The Murphy Builders Site

Sorry to burst your bubble but I think I'd rather do the channels agin than
fab the front part of the baffling. Could be just me...probably is..lol CW
----- Original Message -----
From: <mikeh@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 4:12 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] RE: W&B

On 6/27/2010 2:51 PM, rshannon@cruzcom.com wrote to rebel-builders:
Hi Ron,
Thanks so much for sharing all that with us. Having built another
little plane previously I know how you feel about taking your foot off the
gas. Keep the pedal to the metal and I'll keep watching.......good luck.
I'm working on the forward fus of 818R in OZ, it will have a Lyc 0-320
and I'm being very careful of weight, your info is very helpful. I've been
hoping someone out there might be able to assure me that drilling the
floor
channels is the worst part of the process!
All the best and cheers Mike


-> By popular (Ontario?) request... the 254R weight & balance story
follows.
->
-> Before weighing, neighbor Mike (A&P, ace auto/airplane painter &
restorer)
-> guessed 846 lbs. Silly guy. Neighbor John (ex-UA pilot, Harmon Rocket
-> builder) guessed 914 lb. Boo! I worked up from 812 lbs., a number
someone
-> had with a bungee gear, Rotax powered Rebel (Jim C.?) and worked my way
up
-> with additions, etc., and came up with 877, my official guess. I also
said
-> if it was 900 lbs. or under I'd be happy. So... the envelope please:
->
-> Empty weight = 901 lbs.
->
-> Empty CG = 10.85" aft leading edge - with main wheels @ -0.5" arm
(spring
-> gear with 8.00x6.00 tires)
->
-> So John won, and because it's a whole pound over where I said I'd be
-> happy... I'm totally devasted!! Just kidding. Actually, over and over I
made
-> choices to do mods, add equipment or beef things up, and don't regret
any of
-> them.
->
-> For apples to oranges comparisons, following are *some* of the things
that
-> may be of interest, and might (mostly) add weight compared to a fairly
light
-> Rotax-powered Rebel, and some (mostly) very rough estimates of the
*exchange
-> weights*. Most numbers below are just guesses, both as to weight and
-> comparison, of course, so there's no point in arguing the specifics, at
-> least not with me! :-) Weight savings (negative numbers) are in
parentheses,
-> and items were either comparison weighed or otherwise known to be
pretty
-> accurate:
->
-> Jabiru 3300 with muffler, starter, air/carb heat box, NACA vent - 30
lbs.
-> Spring gear -- estimates vary from 11-20 lbs. exchange weight
-> FUS30 - doubler, epoxy, etc. - 2 lbs.
-> FUS 29 - beefed up
-> Iron Design 8" pneumatic tailwheel and modified Champ leaf spring - 5
lbs.*
-> Overhead seat belt attach - 1.5 lbs.
-> Electric flaperon actuator, controller, wiring and switching - (1 lb.)*
-> Strobe system (single power pack and cables) - 9 lbs.*
-> B&C 20S second alternator, regulator, filter & wiring - 10 lbs.*
-> Heated pitot - 1 lb.
-> Thicker windows and lower door half window - 3.2 lbs.*
-> AeroCarb instead of Bing - (2 lbs.)
-> 8.00 x 6.00 wheels and Carlisle Turf Glide tires -- ?
-> SL40 COM2, antenna and coax - 4 lbs.
-> Elaborate glass panel, dual EFIS/AHRS/magnetometers/OAT's, Mode S
XPNDR, XM
-> WX, etc. -- (most of which is pretty light, maybe a savings)
-> PC680 battery - 3 lbs.
-> Four rudder cable pulleys & mounts - 1.5 lbs.
-> Three bay tanks - ea. with > 23 gal. usable BTW
-> Carpeted baggage wall/bulkhead w/XC ski port <g>
-> Various other fuse & wing reinforcements by orig. builder - 5-6 lbs.
-> Adel clamps under the cowl - huge
-> Miles of wire, 3-bus electrical design, lotsa switches - humongous
-> Electrical sleeving and heat shrink throughout - 200 lbs. ;-)
->
-> In addition, several items not yet bolted down were taped in place,
-> including door latch handle/locks, fire extinguisher, interior lights,
A/P
-> servos, etc. Of course, the above doesn't necessarily equal the
difference
-> between 812 and 901 lbs. Things not included are paint (tips & cowl are
-> painted, all mating surfaces and several others are primed, etc.),
strut
-> fairings, skylights (eyebrows are in) and side windows. I may not paint
the
-> fuse except for some color trim over polish & Ever Brite (0.1 lbs. per
100
-> sq. ft.) ala' Luscombe's -- no decision on that yet.
->
-> Personally, I'm happy with the 901 lbs., which will still leave room
for
-> most of what I want to do, even within the LSA-mandated GW of 1320 lbs.
-> Furthermore, when you see all the camping gear come out of the back at
-> Oshkosh next year, just remember it may not look like it, but any and
all
-> hard equipment you see will be made of hollowed out thin wall titanium!
-> ;-) More importantly, I'm proud of the plane, as any builder should
be, and
-> it will be a gas to fly.
->
-> Ron
-> 254R
->
-> PS - I may not have time to respond to comments or questions, if any,
-> because I'm on the last kick to the (flyable) finish line here, and
this
-> ain't no time to take the foot off the gas. [Ed.: mixed metaphors,
again!]
->
-> PS2 - Incidentally, the Sensenich 68x38 composite covered wood prop (11
-> lbs.) produced a static RPM = 2820, which is right at the sweet spot
for the
-> Jabiru 3300. Yay! Performance at cruise remains to be seen, of course.
->




