The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm**

If it were me (and it has happened) I'd stick to the next size up and keep the hole as small as possible. Especially considering you probably don't have the edge distance for 3/16.

Kirk
773E

From: kriening@rogers.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:11:41 -0400

If you have oversized a rivet hole, is the normal practice to insert a 5/32
cherry rivet, or to drill out to the even bigger 3/16. I noticed on a couple
of other builds that the replacement rivet was smaller than 3/16 but had to
be larger than 1/8. Decided to replace the fus 26 with .032 so had to drill
out all the rivets... now left with some oversized holes.

Roland
R56

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm**

A suggestion in case you didn't know this. The thing that I found works
best when drilling out Avex rivets is to use a #30 to remove just the
head, same as with a solid rivet and then use a #40 to drill out the
tail. The head will come off with just a few turns of the drill bit
using light pressure and a very slow speed. The #40 to drill the tail
works because it is undersized and Avex rivets are so soft that it will
twist the tail out. The is only a very small amount of stretching caused
by the previously set rivet.

Bob.
773E

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm**

Roland,

Are you punching out the mandril? I took a punch slightly larger than the hole, sanded it on the belt sander to fit just inside the mandril. A light tap will pop it out then you can drill the rivet out very easily without oversizing the hole. I just took some of the rivets out of my firewall to install the motor mount doublers. Got that done now back to making progress.

Curtis

175R

From: kriening@rogers.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:11:41 -0400

If you have oversized a rivet hole, is the normal practice to insert a 5/32
cherry rivet, or to drill out to the even bigger 3/16. I noticed on a couple
of other builds that the replacement rivet was smaller than 3/16 but had to
be larger than 1/8. Decided to replace the fus 26 with .032 so had to drill
out all the rivets... now left with some oversized holes.

Roland
R56

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm**

As a Flight-line mechanic for Boeing many years ago, I'll tell you how we
were trained to take out rivets. Tools needed, spring loaded center punch,
a set of flat punches and your drills. Center punch the rivet head, drill
the rivet head but not all the way to the hole. Use the proper size flat
punch in the drilled rivet head and snap the rivet head off. Then use a
flat punch smaller than the hole and punch out the rivet shank. 9 times out
of 10 you can use the same size rivet you punched out.

On 7/3/2010 6:58 PM, rebel-builders@dcsol.com wrote to wayira:

-> I never thought about getting a punch that small. I just used an old stem
-> to punch out the mandrell. If I can get to the back side I'll just grab the
-> rivet tail with a pair of side cutters and twist it out. If you're trying
-> to hide your boo-boo's there are 5/32" solid rivets with 1/8" size heads
-> available. When drilling out rivets I use a 1/8" bit instead of #30.
->
-> At 06:15 PM 03/07/2010 -0700, you wrote:
-> >
-> >Roland,
-> >
-> > Are you punching out the mandril? I took a punch slightly larger than
-> the hole, sanded it on the belt sander to fit just inside the mandril. A
-> light tap will pop it out then you can drill the rivet out very easily
-> without oversizing the hole. I just took some of the rivets out of my
-> firewall to install the motor mount doublers. Got that done now back to
-> making progress.
-> >
-> >Curtis
-> >
-> >175R
-> >
-> >> From: kriening@rogers.com
-> >> To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> >> Subject: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size
-> >> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:11:41 -0400
-> >>
-> >> If you have oversized a rivet hole, is the normal practice to insert
a 5/32
-> >> cherry rivet, or to drill out to the even bigger 3/16. I noticed on a
-> couple
-> >> of other builds that the replacement rivet was smaller than 3/16 but
had to
-> >> be larger than 1/8. Decided to replace the fus 26 with .032 so had to
drill
-> >> out all the rivets... now left with some oversized holes.
-> >>
-> >> Roland
-> >> R56
->
-> Drew
->
->
->
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->

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm**

I never thought about getting a punch that small. I just used an old stem
to punch out the mandrell. If I can get to the back side I'll just grab the
rivet tail with a pair of side cutters and twist it out. If you're trying
to hide your boo-boo's there are 5/32" solid rivets with 1/8" size heads
available. When drilling out rivets I use a 1/8" bit instead of #30.

At 06:15 PM 03/07/2010 -0700, you wrote:

Roland,

Are you punching out the mandril? I took a punch slightly larger than

the hole, sanded it on the belt sander to fit just inside the mandril. A
light tap will pop it out then you can drill the rivet out very easily
without oversizing the hole. I just took some of the rivets out of my
firewall to install the motor mount doublers. Got that done now back to
making progress.

