The Murphy Builders Site

G'day Ian


I read the e-mail Bobp sent you on split flaps. I just wanted to tell you about an incidence I have had during a crosswind.

There have been times that I have held full aileron deflection to bring my upwind wing down. One time during a formation landing with Len in his Cessna 150, we encountered a right crosswind. Just as we were crossing over the numbers, my right wing went up. I immediately threw in full right aileron, but the wing was still not going down. We were at about 20 ft AGL and I knew I had no recovery time if it decided to go over, so then I kicked right rudder and that brought it down. Even though I was 45 degrees to the runway then, at least I had things under control.

The roll response in a Rebel is much better than a Cessna and so is the rudder authority. I don't know what type of shape I would have been in if I were flying a Cessna, but thank God I was in a Rebel. If you are going to try split flaps, take Bob's advise and set yourself up for an easy conversion back to flaperons.

Rick Ford
Rebel436

G'day.

OK guys here is a chance to grab a bargain!

I have the split flap kit that I was going to fit onto my Rebel, but for one reason or another I did not.

I really don't want the bits just gathering dust on the shelf. and I will sell them to a reasonable offer.

Any enquiries welcomed.


Regards

Ian Donaldson

Bob is exactly right about the need for the center (third) support. I
have
discussed this at length with Darryl at Murphy. He also mentioned that
you
cannot add a center support to the fabric control surfaces. Something
about
cutting out the leading edge of the flap for the bracket structure that
screwed up
the load distribution, as I faintly recall.
Chuck Skorupa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <apat@istar.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:24 PM
Subject: RE:Split flap question

Hi Steve !

Thank you VERY much for taking the time to detail your
reasons and testing - I'm sure we'll all benefit from your input !!

If you do your sketches in black ink, I'm sure we can find
somebody to scan them in & post to the site - this would be a
valuable resource, as I suspect there will be a large group of
Elite builders who might want follow !!

I like Chuck's reasons for going to the Rebel fabric

flapperons

for his Elite - not only does he save weight, but not having the
spades will allow him to use the Dave Fife wingtips, further improving
his performance. One consideration, though, is that the center (3rd)
support is necessary if the flaps are going down farther than the
Rebel droop (18 degrees or so ...) - metal OR fabric flaps. The
strength comes from the extra support, NOT the metal covering.
It will be interesting to see if the Elite ailerons get too heavy
without the spades. (I suspect not ...) ;-)
.....bobp

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Hi All,
I find this topic quite interesting, didn't this all start by
questioning whether you can pull 40 degrees of flap on the split flap
option? ( with two hinges ) Mustn't the answer be yes..

If you have the flaperon option you can pull 18 degrees safely, but you can
still apply full aileron making the flaperon go to at least 40 degrees.
Mustn't the stress loadings have been done for all this?

If this is the case, pulling 40 degrees on the split flap option ( being a
flap, you cannot apply any more!) must be within the design parameters.

Am I missing something here?

Cheers

Alister


----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Skorupa <c_skorupa@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 7:19 PM
Subject: re: Split Flaps

Bob is exactly right about the need for the center (third) support. I
have
discussed this at length with Darryl at Murphy. He also mentioned that
you
cannot add a center support to the fabric control surfaces. Something
about
cutting out the leading edge of the flap for the bracket structure that
screwed up
the load distribution, as I faintly recall.
Chuck Skorupa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <apat@istar.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:24 PM
Subject: RE:Split flap question

Hi Steve !

Thank you VERY much for taking the time to detail your
reasons and testing - I'm sure we'll all benefit from your input !!

If you do your sketches in black ink, I'm sure we can find
somebody to scan them in & post to the site - this would be a
valuable resource, as I suspect there will be a large group of
Elite builders who might want follow !!

I like Chuck's reasons for going to the Rebel fabric

flapperons

for his Elite - not only does he save weight, but not having the
spades will allow him to use the Dave Fife wingtips, further improving
his performance. One consideration, though, is that the center (3rd)
support is necessary if the flaps are going down farther than the
Rebel droop (18 degrees or so ...) - metal OR fabric flaps. The
strength comes from the extra support, NOT the metal covering.
It will be interesting to see if the Elite ailerons get too heavy
without the spades. (I suspect not ...) ;-)
.....bobp

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In a message dated 1/24/03 3:29:14 AM Central Standard Time, yeom@xtra.co.nz
writes:

Hi All,
I find this topic quite interesting, didn't this all start by
questioning whether you can pull 40 degrees of flap on the split flap
option? ( with two hinges ) Mustn't the answer be yes..

If you have the flaperon option you can pull 18 degrees safely, but you can
still apply full aileron making the flaperon go to at least 40 degrees.
Mustn't the stress loadings have been done for all this?

If this is the case, pulling 40 degrees on the split flap option ( being a
flap, you cannot apply any more!) must be within the design parameters.

Am I missing something here?

Cheers

Alister

ALISTER
The numbers work out, but the flap on a Rebel is supported by two brackets.
Where the flaperon system is supported by three. So wouldn't 40 deg. on just
the flap be putting extra stress on just those two brackets??
Phil&Lisa Smith




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At 09:14 PM 1/24/2003 +1300, you wrote:

Hi All,
I find this topic quite interesting, didn't this all start by
questioning whether you can pull 40 degrees of flap on the split flap
option? ( with two hinges ) Mustn't the answer be yes..

If you have the flaperon option you can pull 18 degrees safely, but you can
still apply full aileron making the flaperon go to at least 40 degrees.
Mustn't the stress loadings have been done for all this?

If this is the case, pulling 40 degrees on the split flap option ( being a
flap, you cannot apply any more!) must be within the design parameters.

Am I missing something here?

Cheers

Alister

I don't think there's many rebels that can pull 18 degrees of flap in
flight. The teleflex cable seems to squash when forces on it get high. On
my rebel I can only pull about 10. This isn't a problem because in a full
slip it falls out of the sky like it's been shot.
Drew
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Well I have tried to ignore this thread, but since I am stalling before I go
out and freeze my butt off to remove another foot of snow from the laneway
I'll throw in my two cents, especially since we did awake Allister from his
warm and toasty NZ!! :>))

First off if DM says you can't do it then I guess you can't officially do
it, and I am definitely not recommending that you lower your split flaps to
40*. So, don't tell anyone I said it was okay!!

In response to Drew's, post my (alum covered) flaperons go down to 23* and
stay there pretty good thanks to a positive push pull tube arrangement and
floor mounted flap mechanism. Combine that with a 45* side slip and see how
fast the ground comes up to smitten thee!

Allister has a VERY good point that the flaperons when down and full
deflected do indeed go well beyond the 18* spelled out as full flaperons
down position, approaching about 35* on mine if I remember the measurements
correctly. This is putting 12' of control surface down into the airstream at
this angle so why couldn't you put only 6' of it down fully in a split flap
situation?? PROVIDED OF COURSE THAT YOU ADHERED STRICTLY TO FLAP EXTENSION
SPEEDS......... which can be VERY hard to do in an O-320 powered Rebel. With
the flaperons you aren't going to get full deflection due to stick forces
(and system "give"), if going faster than this sped, but you may very well
be able to lock you flaps down in a split flap setup with in a quick pull
and once locked there aerodynamics can't push them back before something
gives like a deflected flaperon would!

Phil's idea I though out a few times. Considering the above when the
flaperon is fully down and then deflected to 35/40* you have two 6' units
tied together and pulling on 3 hinges. This would apply more pressure to
each hinge than if you simply had the flap section down this much, as you
would only be able to generate half the force with a single 6' section of
flap spread between 2 hinges as the aileron would be creating very little
additional force on the center hinge.

Keep in mind though that it is not the strength of the hinge that is in
question here. The same hinge brackets and AN3 bolts are used on all the
Rebel series aircraft right up to the Moose. The worry is that the flaperon
will buckle in the center due to air loading, if locked in a non recommended
40* down position, and ruin your whole day and unfortunately (and worse yet)
your passengers as well.

Enough rambling, the snows waiting!

Cheers,
Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: <LisaFly99@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: Split Flaps

In a message dated 1/24/03 3:29:14 AM Central Standard Time,

yeom@xtra.co.nz

writes:

Hi All,
I find this topic quite interesting, didn't this all start by
questioning whether you can pull 40 degrees of flap on the split flap
option? ( with two hinges ) Mustn't the answer be yes..

If you have the flaperon option you can pull 18 degrees safely, but you

can

still apply full aileron making the flaperon go to at least 40 degrees.
Mustn't the stress loadings have been done for all this?

If this is the case, pulling 40 degrees on the split flap option ( being

a

flap, you cannot apply any more!) must be within the design parameters.

Am I missing something here?

Cheers

Alister

ALISTER
The numbers work out, but the flap on a Rebel is supported by two

brackets.

Where the flaperon system is supported by three. So wouldn't 40 deg. on

just

the flap be putting extra stress on just those two brackets??
Phil&Lisa Smith

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Hi Alister !

To continue on Wayne's line of reasoning ...

Although the combination of full flapperon and full aileron
deflection could give say 35 - 40 degrees down, it is only on ONE side !
A large part of the air load is being translated into rolling motion,
raising the wing. I'm no engineer, but to me, this would mean the
load on the flapperon was not nearly as high as if both wings had the
flaps locked down and all the drag was going onto the middle of the
flap, with none being dissipated into roll.....

In any case, if Mr. Murphy says it's "Not a Good Thing"(tm),
that's a good enough reason for me not to want to risk 'spoiling
my whole afternoon' by having a flap fold up in the middle ! ;-^)

A few years ago I watched a Super Cub on final approach have the
outboard end of his flap come loose - you wouldn't believe how
fast they roll like that !!! (He survived - because he still had
his hand on the flap lever, and quickly retracted the other one ..)
The mechanic had forgotten the nut for the flap support bolt, on
the just-completed annual inspection !!

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 09:14 PM 1/24/03 +1300, you wrote:

Hi All,
I find this topic quite interesting, didn't this all start by
questioning whether you can pull 40 degrees of flap on the split flap
option? ( with two hinges ) Mustn't the answer be yes..

If you have the flaperon option you can pull 18 degrees safely, but you can
still apply full aileron making the flaperon go to at least 40 degrees.
Mustn't the stress loadings have been done for all this?

If this is the case, pulling 40 degrees on the split flap option ( being a
flap, you cannot apply any more!) must be within the design parameters.

Am I missing something here?

Cheers

Alister


----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Skorupa <c_skorupa@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 7:19 PM
Subject: re: Split Flaps

Bob is exactly right about the need for the center (third) support. I
have
discussed this at length with Darryl at Murphy. He also mentioned that
you
cannot add a center support to the fabric control surfaces. Something
about
cutting out the leading edge of the flap for the bracket structure that
screwed up
the load distribution, as I faintly recall.
Chuck Skorupa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <apat@istar.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:24 PM
Subject: RE:Split flap question

Hi Steve !

Thank you VERY much for taking the time to detail your
reasons and testing - I'm sure we'll all benefit from your input !!

If you do your sketches in black ink, I'm sure we can find
somebody to scan them in & post to the site - this would be a
valuable resource, as I suspect there will be a large group of
Elite builders who might want follow !!

I like Chuck's reasons for going to the Rebel fabric

flapperons

for his Elite - not only does he save weight, but not having the
spades will allow him to use the Dave Fife wingtips, further improving
his performance. One consideration, though, is that the center (3rd)
support is necessary if the flaps are going down farther than the
Rebel droop (18 degrees or so ...) - metal OR fabric flaps. The
strength comes from the extra support, NOT the metal covering.
It will be interesting to see if the Elite ailerons get too heavy
without the spades. (I suspect not ...) ;-)
.....bobp

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----- Original Message -----
From: Drew Dalgleish
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: Split Flaps

I don't think there's many rebels that can pull 18 degrees of flap in
flight. The teleflex cable seems to squash when forces on it get
high. On
my rebel I can only pull about 10. This isn't a problem because in a
full
slip it falls out of the sky like it's been shot.
Drew

YES ! and I have used that very feature to get me IN to a few hairy /
short / interesting private strips already ! :-)
Rick Harper
541R




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In a message dated 1/24/03 9:11:42 AM Central Standard Time,
oifa@irishfield.on.ca writes:

Phil's idea I though out a few times. Considering the above when the
flaperon is fully down and then deflected to 35/40* you have two 6' units
tied together and pulling on 3 hinges. This would apply more pressure to
each hinge than if you simply had the flap section down this much, as you
would only be able to generate half the force with a single 6' section of
flap spread between 2 hinges as the aileron would be creating very little
additional force on the center hinge.

WAYNE
Considering I was speaking of locking down just the flap section to Max
degree. Kind of like throwing out a couple of air brakes. As opposed to full
length flaperons at full deflection and then stick force applied fully. IMHO
I believe flap only would create more stress to the system. How long would
you keep full deflection in, and it would be at landing speeds. Compared to
cranking in the flaps only and diving for the runway as is seen on so many
Cessnas. The Elite took care of the stress problem with an extra flap
bracket. But on the Rebel split flap system I think it could be easy for
someone to get in the Cessna habit. I sould have been more clear in what I
meant to say :)
Phil&Lisa Smith




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In response to Drew's, post my (alum covered) flaperons go down to 23* and
stay there pretty good thanks to a positive push pull tube arrangement and
floor mounted flap mechanism. Combine that with a 45* side slip and see

how

fast the ground comes up to smitten thee!

Hi Wayne,
This setup for your flaps appears to have a lot of merit,
how do you think it performs against the cable system and are there any
photos in the archives of your floor mounted system? ( we are down to a cool
+20*C today Wayne!)

Cheers

Alister




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G'day guys ...

We held our bi-monthly BBQ at Hoxton Park Airport today ... good roll up
planes in from as far away as Tocumwal, Orange & Port Macquarie (several
hundred miles Nth, Sth & West !)

Temperature was a "warm" 42' C !

I took a few people for a quick circuit ... vis' down to around 2-3
miles due to smoke from the bushfires ... which are EVERYWHERE ! :-(

Rick & Wendy Harper
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: yeom
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Split Flaps

In response to Drew's, post my (alum covered) flaperons go down to

23* and

stay there pretty good thanks to a positive push pull tube

arrangement and

floor mounted flap mechanism. Combine that with a 45* side slip and

see
how

fast the ground comes up to smitten thee!

Hi Wayne,
This setup for your flaps appears to have a lot of
merit,
how do you think it performs against the cable system and are there
any
photos in the archives of your floor mounted system? ( we are down to
a cool
+20*C today Wayne!)

Cheers

Alister




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Phil, I guess I should have combined my reply to you and Allister in the
same paragraph with "PROVIDED OF COURSE THAT YOU ADHERED STRICTLY TO FLAP
EXTENSION
SPEEDS......... which can be VERY hard to do in an O-320 powered Rebel". I
know what you are saying about full flaps and diving for the deck in a
Cessna!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <LisaFly99@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: Split Flaps

In a message dated 1/24/03 9:11:42 AM Central Standard Time,
oifa@irishfield.on.ca writes:

Phil's idea I though out a few times. Considering the above when the
flaperon is fully down and then deflected to 35/40* you have two 6'

units

tied together and pulling on 3 hinges. This would apply more pressure to
each hinge than if you simply had the flap section down this much, as

you

would only be able to generate half the force with a single 6' section

of

flap spread between 2 hinges as the aileron would be creating very

little

additional force on the center hinge.

WAYNE
Considering I was speaking of locking down just the flap section to Max
degree. Kind of like throwing out a couple of air brakes. As opposed to

full

length flaperons at full deflection and then stick force applied fully.

IMHO

I believe flap only would create more stress to the system. How long would
you keep full deflection in, and it would be at landing speeds. Compared

to

cranking in the flaps only and diving for the runway as is seen on so many
Cessnas. The Elite took care of the stress problem with an extra flap
bracket. But on the Rebel split flap system I think it could be easy for
someone to get in the Cessna habit. I sould have been more clear in what I
meant to say :)
Phil&Lisa Smith

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Allister and All, I don't know if I would bother going through all the extra
work again to get the mechanically linked flaps. It was an extra 80 hours or
so AFTER all the many, many, hours of designing it and figuring out the arm
lengths and bellcrank ratios to get it to work correctly, with the small 1
13/16" or so of movement that there is at the end of the mixer arm (from
full reflex to full flaps). Mind you it does hold them down better than the
sloppy/flexy teleflex cable so I guess I probably would do it again if it
was for myself. There is still a bit of flexing left in the control
horns/mixer assembly rocking, etc, with mine, but I sure don't have as much
of the "automatic flap deployment" that the teleflex cable gives.

There are no pictures of my system in the archives, nor do I have any on
file in my computer. If it gets a bit warmer around here and I find some
time in the next few weeks I will pull my safety guard off the mixer
assembly and take some pictures of the connection there and the handle/push
pull system.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "yeom" <yeom@xtra.co.nz>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Split Flaps

In response to Drew's, post my (alum covered) flaperons go down to 23*

and

stay there pretty good thanks to a positive push pull tube arrangement

and

floor mounted flap mechanism. Combine that with a 45* side slip and see

how

fast the ground comes up to smitten thee!

Hi Wayne,
This setup for your flaps appears to have a lot of merit,
how do you think it performs against the cable system and are there any
photos in the archives of your floor mounted system? ( we are down to a

cool

+20*C today Wayne!)

Cheers

Alister

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Allister and All, I don't know if I would bother going through all the

extra

work again to get the mechanically linked flaps.

Thanks for the reply Wayne, I guess it comes down to whether it performs or
not. Is the difference noticable or only marginal?

Also do you agree the reflex increases cruise speed and smooths the ride out
in lumpy conditions?

You are a great source of info aren't you Wayne!! :>)

Cheers

Alister




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