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Thanks to Mike, Ken, and others who have (mostly) expressed appreciation
here and off list for sticking my neck out. I don't recall any other sport
pilot giving real numbers here yet, and thought it was important, especially
when asked. There should be no doubt I had no intention to gloat or brag
about the equipment, just to provide meaningful little numbers that went
into the big one. (I forgot the very comfortable, relatively safe, but
probably heavy seats from Oregon Aero. I got them because there's probably
no better way to protect my spine when it counts, so I haven't even bothered
to weigh them for 3-1/2 years.)

The bottom line is most anyone can build a plane lighter than mine if you
want, and if so, I sincerely hope my data will help you do it. Any single
choice, of which there are hundreds affecting weight during this build
process -- even a choice between relatively similar weight engines -- isn't
going to make or break anyone's enjoyment of their 1/3-1/2 ton Rebel, based
on the weight differences of that item alone, regardless of what ticket they
are privileged to carry. I have built a nice airplane, and zero regrets
choosing to make it what it is.

It will be no surprise to anybody that normally I would have oodles more to
say on this topic, its implications, my plans, sport pilots and the rest of
the pilot world, what's unrealistic or not and for whom, the empty weights
coming in on the separate thread, etc., etc. As an early beneficiary of and
committed evangelist for the sport pilot program, usually I would take it
all on with gusto, but for a lot of reasons, not this time.

Later,

Ron
254R



On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 5:12 AM, <mikeh@dcsol.com> wrote:

On 6/27/2010 2:51 PM, rshannon@cruzcom.com wrote to rebel-builders:
Hi Ron,
Thanks so much for sharing all that with us. Having built another
little plane previously I know how you feel about taking your foot off the
gas. Keep the pedal to the metal and I'll keep watching.......good luck.
I'm working on the forward fus of 818R in OZ, it will have a Lyc 0-320
and I'm being very careful of weight, your info is very helpful. I've been
hoping someone out there might be able to assure me that drilling the floor
channels is the worst part of the process!
All the best and cheers Mike

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username "rebel" password "builder"
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On 6/28/2010 12:33 PM, snowyrvr@mtaonline.net wrote to rebel-builders:

Thanks for that! Now I have something to look forward to. Cheers Mike

-> Sorry to burst your bubble but I think I'd rather do the channels agin than
-> fab the front part of the baffling. Could be just me...probably is..lol CW
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: <mikeh@dcsol.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 4:12 AM
-> Subject: [rebel-builders] RE: W&B
->
->
-> > On 6/27/2010 2:51 PM, rshannon@cruzcom.com wrote to rebel-builders:
-> > Hi Ron,
-> > Thanks so much for sharing all that with us. Having built another
-> > little plane previously I know how you feel about taking your foot off the
-> > gas. Keep the pedal to the metal and I'll keep watching.......good luck.
-> > I'm working on the forward fus of 818R in OZ, it will have a Lyc 0-320
-> > and I'm being very careful of weight, your info is very helpful. I've been
-> > hoping someone out there might be able to assure me that drilling the
-> > floor
-> > channels is the worst part of the process!
-> > All the best and cheers Mike
-> >
-> >
-> > -> By popular (Ontario?) request... the 254R weight & balance story
-> > follows.
-> > ->
-> > -> Before weighing, neighbor Mike (A&P, ace auto/airplane painter &
-> > restorer)
-> > -> guessed 846 lbs. Silly guy. Neighbor John (ex-UA pilot, Harmon Rocket
-> > -> builder) guessed 914 lb. Boo! I worked up from 812 lbs., a number
-> > someone
-> > -> had with a bungee gear, Rotax powered Rebel (Jim C.?) and worked my
way
-> > up
-> > -> with additions, etc., and came up with 877, my official guess. I also
-> > said
-> > -> if it was 900 lbs. or under I'd be happy. So... the envelope please:
-> > ->
-> > -> Empty weight = 901 lbs.
-> > ->
-> > -> Empty CG = 10.85" aft leading edge - with main wheels @ -0.5" arm
-> > (spring
-> > -> gear with 8.00x6.00 tires)
-> > ->
-> > -> So John won, and because it's a whole pound over where I said I'd be
-> > -> happy... I'm totally devasted!! Just kidding. Actually, over and
over I
-> > made
-> > -> choices to do mods, add equipment or beef things up, and don't regret
-> > any of
-> > -> them.
-> > ->
-> > -> For apples to oranges comparisons, following are *some* of the things
-> > that
-> > -> may be of interest, and might (mostly) add weight compared to a fairly
-> > light
-> > -> Rotax-powered Rebel, and some (mostly) very rough estimates of the
-> > *exchange
-> > -> weights*. Most numbers below are just guesses, both as to weight and
-> > -> comparison, of course, so there's no point in arguing the specifics, at
-> > -> least not with me! :-) Weight savings (negative numbers) are in
-> > parentheses,
-> > -> and items were either comparison weighed or otherwise known to be
-> > pretty
-> > -> accurate:
-> > ->
-> > -> Jabiru 3300 with muffler, starter, air/carb heat box, NACA vent - 30
-> > lbs.
-> > -> Spring gear -- estimates vary from 11-20 lbs. exchange weight
-> > -> FUS30 - doubler, epoxy, etc. - 2 lbs.
-> > -> FUS 29 - beefed up
-> > -> Iron Design 8" pneumatic tailwheel and modified Champ leaf spring - 5
-> > lbs.*
-> > -> Overhead seat belt attach - 1.5 lbs.
-> > -> Electric flaperon actuator, controller, wiring and switching - (1 lb.)*
-> > -> Strobe system (single power pack and cables) - 9 lbs.*
-> > -> B&C 20S second alternator, regulator, filter & wiring - 10 lbs.*
-> > -> Heated pitot - 1 lb.
-> > -> Thicker windows and lower door half window - 3.2 lbs.*
-> > -> AeroCarb instead of Bing - (2 lbs.)
-> > -> 8.00 x 6.00 wheels and Carlisle Turf Glide tires -- ?
-> > -> SL40 COM2, antenna and coax - 4 lbs.
-> > -> Elaborate glass panel, dual EFIS/AHRS/magnetometers/OAT's, Mode S
-> > XPNDR, XM
-> > -> WX, etc. -- (most of which is pretty light, maybe a savings)
-> > -> PC680 battery - 3 lbs.
-> > -> Four rudder cable pulleys & mounts - 1.5 lbs.
-> > -> Three bay tanks - ea. with > 23 gal. usable BTW
-> > -> Carpeted baggage wall/bulkhead w/XC ski port <g>
-> > -> Various other fuse & wing reinforcements by orig. builder - 5-6 lbs.
-> > -> Adel clamps under the cowl - huge
-> > -> Miles of wire, 3-bus electrical design, lotsa switches - humongous
-> > -> Electrical sleeving and heat shrink throughout - 200 lbs. ;-)
-> > ->
-> > -> In addition, several items not yet bolted down were taped in place,
-> > -> including door latch handle/locks, fire extinguisher, interior lights,
-> > A/P
-> > -> servos, etc. Of course, the above doesn't necessarily equal the
-> > difference
-> > -> between 812 and 901 lbs. Things not included are paint (tips & cowl are
-> > -> painted, all mating surfaces and several others are primed, etc.),
-> > strut
-> > -> fairings, skylights (eyebrows are in) and side windows. I may not
paint
-> > the
-> > -> fuse except for some color trim over polish & Ever Brite (0.1 lbs. per
-> > 100
-> > -> sq. ft.) ala' Luscombe's -- no decision on that yet.
-> > ->
-> > -> Personally, I'm happy with the 901 lbs., which will still leave room
-> > for
-> > -> most of what I want to do, even within the LSA-mandated GW of 1320 lbs.
-> > -> Furthermore, when you see all the camping gear come out of the back at
-> > -> Oshkosh next year, just remember it may not look like it, but any and
-> > all
-> > -> hard equipment you see will be made of hollowed out thin wall titanium!
-> > -> ;-) More importantly, I'm proud of the plane, as any builder should
-> > be, and
-> > -> it will be a gas to fly.
-> > ->
-> > -> Ron
-> > -> 254R
-> > ->
-> > -> PS - I may not have time to respond to comments or questions, if any,
-> > -> because I'm on the last kick to the (flyable) finish line here, and
-> > this
-> > -> ain't no time to take the foot off the gas. [Ed.: mixed metaphors,
-> > again!]
-> > ->
-> > -> PS2 - Incidentally, the Sensenich 68x38 composite covered wood prop (11
-> > -> lbs.) produced a static RPM = 2820, which is right at the sweet spot
-> > for the
-> > -> Jabiru 3300. Yay! Performance at cruise remains to be seen, of course.
-> > ->
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
->




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Mike
Don't think the my photos John sent you show how to install the ONE PIECE
fuel line in the cabin side walls, but now is the time to do it before you
close it up. Check with John he has photos.
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: <mikeh@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: W&B

On 6/28/2010 12:33 PM, snowyrvr@mtaonline.net wrote to rebel-builders:

Thanks for that! Now I have something to look forward to. Cheers Mike

-> Sorry to burst your bubble but I think I'd rather do the channels agin
than
-> fab the front part of the baffling. Could be just me...probably
is..lol CW
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: <mikeh@dcsol.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 4:12 AM
-> Subject: [rebel-builders] RE: W&B
->
->
-> > On 6/27/2010 2:51 PM, rshannon@cruzcom.com wrote to rebel-builders:
-> > Hi Ron,
-> > Thanks so much for sharing all that with us. Having built another
-> > little plane previously I know how you feel about taking your foot
off the
-> > gas. Keep the pedal to the metal and I'll keep watching.......good
luck.
-> > I'm working on the forward fus of 818R in OZ, it will have a Lyc
0-320
-> > and I'm being very careful of weight, your info is very helpful. I've
been
-> > hoping someone out there might be able to assure me that drilling the
-> > floor
-> > channels is the worst part of the process!
-> > All the best and cheers Mike
-> >
-> >
-> > -> By popular (Ontario?) request... the 254R weight & balance story
-> > follows.
-> > ->
-> > -> Before weighing, neighbor Mike (A&P, ace auto/airplane painter &
-> > restorer)
-> > -> guessed 846 lbs. Silly guy. Neighbor John (ex-UA pilot, Harmon
Rocket
-> > -> builder) guessed 914 lb. Boo! I worked up from 812 lbs., a number
-> > someone
-> > -> had with a bungee gear, Rotax powered Rebel (Jim C.?) and worked
my
way
-> > up
-> > -> with additions, etc., and came up with 877, my official guess. I
also
-> > said
-> > -> if it was 900 lbs. or under I'd be happy. So... the envelope
please:
-> > ->
-> > -> Empty weight = 901 lbs.
-> > ->
-> > -> Empty CG = 10.85" aft leading edge - with main wheels @ -0.5" arm
-> > (spring
-> > -> gear with 8.00x6.00 tires)
-> > ->
-> > -> So John won, and because it's a whole pound over where I said I'd
be
-> > -> happy... I'm totally devasted!! Just kidding. Actually, over and
over I
-> > made
-> > -> choices to do mods, add equipment or beef things up, and don't
regret
-> > any of
-> > -> them.
-> > ->
-> > -> For apples to oranges comparisons, following are *some* of the
things
-> > that
-> > -> may be of interest, and might (mostly) add weight compared to a
fairly
-> > light
-> > -> Rotax-powered Rebel, and some (mostly) very rough estimates of the
-> > *exchange
-> > -> weights*. Most numbers below are just guesses, both as to weight
and
-> > -> comparison, of course, so there's no point in arguing the
specifics, at
-> > -> least not with me! :-) Weight savings (negative numbers) are in
-> > parentheses,
-> > -> and items were either comparison weighed or otherwise known to
be
-> > pretty
-> > -> accurate:
-> > ->
-> > -> Jabiru 3300 with muffler, starter, air/carb heat box, NACA vent -
30
-> > lbs.
-> > -> Spring gear -- estimates vary from 11-20 lbs. exchange weight
-> > -> FUS30 - doubler, epoxy, etc. - 2 lbs.
-> > -> FUS 29 - beefed up
-> > -> Iron Design 8" pneumatic tailwheel and modified Champ leaf
spring - 5
-> > lbs.*
-> > -> Overhead seat belt attach - 1.5 lbs.
-> > -> Electric flaperon actuator, controller, wiring and switching - (1
lb.)*
-> > -> Strobe system (single power pack and cables) - 9 lbs.*
-> > -> B&C 20S second alternator, regulator, filter & wiring - 10 lbs.*
-> > -> Heated pitot - 1 lb.
-> > -> Thicker windows and lower door half window - 3.2 lbs.*
-> > -> AeroCarb instead of Bing - (2 lbs.)
-> > -> 8.00 x 6.00 wheels and Carlisle Turf Glide tires -- ?
-> > -> SL40 COM2, antenna and coax - 4 lbs.
-> > -> Elaborate glass panel, dual EFIS/AHRS/magnetometers/OAT's, Mode S
-> > XPNDR, XM
-> > -> WX, etc. -- (most of which is pretty light, maybe a savings)
-> > -> PC680 battery - 3 lbs.
-> > -> Four rudder cable pulleys & mounts - 1.5 lbs.
-> > -> Three bay tanks - ea. with > 23 gal. usable BTW
-> > -> Carpeted baggage wall/bulkhead w/XC ski port <g>
-> > -> Various other fuse & wing reinforcements by orig. builder - 5-6
lbs.
-> > -> Adel clamps under the cowl - huge
-> > -> Miles of wire, 3-bus electrical design, lotsa switches - humongous
-> > -> Electrical sleeving and heat shrink throughout - 200 lbs. ;-)
-> > ->
-> > -> In addition, several items not yet bolted down were taped in
place,
-> > -> including door latch handle/locks, fire extinguisher, interior
lights,
-> > A/P
-> > -> servos, etc. Of course, the above doesn't necessarily equal the
-> > difference
-> > -> between 812 and 901 lbs. Things not included are paint (tips &
cowl are
-> > -> painted, all mating surfaces and several others are primed, etc.),
-> > strut
-> > -> fairings, skylights (eyebrows are in) and side windows. I may not
paint
-> > the
-> > -> fuse except for some color trim over polish & Ever Brite (0.1 lbs.
per
-> > 100
-> > -> sq. ft.) ala' Luscombe's -- no decision on that yet.
-> > ->
-> > -> Personally, I'm happy with the 901 lbs., which will still leave
room
-> > for
-> > -> most of what I want to do, even within the LSA-mandated GW of 1320
lbs.
-> > -> Furthermore, when you see all the camping gear come out of the
back at
-> > -> Oshkosh next year, just remember it may not look like it, but any
and
-> > all
-> > -> hard equipment you see will be made of hollowed out thin wall
titanium!
-> > -> ;-) More importantly, I'm proud of the plane, as any builder
should
-> > be, and
-> > -> it will be a gas to fly.
-> > ->
-> > -> Ron
-> > -> 254R
-> > ->
-> > -> PS - I may not have time to respond to comments or questions, if
any,
-> > -> because I'm on the last kick to the (flyable) finish line here,
and
-> > this
-> > -> ain't no time to take the foot off the gas. [Ed.: mixed metaphors,
-> > again!]
-> > ->
-> > -> PS2 - Incidentally, the Sensenich 68x38 composite covered wood
prop (11
-> > -> lbs.) produced a static RPM = 2820, which is right at the sweet
spot
-> > for the
-> > -> Jabiru 3300. Yay! Performance at cruise remains to be seen, of
course.
-> > ->
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
->




