The Murphy Builders Site

I have been reading with interest the info on empty weights for Rebels. Just
as a reminder, I plan on flying mine as a Light Sport, so the subject of
weight is important to me. Without kicking that old hornets nest of Rotax
vs. Lycoming vs. any other brand of engine, I do have a question.

I have not researched this carefully, but my initial check seems to tell me
that an Lycoming O-320 is only a handful of pounds heaver than a Lyc O-235.
Can anybody with real world experience confirm or debunk this?

I know that the devil is in the details, but looking at some charts seems to
indicate that the O-320 is about 10 pounds heaver than the O-235.

I got very interested in the (vaporware) Lycoming IO-233 that was shown at
Oshkosh a couple of years ago. As I recall it was supposed to be 120 hp and
210 pounds. But the deal breaker was that it was going to cost upwards of
$21,000. (I never really did get a price, and the Lycoming reps seemed to
all go stupid when you tried to talk to them about buying one.)

But back to the O-235 vs. the O-320. If I can gain 35 horsepower at a cost
of 10 pounds, it would seem like a good move.

What do you think?

Tim Hickey
2658 300th St
Montrose, Iowa 52639
Home 319 463-7047
Cell 319 795-2684




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Tim,
You and I seem to be traveling the same road. I have been contemplating doing the same thing and I also came to the conclusion that for the little extra weight I would use the O-320. I am thinking that if a guy were to use a light weight starter, small battery, NO alternator, and a few other weight saving items a guy can have a decent weight savings. One of my current planes is similarly configured, (starter but no alternator) and the battery lasts quite a long time before needing a charge. I used to keep it on floats all summer and all I used was a solar panel to keep the battery charged. I even ran my GPS without any issues.
Another member on here has been folowing the ULPower engines and they look very promising also. It'll be a long time til I get to the point of needing an engine....heck, it'll be electric by then for all I know. LOL
Keith R661

--- On Wed, 6/30/10, Tim Hickey <tjhickey@iowatelecom.net> wrote:


From: Tim Hickey <tjhickey@iowatelecom.net>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Engine weights
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 9:14 PM


I have been reading with interest the info on empty weights for Rebels. Just
as a reminder, I plan on flying mine as a Light Sport, so the subject of
weight is important to me.

Hi Tim !

Having owned both an O-235 Rebel and an O-320 Rebel, I'd say
from my (limited) experiences that the real world difference is more
like about + 35 lb. ..... This can vary widely, depending on
the model of engine ! The finished O-235 Rebel weighed
835 lb. - the O-320 weighed 966 lb. -- there were other
differences: the O-235 had bungees, the O-320 had die spring
gear - maybe 5 lb. or so there, plus several patches & mods
that added another 20 or 30 lb., plus more steam guages,
which added about 30 - 40 more pounds (incl. air pump...),
and the O-320 has JDM wheels and brakes - the O-235 had the
old Matco golds..... Both had metal props.

I would still go for lighter --- weight is the biggest single
difference in performance ! The 80 hp Rotax Rebel could take
off in 128 ft. on wheels, 6 seconds on floats -- and land and stop
in 140 ft. on wheels. It weighed 716 lb. empty. The O-235 Rebel
took about 3 times as much !
And the O-320 needs a bit more ... but it does climb faster.

.....but then, you know I LOVED that Rotax !! ;-)

(A new 912 is about $17,300 CAD, and another thousand or so
will get you a new 912-S 100 hp. -- the 80 hp. weighed 128 lb. !)
I think the 100 hp. with muffler & rad, installed, is about 158 lb.)

My next Rebel will be a Rotax 912-S 100 hp., on 1500 amphibs.

If someone wants a 400 hr. firewall-forward O-320, complete with
prop, engine instruments and some steam guages, I'm considering
just selling mine off and installing the 912. I can do that,
because my firewall is in the normal position, not moved back 3".
I should be able to get the 912 installed and have a few $$$ left over.
It's either that or sell this Rebel complete and start again ...

