It is also
-> good to add a couple of vertical pieces of stringer to the
-> inside of FUS-26 - the panel under the door. Some use
-> sections of ST-31 there, as they are left over from not
-> being used on the door frames ... ;-)
->
-> Some builders with flying Rebels have just added an identical
-> FUS-26 over top of the existing one, drilling oversize holes to
-> clear the present rivets, and adding new rivets in between --
-> with lots of PolyFiber Epoxy Primer EP-430/431 slathered on in
-> between the 2 layers. Thought this was a clever solution !
->
-> You are not the first to see this - hopefully, with new builders
-> adding the mods, there will be less of this. It does only show up
-> on extremely rough water ....
->
-> --
-> ......bobp
-> bobp@prosumers.ca
-> http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson
->
->
-> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
-> and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or
persons.
-> Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
-> responsibility of the reader.
->
-> On August 19, 2010 10:40:23 am Walter Klatt wrote:
-> > Coming home from the lake yesterday, had to take off in some very
rough
-> > water (I can tell you more about that if anyone wants to hear the full
-> > story), and hit a big swell real hard with my left float just before
-> > getting airborne. When I got back to the hangar, I noticed my bottom
left
-> > door sill where it slants upwards to the rear had a buckle in the ST31
-> > channel. I posted some pics in R-Fuselage 206.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > Looking for some advice on best way to fix. I can't remember if this
was
a
-> > mod area, and bigger channels (ST28?) are to be used, and/or bigger
side
-> > skins at that area.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > I am thinking of putting in a new channel and maybe some side skin
doublers
-> > in that center door sill area. I will also be doing a real good
inspection
-> > for other damage that might have happened. At first glance, everything
else
-> > seems to be OK. Even my door still closes/opens and fits just fine, so
-> > everything must have sprung back to its correct position.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > Have others seen this happen? What are your suggestions?
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > Walter




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