Curtis

175R

From: kriening@rogers.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:11:41 -0400

If you have oversized a rivet hole, is the normal practice to insert a 5/32
cherry rivet, or to drill out to the even bigger 3/16. I noticed on a

couple

of other builds that the replacement rivet was smaller than 3/16 but had to
be larger than 1/8. Decided to replace the fus 26 with .032 so had to drill
out all the rivets... now left with some oversized holes.

Roland
R56

Drew

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm**

Roland,

I know what you mean, it is a learning experience. Your #40 bit was probably hitting the mandril so it was easier for it to wander into the soft aluminum rivet. A friend who built a Rebel clued me into driving the mandril out first, the drill goes right down the center without wandering. I had a little training from Boeing on rivet removal with solid rivets. The Avex are a lot easier to remove than the solid rivets.

Do you have the wings or tail feathers on yet? I am getting things ready to hang the wings and set up the struts.

Curtis

175R

N175CL

From: kriening@rogers.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 22:34:29 -0400

Curtis,

Haven't had to drill out any rivets yet, so this is a new experience. I
started by drilling out the stem with a #40 then drilling off the head with
a #30. Unfortunately the #40 slipped around a bit. I am now doing it in
reverse order, by taking off the head first with a #30, then punching out
the rest. Much cleaner, but looks like I will have some "learner" (bigger)
rivets showing on my plane. Not going for prizes, just structural integrity.

Should be starting the cabin floor this week. Trying to put in 10-20 hours a
week. Plan is to have it on gear by Sept.

Roland
R56

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Curtis
Langholz
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:15 PM
To: REBEL BUILDERS
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size

Roland,

Are you punching out the mandril? I took a punch slightly larger than the
hole, sanded it on the belt sander to fit just inside the mandril. A light
tap will pop it out then you can drill the rivet out very easily without
oversizing the hole. I just took some of the rivets out of my firewall to
install the motor mount doublers. Got that done now back to making progress.

Curtis

175R

From: kriening@rogers.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:11:41 -0400

If you have oversized a rivet hole, is the normal practice to insert a
5/32
cherry rivet, or to drill out to the even bigger 3/16. I noticed on a
couple
of other builds that the replacement rivet was smaller than 3/16 but had
to
be larger than 1/8. Decided to replace the fus 26 with .032 so had to
drill
out all the rivets... now left with some oversized holes.

Roland
R56

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm**

Curtis,

Haven't had to drill out any rivets yet, so this is a new experience. I
started by drilling out the stem with a #40 then drilling off the head with
a #30. Unfortunately the #40 slipped around a bit. I am now doing it in
reverse order, by taking off the head first with a #30, then punching out
the rest. Much cleaner, but looks like I will have some "learner" (bigger)
rivets showing on my plane. Not going for prizes, just structural integrity.

Should be starting the cabin floor this week. Trying to put in 10-20 hours a
week. Plan is to have it on gear by Sept.

Roland
R56

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Curtis
Langholz
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:15 PM
To: REBEL BUILDERS
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size

Roland,

Are you punching out the mandril? I took a punch slightly larger than the
hole, sanded it on the belt sander to fit just inside the mandril. A light
tap will pop it out then you can drill the rivet out very easily without
oversizing the hole. I just took some of the rivets out of my firewall to
install the motor mount doublers. Got that done now back to making progress.

Curtis

175R

From: kriening@rogers.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:11:41 -0400

If you have oversized a rivet hole, is the normal practice to insert a

5/32

cherry rivet, or to drill out to the even bigger 3/16. I noticed on a

couple

of other builds that the replacement rivet was smaller than 3/16 but had

to

be larger than 1/8. Decided to replace the fus 26 with .032 so had to

drill

out all the rivets... now left with some oversized holes.

Roland
R56

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm**

Wings are hanging in the garage, still need to be closed, and one still
needs inspection. I am waiting until the fuselage is near completion to
order an inspection of the second wing and the fus. Then the wings will be
hung, etc. Plan is to get the fus on gear by the end of summer, then use the
table to close the wings.

Roland
R56

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Curtis
Langholz
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 11:31 PM
To: REBEL BUILDERS
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size

Roland,

I know what you mean, it is a learning experience. Your #40 bit was
probably hitting the mandril so it was easier for it to wander into the soft
aluminum rivet. A friend who built a Rebel clued me into driving the mandril
out first, the drill goes right down the center without wandering. I had a
little training from Boeing on rivet removal with solid rivets. The Avex are
a lot easier to remove than the solid rivets.

Do you have the wings or tail feathers on yet? I am getting things ready to
hang the wings and set up the struts.

Curtis

175R

N175CL

From: kriening@rogers.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 22:34:29 -0400

Curtis,

Haven't had to drill out any rivets yet, so this is a new experience. I
started by drilling out the stem with a #40 then drilling off the head

with

a #30. Unfortunately the #40 slipped around a bit. I am now doing it in
reverse order, by taking off the head first with a #30, then punching out
the rest. Much cleaner, but looks like I will have some "learner" (bigger)
rivets showing on my plane. Not going for prizes, just structural

integrity.

Should be starting the cabin floor this week. Trying to put in 10-20 hours

a

week. Plan is to have it on gear by Sept.

Roland
R56

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

Curtis

Langholz
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:15 PM
To: REBEL BUILDERS
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size

Roland,

Are you punching out the mandril? I took a punch slightly larger than the
hole, sanded it on the belt sander to fit just inside the mandril. A light
tap will pop it out then you can drill the rivet out very easily without
oversizing the hole. I just took some of the rivets out of my firewall to
install the motor mount doublers. Got that done now back to making

progress.

Curtis

175R

From: kriening@rogers.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rivet Size
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:11:41 -0400

If you have oversized a rivet hole, is the normal practice to insert a
5/32
cherry rivet, or to drill out to the even bigger 3/16. I noticed on a
couple
of other builds that the replacement rivet was smaller than 3/16 but had
to
be larger than 1/8. Decided to replace the fus 26 with .032 so had to
drill
out all the rivets... now left with some oversized holes.

Roland
R56

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm**

Everyone has a favorite technique for rivet removal. I drill with a
7/64" bit (one size small than 1/8). Typically that lets me break off
the head of about 90% of the rivets to be removed by using the blunt end
of a second 7/64 bit. Then you only have to use a punch to drive the
remaining mandrels down a little deeper so you can drill a bit deeper. I
never drill much deeper than the rivet head. An automatic spring loaded
punch is usually sufficient.

Since the mandrel end is magnetic, with it still in the shop head you
can retrieve the drilled out rivets with a magnet if it is in a hidden
area. A good magnet will even grab the shop head if there is a sheet of
aluminum between it and the shop head so that you can walk the head to a
convenient access point.

For stubborn rivets in thin material, I place a hunk of steel with a
hole drilled slightly larger than the shop head behind the rivet. That
makes it easy for a punch to drive the rivet out of the hole.

For oval holes, a casual observer is unlikely to notice a few standard
5/32" avex rivet heads mixed in with 1/8" ones. I get better results
using a round needle file to round out the oval hole before (or rather
than) drilling it larger. If edge distance is a concern, one can
sometimes backup the hole with a doubler. A fabricated aluminum "washer"
under the shop head might even be sufficient. Sometimes you just have to
start over with new parts but it never hurts to get some other opinions.
A few oval holes might not matter if you have room to add a few extra
rivets in the area. 2D minimum edge distance and 4D minimum rivet center
to rivet center distance is recommended as I recall.

Ken

Curtis Langholz wrote:

Roland,

I know what you mean, it is a learning experience. Your #40 bit was
probably hitting the mandril so it was easier for it to wander into
the soft aluminum rivet. A friend who built a Rebel clued me into
driving the mandril out first, the drill goes right down the center
without wandering. I had a little training from Boeing on rivet
removal with solid rivets. The Avex are a lot easier to remove than
the solid rivets.

Do you have the wings or tail feathers on yet? I am getting things
ready to hang the wings and set up the struts.

Curtis

175R

N175CL

From: kriening@rogers.com To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com Subject: RE:
[rebel-builders] Rivet Size Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 22:34:29 -0400

Curtis,

Haven't had to drill out any rivets yet, so this is a new
experience. I started by drilling out the stem with a #40 then
drilling off the head with a #30. Unfortunately the #40 slipped
around a bit. I am now doing it in reverse order, by taking off the
head first with a #30, then punching out the rest. Much cleaner,
but looks like I will have some "learner" (bigger) rivets showing
on my plane. Not going for prizes, just structural integrity.

Should be starting the cabin floor this week. Trying to put in
10-20 hours a week. Plan is to have it on gear by Sept.

Roland R56

-----Original Message----- From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Curtis Langholz Sent:
Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:15 PM To: REBEL BUILDERS Subject: RE:
[rebel-builders] Rivet Size

Roland,

Are you punching out the mandril? I took a punch slightly larger
than the hole, sanded it on the belt sander to fit just inside the
mandril. A light tap will pop it out then you can drill the rivet
out very easily without oversizing the hole. I just took some of
the rivets out of my firewall to install the motor mount doublers.
Got that done now back to making progress.

Curtis

175R

From: kriening@rogers.com To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com Subject:
[rebel-builders] Rivet Size Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:11:41 -0400

If you have oversized a rivet hole, is the normal practice to
insert a
5/32
cherry rivet, or to drill out to the even bigger 3/16. I noticed
on a
couple
of other builds that the replacement rivet was smaller than 3/16
but had
to
be larger than 1/8. Decided to replace the fus 26 with .032 so
had to
drill
out all the rivets... now left with some oversized holes.

Roland R56

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