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

On June 30, 2010 10:14:23 pm Tim Hickey wrote:

I have been reading with interest the info on empty weights for Rebels.
Just as a reminder, I plan on flying mine as a Light Sport, so the subject
of weight is important to me. Without kicking that old hornets nest of
Rotax vs. Lycoming vs. any other brand of engine, I do have a question.

I have not researched this carefully, but my initial check seems to tell me
that an Lycoming O-320 is only a handful of pounds heaver than a Lyc O-235.
Can anybody with real world experience confirm or debunk this?

I know that the devil is in the details, but looking at some charts seems
to indicate that the O-320 is about 10 pounds heaver than the O-235.

I got very interested in the (vaporware) Lycoming IO-233 that was shown at
Oshkosh a couple of years ago. As I recall it was supposed to be 120 hp and
210 pounds. But the deal breaker was that it was going to cost upwards of
$21,000. (I never really did get a price, and the Lycoming reps seemed to
all go stupid when you tried to talk to them about buying one.)

But back to the O-235 vs. the O-320. If I can gain 35 horsepower at a cost
of 10 pounds, it would seem like a good move.

What do you think?

Tim Hickey
2658 300th St
Montrose, Iowa 52639
Home 319 463-7047
Cell 319 795-2684

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TIM: According to the Lycoming literature that I have, the 0-235-C weighs
213 lb. the 0-320-A-E is 244 lb. I think that, that includes the "mags"


Keith P. 318R

On 6/30/2010 6:14 PM, tjhickey@iowatelecom.net wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I have been reading with interest the info on empty weights for Rebels.
Just
-> as a reminder, I plan on flying mine as a Light Sport, so the subject of
-> weight is important to me. Without kicking that old hornets nest of Rotax
-> vs. Lycoming vs. any other brand of engine, I do have a question.
->
-> I have not researched this carefully, but my initial check seems to tell me
-> that an Lycoming O-320 is only a handful of pounds heaver than a Lyc O-
235.
-> Can anybody with real world experience confirm or debunk this?
->
-> I know that the devil is in the details, but looking at some charts seems to
-> indicate that the O-320 is about 10 pounds heaver than the O-235.
->
-> I got very interested in the (vaporware) Lycoming IO-233 that was shown
at
-> Oshkosh a couple of years ago. As I recall it was supposed to be 120 hp
and
-> 210 pounds. But the deal breaker was that it was going to cost upwards
of
-> $21,000. (I never really did get a price, and the Lycoming reps seemed to
-> all go stupid when you tried to talk to them about buying one.)
->
-> But back to the O-235 vs. the O-320. If I can gain 35 horsepower at a
cost
-> of 10 pounds, it would seem like a good move.
->
-> What do you think?
->
-> Tim Hickey
-> 2658 300th St
-> Montrose, Iowa 52639
-> Home 319 463-7047
-> Cell 319 795-2684
->




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Go back to bed???? It's to early

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
kpierson@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:30 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Engine weights

TIM: According to the Lycoming literature that I have, the 0-235-C weighs
213 lb. the 0-320-A-E is 244 lb. I think that, that includes the "mags"


Keith P. 318R

On 6/30/2010 6:14 PM, tjhickey@iowatelecom.net wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I have been reading with interest the info on empty weights for Rebels.
Just
-> as a reminder, I plan on flying mine as a Light Sport, so the subject of
-> weight is important to me. Without kicking that old hornets nest of
Rotax
-> vs. Lycoming vs. any other brand of engine, I do have a question.
->
-> I have not researched this carefully, but my initial check seems to tell
me
-> that an Lycoming O-320 is only a handful of pounds heaver than a Lyc O-
235.
-> Can anybody with real world experience confirm or debunk this?
->
-> I know that the devil is in the details, but looking at some charts seems
to
-> indicate that the O-320 is about 10 pounds heaver than the O-235.
->
-> I got very interested in the (vaporware) Lycoming IO-233 that was shown
at
-> Oshkosh a couple of years ago. As I recall it was supposed to be 120 hp
and
-> 210 pounds. But the deal breaker was that it was going to cost upwards
of
-> $21,000. (I never really did get a price, and the Lycoming reps seemed to

-> all go stupid when you tried to talk to them about buying one.)
->
-> But back to the O-235 vs. the O-320. If I can gain 35 horsepower at a
cost
-> of 10 pounds, it would seem like a good move.
->
-> What do you think?
->
-> Tim Hickey
-> 2658 300th St
-> Montrose, Iowa 52639
-> Home 319 463-7047
-> Cell 319 795-2684
->




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This discussion on engine weights got my curiosity up so I used our
reasonably accurate bath room scale and weighed my newly overhauled un-hung
Lyc. O-235-C2C.

The engine had the following accessories mounted; Sky-Tec starter 122-12LS
G, New Slick mags and harness, starter ring gear, Carburetor MA-3SPA, oil
screen only, and Plane Power light weight alternator AL12EI60C.

Total weight was 229.5 Lbs.



My engine Did NOT have the following items attached;

Fuel or Vacuum pump, oil filter, oil cooler and no engine baffles and no
engine oil.

Even though I used a 300 Lbs. bath room scale I would still think it fairly
accurate.

Charlie E. 802R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Hickey" <tjhickey@iowatelecom.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Engine weights

I have been reading with interest the info on empty weights for Rebels.
Just
as a reminder, I plan on flying mine as a Light Sport, so the subject of
weight is important to me. Without kicking that old hornets nest of Rotax
vs. Lycoming vs. any other brand of engine, I do have a question.

I have not researched this carefully, but my initial check seems to tell
me
that an Lycoming O-320 is only a handful of pounds heaver than a Lyc
O-235.
Can anybody with real world experience confirm or debunk this?

I know that the devil is in the details, but looking at some charts seems
to
indicate that the O-320 is about 10 pounds heaver than the O-235.

I got very interested in the (vaporware) Lycoming IO-233 that was shown at
Oshkosh a couple of years ago. As I recall it was supposed to be 120 hp
and
210 pounds. But the deal breaker was that it was going to cost upwards of
$21,000. (I never really did get a price, and the Lycoming reps seemed to
all go stupid when you tried to talk to them about buying one.)

But back to the O-235 vs. the O-320. If I can gain 35 horsepower at a cost
of 10 pounds, it would seem like a good move.

What do you think?

Tim Hickey
2658 300th St
Montrose, Iowa 52639
Home 319 463-7047
Cell 319 795-2684




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Charlie's number allows apples to apples comparisons of actual installed
weights, with two of the common lighter weight alternatives.

For example, the 120 HP Jabiru 3300, comes with carb, fuel pump, oil filter,
alternator, baffles and exhaust included in its current weight of 178 lbs.
Starting at Charlie's 230 lbs., and adding all those extras, most of which
will be essential to most builders, the O-235 will be at least 65 lbs.
heavier, but only if all those items add no more than 15 lbs. -- not too
likely. Being heavier and wider, presumably the O-235 also will also have a
heavier engine mount and cowl. The installed weight difference vs. a 100 HP
Rotax 912ULS would be even more, perhaps something on the order of at least
85 lbs.

Obviously, there are other important differences among all these engines,
which will be significant one way or another to builders -- and they've been
amply cussed and discussed elsewhere. (It bears mentioning though, that an
often overlooked difference is that both Jabiru and Rotax cowls are
significantly narrower at the nose, reducing parasitic drag.) However, on
weight considerations alone, an installed weight difference of at least 65
lbs. -- probably more with mount and cowl taken into account -- is not
insignificant. To paraphrase Senator Dirksen's famous comment on the federal
budget, 5 lbs. here and 10 lbs. there, and pretty soon you're talking about
real weight.

Ron
254R


On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Charlie Eubanks <charlie@troyairpark.com>wrote:

This discussion on engine weights got my curiosity up so I used our
reasonably accurate bath room scale and weighed my newly overhauled un-hung
Lyc. O-235-C2C.

The engine had the following accessories mounted; Sky-Tec starter 122-12LS
G, New Slick mags and harness, starter ring gear, Carburetor MA-3SPA, oil
screen only, and Plane Power light weight alternator AL12EI60C.