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Well said Ron. By the way, I saw nothing wrong with anything you you stated in your post. I have been patiently waiting to hear your progress up to completion. Can hardly wait for a flight report. Keep the reports coming!!
Keith R661

--- On Mon, 6/28/10, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:


From: Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: W&B
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 8:08 PM


Thanks to Mike, Ken, and others who have (mostly) expressed appreciation
here and off list for sticking my neck out. I don't recall any other sport
pilot giving real numbers here yet, and thought it was important, especially
when asked. There should be no doubt I had no intention to gloat or brag
about the equipment, just to provide meaningful little numbers that went
into the big one. (I forgot the very comfortable, relatively safe, but
probably heavy seats from Oregon Aero. I got them because there's probably
no better way to protect my spine when it counts, so I haven't even bothered
to weigh them for 3-1/2 years.)

The bottom line is most anyone can build a plane lighter than mine if you
want, and if so, I sincerely hope my data will help you do it. Any single
choice, of which there are hundreds affecting weight during this build
process -- even a choice between relatively similar weight engines -- isn't
going to make or break anyone's enjoyment of their 1/3-1/2 ton Rebel, based
on the weight differences of that item alone, regardless of what ticket they
are privileged to carry. I have built a nice airplane, and zero regrets
choosing to make it what it is.

It will be no surprise to anybody that normally I would have oodles more to
say on this topic, its implications, my plans, sport pilots and the rest of
the pilot world, what's unrealistic or not and for whom, the empty weights
coming in on the separate thread, etc., etc. As an early beneficiary of and
committed evangelist for the sport pilot program, usually I would take it
all on with gusto, but for a lot of reasons, not this time.

Later,

Ron
254R



On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 5:12 AM, <mikeh@dcsol.com> wrote:

[quote]On 6/27/2010 2:51 PM, rshannon@cruzcom.com wrote to rebel-builders:
Hi Ron,

On 6/29/2010 3:47 AM, charlie@troyairpark.com wrote to rebel-builders:

Hi Charlie, good to hear from you. Yes yes, I'll add the one piece fuel
line to all the thoughts I'm juggling! Thank you. John actually sent a
couple of shots of it recently, and I will have to address it soon. At the
moment I'm still upside down...........does that make me right side up in
OZ? And have just started the doublers for the spring gear.
I'm still checking your photos from time to time. How are you getting
on, have you got the doors done yet?
I've been doing some research on instruments, have you had any more
thoughts?
All the best Cheers Mike



-> Mike
-> Don't think the my photos John sent you show how to install the ONE PIECE
-> fuel line in the cabin side walls, but now is the time to do it before you
-> close it up. Check with John he has photos.
-> Charlie E. 802R
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: <mikeh@dcsol.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 5:37 AM
-> Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: W&B
->
->
-> > On 6/28/2010 12:33 PM, snowyrvr@mtaonline.net wrote to rebel-builders:
-> >
-> > Thanks for that! Now I have something to look forward to. Cheers Mike
-> >
-> > -> Sorry to burst your bubble but I think I'd rather do the channels agin
-> > than
-> > -> fab the front part of the baffling. Could be just me...probably
-> > is..lol CW
-> > -> ----- Original Message -----
-> > -> From: <mikeh@dcsol.com>
-> > -> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> > -> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 4:12 AM
-> > -> Subject: [rebel-builders] RE: W&B
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> > On 6/27/2010 2:51 PM, rshannon@cruzcom.com wrote to rebel-builders:
-> > -> > Hi Ron,
-> > -> > Thanks so much for sharing all that with us. Having built another
-> > -> > little plane previously I know how you feel about taking your foot
-> > off the
-> > -> > gas. Keep the pedal to the metal and I'll keep watching.......good
-> > luck.
-> > -> > I'm working on the forward fus of 818R in OZ, it will have a Lyc
-> > 0-320
-> > -> > and I'm being very careful of weight, your info is very helpful.
I've
-> > been
-> > -> > hoping someone out there might be able to assure me that drilling the
-> > -> > floor
-> > -> > channels is the worst part of the process!
-> > -> > All the best and cheers Mike
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> > -> By popular (Ontario?) request... the 254R weight & balance story
-> > -> > follows.
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> > -> Before weighing, neighbor Mike (A&P, ace auto/airplane painter &
-> > -> > restorer)
-> > -> > -> guessed 846 lbs. Silly guy. Neighbor John (ex-UA pilot, Harmon
-> > Rocket
-> > -> > -> builder) guessed 914 lb. Boo! I worked up from 812 lbs., a number
-> > -> > someone
-> > -> > -> had with a bungee gear, Rotax powered Rebel (Jim C.?) and worked
-> > my
-> > way
-> > -> > up
-> > -> > -> with additions, etc., and came up with 877, my official guess. I
-> > also
-> > -> > said
-> > -> > -> if it was 900 lbs. or under I'd be happy. So... the envelope
-> > please:
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> > -> Empty weight = 901 lbs.
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> > -> Empty CG = 10.85" aft leading edge - with main wheels @ -0.5" arm
-> > -> > (spring
-> > -> > -> gear with 8.00x6.00 tires)
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> > -> So John won, and because it's a whole pound over where I said I'd
-> > be
-> > -> > -> happy... I'm totally devasted!! Just kidding. Actually, over and
-> > over I
-> > -> > made
-> > -> > -> choices to do mods, add equipment or beef things up, and don't
-> > regret
-> > -> > any of
-> > -> > -> them.
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> > -> For apples to oranges comparisons, following are *some* of the
-> > things
-> > -> > that
-> > -> > -> may be of interest, and might (mostly) add weight compared to a
-> > fairly
-> > -> > light
-> > -> > -> Rotax-powered Rebel, and some (mostly) very rough estimates of the
-> > -> > *exchange
-> > -> > -> weights*. Most numbers below are just guesses, both as to weight
-> > and
-> > -> > -> comparison, of course, so there's no point in arguing the
-> > specifics, at
-> > -> > -> least not with me! :-) Weight savings (negative numbers) are in
-> > -> > parentheses,
-> > -> > -> and items were either comparison weighed or otherwise
known to
-> > be
-> > -> > pretty
-> > -> > -> accurate:
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> > -> Jabiru 3300 with muffler, starter, air/carb heat box, NACA vent -
-> > 30
-> > -> > lbs.
-> > -> > -> Spring gear -- estimates vary from 11-20 lbs. exchange weight
-> > -> > -> FUS30 - doubler, epoxy, etc. - 2 lbs.
-> > -> > -> FUS 29 - beefed up
-> > -> > -> Iron Design 8" pneumatic tailwheel and modified Champ leaf
-> > spring - 5
-> > -> > lbs.*
-> > -> > -> Overhead seat belt attach - 1.5 lbs.
-> > -> > -> Electric flaperon actuator, controller, wiring and switching - (1
-> > lb.)*
-> > -> > -> Strobe system (single power pack and cables) - 9 lbs.*
-> > -> > -> B&C 20S second alternator, regulator, filter & wiring - 10 lbs.*
-> > -> > -> Heated pitot - 1 lb.
-> > -> > -> Thicker windows and lower door half window - 3.2 lbs.*
-> > -> > -> AeroCarb instead of Bing - (2 lbs.)
-> > -> > -> 8.00 x 6.00 wheels and Carlisle Turf Glide tires -- ?
-> > -> > -> SL40 COM2, antenna and coax - 4 lbs.
-> > -> > -> Elaborate glass panel, dual EFIS/AHRS/magnetometers/OAT's, Mode S
-> > -> > XPNDR, XM
-> > -> > -> WX, etc. -- (most of which is pretty light, maybe a savings)
-> > -> > -> PC680 battery - 3 lbs.
-> > -> > -> Four rudder cable pulleys & mounts - 1.5 lbs.
-> > -> > -> Three bay tanks - ea. with > 23 gal. usable BTW
-> > -> > -> Carpeted baggage wall/bulkhead w/XC ski port <g>
-> > -> > -> Various other fuse & wing reinforcements by orig. builder - 5-6
-> > lbs.
-> > -> > -> Adel clamps under the cowl - huge
-> > -> > -> Miles of wire, 3-bus electrical design, lotsa switches - humongous
-> > -> > -> Electrical sleeving and heat shrink throughout - 200 lbs. ;-)
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> > -> In addition, several items not yet bolted down were taped in
-> > place,
-> > -> > -> including door latch handle/locks, fire extinguisher, interior
-> > lights,
-> > -> > A/P
-> > -> > -> servos, etc. Of course, the above doesn't necessarily equal the
-> > -> > difference
-> > -> > -> between 812 and 901 lbs. Things not included are paint (tips &
-> > cowl are
-> > -> > -> painted, all mating surfaces and several others are primed, etc.),
-> > -> > strut
-> > -> > -> fairings, skylights (eyebrows are in) and side windows. I may not
-> > paint
-> > -> > the
-> > -> > -> fuse except for some color trim over polish & Ever Brite (0.1
lbs.
-> > per
-> > -> > 100
-> > -> > -> sq. ft.) ala' Luscombe's -- no decision on that yet.
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> > -> Personally, I'm happy with the 901 lbs., which will still leave
-> > room
-> > -> > for
-> > -> > -> most of what I want to do, even within the LSA-mandated GW of
1320
-> > lbs.
-> > -> > -> Furthermore, when you see all the camping gear come out of the
-> > back at
-> > -> > -> Oshkosh next year, just remember it may not look like it, but any
-> > and
-> > -> > all
-> > -> > -> hard equipment you see will be made of hollowed out thin wall
-> > titanium!
-> > -> > -> ;-) More importantly, I'm proud of the plane, as any builder
-> > should
-> > -> > be, and
-> > -> > -> it will be a gas to fly.
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> > -> Ron
-> > -> > -> 254R
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> > -> PS - I may not have time to respond to comments or questions, if
-> > any,
-> > -> > -> because I'm on the last kick to the (flyable) finish line here,
-> > and
-> > -> > this
-> > -> > -> ain't no time to take the foot off the gas. [Ed.: mixed metaphors,
-> > -> > again!]
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> > -> PS2 - Incidentally, the Sensenich 68x38 composite covered wood
-> > prop (11
-> > -> > -> lbs.) produced a static RPM = 2820, which is right at the sweet
-> > spot
-> > -> > for the
-> > -> > -> Jabiru 3300. Yay! Performance at cruise remains to be seen, of
-> > course.
-> > -> > ->
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > ->
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
->




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