The Murphy Builders Site

Wayne
What is the spec. on the nutplates for the hinge bolts, is there a MS or other number (A/C Spruce ref: NA17, K2000, MK2000)? What is the standard practise for re-use of these nutplates (that is, more than one insertion of the bolt, per AC43...etc.)? My local inspector tells me it is: use it once and replace, so the nut supplied by MAM would seem to make more sense.
I think you said you use a one lug rivet-in-place nutplate, is the rivet simply placed in line with the centres of the two bolt holes (on their vertical centreline)?
Thanks
Dave R.

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Ian, you are only placing the extra control horn <JUST> to drill the extra hole. This horn is then marked for the side it was drilled for and is used on the outboard end of the cabin's torque tube. The extra hole you drill is to allow 2 bolts to hold the wing and cabin horns together after you install the wings. You <DO NOT> need a captive nut inside the torque tube on the wing. You <WILL> install one in the cabin outboard tube plug though and install a stud (bolt with head cut off) into it to locate the cabin tube into the open hole on the wing tube. BTW, did you get those one lug anchor nuts I sent you installed okay, on your rear spar, to hold your flaperon hinge brackets on?? Regards,Wayne G. O'Sheawww.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: allsure (allsure@iprimus.com.au)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 9:42 AM
Subject: Wing assembly
G'day I'm confused! I am assembling the wing and I have the split flap option. The manual gives details of the full span flaperons but makes no mention of assembling the flaps. I have used the template provided to set the ailerons, but I do not understand just how the control horns(CC43) are asembled.The manual says to assemble a CC43 onto the end plug and drill 8 #11holes, and then temporarily bolt another horn onto the first one and drill a further #11 hole near the end. As I then understand you rivet the first horn on, and then bolt the second one to it.Questions:If the root control horn is riveted to the end plug first, does the second horn just get bolted on over the rivet heads?How do you manage to put a bolt in the centre of the horn, to hold both together, when there is no captive nut and the parts are riveted together?Should I put a captive nut in?Why is the second horn not riveted to the first at the end plug?I look forward to some help Regards Ian Donaldson

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
3 Tamarac Drive
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Ph. 902-860-0256

David,

You can't tell me that your "inspector" can look you straight in the eyes and tell you that he drills off the old, and rivets on new, anchor nuts every time he removes his spinner for annual inspections!!!!!!! It's "guidance" like this that, occasionally, pisses me off with our Canadian MDRA inspection program! The myth of one time use of lock style nuts really needs to be squashed. They can be used over and over again <UNTIL> you can thread the nut on past the locking portion EASILY by hand (PER AC43.13-1A Chapter 5, Section 1 #230 Nuts). Lots of 40 to 50 year old aircraft out there with anchor nuts on them, that have been disengaged and re-engaged yearly (or 100 hourly), and they still have the original anchor nuts in place. Usually on steel anchor nuts, the bolt needs to be thrown out long before the nut gives in!

The one lug anchors I have been using/selling are similar to an NA17 fiber one, being all solid steel, except they have an inserted and "staked"steel lock ring at the end of the threads(threads are as long as an AN365 nut) instead of Nytrol like the NA17's. Their designation is 79-HA-17-02. Probably not even available anymore as the last inventory tag on the box is 1963! They are not the "cheap" stamped style of the F5000 or MK2000's that are sold these days (that MAM supplies for anchors in the kit). Seeing that the ones I have are Stainless Steel and very high quality locking anchors, I probably should be selling them at least $4 or $5 each like the elastic ones go for. However I have been asking a messily $1 each for them plus shipping and handling. No reason you couldn't also use the NA17-02 Fiber ones if you have a cheap source. (FWIW anyone that has browsed Our Inventory will see them listed at $0.35 each. This is a typo from my Son being half asleep at 3 or 4 A.M. and we can't currently get "in" to fix it (or change anything), ever since our provider changed their servers.)

Mounting them: yes only one drilled hole is used out of the 2 available and it gets "up" drilled to #30 for a rivet. I have done the ones I have installed, on the same vertical line as the hinge bolts and the rib rivets. The outer hole gives good hole spacing and in a couple spots I found I had to use the hole closer to the nut. In either case, the rivet should be installed from the inside as the shop head is smaller and will then clear the hinge bracket or bracket shim if needed. If you are worried about that dotted "cut line" effect of too many holes don't be, and if you still are there is no reason you can't rotate the anchor nut 90 degrees and rivet it off the vertical line.

Best Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: David Ricker (ricker@dbis.ns.ca)
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 10:19 AM
Subject: Flap Hinge Nut Plates, Was Re: Wing assembly


Wayne
What is the spec. on the nutplates for the hinge bolts, is there a MS or other number (A/C Spruce ref: NA17, K2000, MK2000)? What is the standard practise for re-use of these nutplates (that is, more than one insertion of the bolt, per AC43...etc.)? My local inspector tells me it is: use it once and replace, so the nut supplied by MAM would seem to make more sense.
I think you said you use a one lug rivet-in-place nutplate, is the rivet simply placed in line with the centres of the two bolt holes (on their vertical centreline)?
Thanks
Dave R.