Total weight was 229.5 Lbs.



My engine Did NOT have the following items attached;

Fuel or Vacuum pump, oil filter, oil cooler and no engine baffles and no
engine oil.

Even though I used a 300 Lbs. bath room scale I would still think it fairly
accurate.

Charlie E. 802R

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Ron
I total agree with you. The advantage of the weight difference in the Rotax
and the Jabiru will no doubt show an increase in performance and economy.
The question I was trying to relate to today was the weight differences
between the O-235 & a like equipped O-320, what ever that is.
As you say there other important differences. One of which Cost. Last Feb
when I priced a 100 HP Rotax and a 3" extended engine mount it was right at
$25,000. I understand that price has improved since but used ones are still
hard to find. My O-235 mount came with my kit and for 1/2 that price I now
have a O-235 with a fresh overhaul. If I can keep the airframe weigh down
(1,320 gross) it should still preform well.
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Engine weights

Charlie's number allows apples to apples comparisons of actual installed
weights, with two of the common lighter weight alternatives.

For example, the 120 HP Jabiru 3300, comes with carb, fuel pump, oil
filter,
alternator, baffles and exhaust included in its current weight of 178 lbs.
Starting at Charlie's 230 lbs., and adding all those extras, most of which
will be essential to most builders, the O-235 will be at least 65 lbs.
heavier, but only if all those items add no more than 15 lbs. -- not too
likely. Being heavier and wider, presumably the O-235 also will also have
a
heavier engine mount and cowl. The installed weight difference vs. a 100
HP
Rotax 912ULS would be even more, perhaps something on the order of at
least
85 lbs.

Obviously, there are other important differences among all these engines,
which will be significant one way or another to builders -- and they've
been
amply cussed and discussed elsewhere. (It bears mentioning though, that an
often overlooked difference is that both Jabiru and Rotax cowls are
significantly narrower at the nose, reducing parasitic drag.) However, on
weight considerations alone, an installed weight difference of at least 65
lbs. -- probably more with mount and cowl taken into account -- is not
insignificant. To paraphrase Senator Dirksen's famous comment on the
federal
budget, 5 lbs. here and 10 lbs. there, and pretty soon you're talking
about
real weight.

Ron
254R


On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Charlie Eubanks
<charlie@troyairpark.com>wrote:

This discussion on engine weights got my curiosity up so I used our
reasonably accurate bath room scale and weighed my newly overhauled
un-hung
Lyc. O-235-C2C.

The engine had the following accessories mounted; Sky-Tec starter
122-12LS
G, New Slick mags and harness, starter ring gear, Carburetor MA-3SPA, oil
screen only, and Plane Power light weight alternator AL12EI60C.

Total weight was 229.5 Lbs.



My engine Did NOT have the following items attached;

Fuel or Vacuum pump, oil filter, oil cooler and no engine baffles and no
engine oil.

Even though I used a 300 Lbs. bath room scale I would still think it
fairly
accurate.

Charlie E. 802R

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Understood, Charlie. Although I'm a Jabiru partisan (at least until I'm not
:-)) I just wanted to submit the weight data points. They are three quite
different engines, in weight as well as other attributes.

The Rotax and Jabiru prices are both exchange rate sensitive, of course. A
year and a half ago, you could get a new Jabiru 3300 for $16,400 -- deep in
the trenches of the economic super cycle. Don't know what it is now.

Ron
254R


On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Charlie Eubanks <charlie@troyairpark.com>wrote:

Ron
I total agree with you. The advantage of the weight difference in the Rotax
and the Jabiru will no doubt show an increase in performance and economy.
The question I was trying to relate to today was the weight differences
between the O-235 & a like equipped O-320, what ever that is.
As you say there other important differences. One of which Cost. Last Feb
when I priced a 100 HP Rotax and a 3" extended engine mount it was right at
$25,000. I understand that price has improved since but used ones are still
hard to find. My O-235 mount came with my kit and for 1/2 that price I now
have a O-235 with a fresh overhaul. If I can keep the airframe weigh down
(1,320 gross) it should still preform well.
Charlie E. 802R

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