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Ian, you are only placing the extra control horn <JUST> to drill the extra hole. This horn is then marked for the side it was drilled for and is used on the outboard end of the cabin's torque tube. The extra hole you drill is to allow 2 bolts to hold the wing and cabin horns together after you install the wings. You <DO NOT> need a captive nut inside the torque tube on the wing. You <WILL> install one in the cabin outboard tube plug though and install a stud (bolt with head cut off) into it to locate the cabin tube into the open hole on the wing tube. BTW, did you get those one lug anchor nuts I sent you installed okay, on your rear spar, to hold your flaperon hinge brackets on?? Regards,Wayne G. O'Sheawww.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: allsure (allsure@iprimus.com.au)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 9:42 AM
Subject: Wing assembly
G'day I'm confused! I am assembling the wing and I have the split flap option. The manual gives details of the full span flaperons but makes no mention of assembling the flaps. I have used the template provided to set the ailerons, but I do not understand just how the control horns(CC43) are asembled.The manual says to assemble a CC43 onto the end plug and drill 8 #11holes, and then temporarily bolt another horn onto the first one and drill a further #11 hole near the end. As I then understand you rivet the first horn on, and then bolt the second one to it.Questions:If the root control horn is riveted to the end plug first, does the second horn just get bolted on over the rivet heads?How do you manage to put a bolt in the centre of the horn, to hold both together, when there is no captive nut and the parts are riveted together?Should I put a captive nut in?Why is the second horn not riveted to the first at the end plug?I look forward to some help Regards Ian Donaldson

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
3 Tamarac Drive
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Ph. 902-860-0256

Wayne
Thanks for your thoughts on the nut plates.
I was inclined to treat them as reusable within reason but without a copy of AC43 (SOON, I Promise!) or other airecraft experience I had my doubts about how they would be received on inspection. Of course the BS detector did go off when he told me they should only be used once.....
Thanks again
Dave R.

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

David, You can't tell me that your "inspector" can look you straight in the eyes and tell you that he drills off the old, and rivets on new, anchor nuts every time he removes his spinner for annual inspections!!!!!!! It's "guidance" like this that, occasionally, pisses me off with our Canadian MDRA inspection program! The myth of one time use of lock style nuts really needs to be squashed. They can be used over and over again <UNTIL> you can thread the nut on past the locking portion EASILY by hand (PER AC43.13-1A Chapter 5, Section 1 #230 Nuts). Lots of 40 to 50 year old aircraft out there with anchor nuts on them, that have been disengaged and re-engaged yearly (or 100 hourly), and they still have the original anchor nuts in place. Usually on steel anchor nuts, the bolt needs to be thrown out long before the nut gives in! The one lug anchors I have been using/selling are similar to an NA17 fiber one, being all solid steel, except they have an inserted and "staked"steel lock ring at the end of the threads(threads are as long as an AN365 nut) instead of Nytrol like the NA17's. Their designation is 79-HA-17-02. Probably not even available anymore as the last inventory tag on the box is 1963! They are not the "cheap" stamped style of the F5000 or MK2000's that are sold these days (that MAM supplies for anchors in the kit). Seeing that the ones I have are Stainless Steel and very high quality locking anchors, I probably should be selling them at least $4 or $5 each like the elastic ones go for. However I have been asking a messily $1 each for them plus shipping and handling. No reason you couldn't also use the NA17-02 Fiber ones if you have a cheap source. (FWIW anyone that has browsed Our Inventory will see them listed at $0.35 each. This is a typo from my Son being half asleep at 3 or 4 A.M. and we can't currently get "in" to fix it (or change anything), ever since our provider changed their servers.) Mounting them: yes only one drilled hole is used out of the 2 available and it gets "up" drilled to #30 for a rivet. I have done the ones I have installed, on the same vertical line as the hinge bolts and the rib rivets. The outer hole gives good hole spacing and in a couple spots I found I had to use the hole closer to the nut. In either case, the rivet should be installed from the inside as the shop head is smaller and will then clear the hinge bracket or bracket shim if needed. If you are worried about that dotted "cut line" effect of too many holes don't be, and if you still are there is no reason you can't rotate the anchor nut 90 degrees and rivet it off the vertical line. Best Regards,Wayne G. O'Sheawww.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: David Ricker (ricker@dbis.ns.ca)
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 10:19 AM
Subject: Flap Hinge Nut Plates, Was Re: Wing assembly
Wayne
What is the spec. on the nutplates for the hinge bolts, is there a MS or other number (A/C Spruce ref: NA17, K2000, MK2000)? What is the standard practise for re-use of these nutplates (that is, more than one insertion of the bolt, per AC43...etc.)? My local inspector tells me it is: use it once and replace, so the nut supplied by MAM would seem to make more sense.
I think you said you use a one lug rivet-in-place nutplate, is the rivet simply placed in line with the centres of the two bolt holes (on their vertical centreline)?
Thanks
Dave R.

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Ian, you are only placing the extra control horn <JUST> to drill the extra hole. This horn is then marked for the side it was drilled for and is used on the outboard end of the cabin's torque tube. The extra hole you drill is to allow 2 bolts to hold the wing and cabin horns together after you install the wings. You <DO NOT> need a captive nut inside the torque tube on the wing. You <WILL> install one in the cabin outboard tube plug though and install a stud (bolt with head cut off) into it to locate the cabin tube into the open hole on the wing tube. BTW, did you get those one lug anchor nuts I sent you installed okay, on your rear spar, to hold your flaperon hinge brackets on?? Regards,Wayne G. O'Sheawww.irishfield.on.ca

--

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada