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more push pull rod 2

https://www.murphybuilders.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1098

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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by Geert Frank
Hi once again, I got me an inspection mirror and had me a good look around
at what was going on at that first bellcrank. First of all on my airplane
anyway, I have the SHORT leg of the bellcrank pointing forward (therefore
the LONG leg is pointing left) and to avoid any confusion, it is the bolt
through the forward pointing leg that you need to remove to accommodate the
spacers or washers and again this bolt will probably have to be replaced by
a longer one. Both the nut on this bolt and even the nut on the bolt through
the whole bellcrank assembly are, in my case and per the then existing
manual(1994), are ELASTIC STOPNUTS. If this has changed in the newer and/or
more recent instructions I would like to hear about it. My visitor and
fellow builder apparently is using a drilled bolt and castellated nut with
cotter key. This would be more in line with what little I know should be
used, but again I simply followed instructions in my manual at that time. To
be fair, the two above mentioned elastic stopnuts were still tight on my
set-up. Geert.

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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by Louis & Kathy Young
On a certified 172 I rent here in Laurel Miss, the exposed control links
and such have a dab of yellow paint (ink??) to show if a threaded fastener
begins to work loose.....That would work well on a reb, I would suppose,
when you have such a large amount of exposed control links and such wouldn't
it ?

...I always notice when a bright shiny dab shows up, as the a/c has then
been in the shop...I can start asking questions then.....Just a students
perspective..

Thanks for all of "y'alls" detail in this forum, very educational.... !

Louis Young
www.justplanevideos.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea [mailto:oifa@irishfield.on.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 4:28 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: more push pull rod 2



Geert, your bellcrank is in correctly!

Geert and ALL, All bolts and nuts holding rod ends <CAN> be retained by
elastic AN365 nuts (per AC43.13) as the rod end is designed to rotate. We
have had some Canadian inspectors snag this though and make unknowing
builders change all their hardware to drilled bolts and castle nuts, when
all they had to do was fill in the snag sheet that elastic nuts were
acceptable practice per AC43.13 and sign it off.(this also applies to
bearing'd pulleys) Using drilled bolts and castle nuts does give a little
more "piece of mind" to some though (and if the FAA man says he will give
you a flight permit if you change them to drilled and castle nuts, don't
piss him off unless it will take you a month to get the bolts). The MOST
IMPORTANT thing with rod ends is to make sure you retain the rod
end with a
penny washer, so if the rod ends bearing fell out, the housing can't fall
off the bolt (I've have seen a few flying Rebels without Penny washers on
the wing to flaperon push pull tube rod ends (and I assume they
did the same
everywhere else on the bird, SCARY!!). Using a 970-3, drilled out
to a 1/4"
is the cleanest way to do this, as the washer is the same O.D. as the rod
end, where as using a 970-4 leaves too much washer diameter hanging out to
snag/rub on things.

I haven't seen an elastic nut come loose, anywhere, in ANY Rebel
I've worked
on yet! If one ever did, I would hope that you inspect your aircraft often
enough to find it in comparison to the amount of time it would take one to
work it's way off the threads if it did come loose. I DO ALWAYS find at
least one rod ends lock nut that is loose on every Rebel I work on though!
This is not a big deal as the rod end can't thread in or out on
them enough
to change their set length or fall apart. BUT if both nuts on one
push pull
tube come loose the tube is free to turn and although the tube CAN'T
lengthen or shorten because both rod ends have right hand threads, it is
possible that one rod end could thread out of the tube, before
the other one
bottoms into the opposite end of the tube. CHECK YOUR LOCK NUTS
OFTEN! Also
when you set up your controls, make sure that you have at least
half the rod
ends thread engaged into both ends of the tube. This guarantees that the
above can't happen as your lock nuts width will be your insurance package!

As for the 1st short push pull tube coming out of the stick: if you lock
both nuts, WITHOUT using the small slices of tube for spacers,
applying full
for and aft stick will unlock one (or both) nut(s) immediately as
the stick
moves through more of a "quadrant" than the retained rod end can
(that's why
MAM's manual has you leave one nut off at the stick end of this tube,
although I don't personally like the idea of steel threading in and out of
the aluminum tube end). If you use the spacers (and yes of course a longer
bolt), the rod ends CAN rotate more than the sticks movement
"quadrant", but
you have to be carefull where you lock the nuts so you get full stick
deflection without jamming a rod end. Once set up properly and
both nuts are
locked in place, they should stay that way.

Regards and build them safe,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Geert Frank" <storchpilot@mediaone.net>
To: "murphy archives" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 4:45 PM
Subject: more push pull rod 2

Hi once again, I got me an inspection mirror and had me a good look
around
at what was going on at that first bellcrank. First of all on
my airplane
anyway, I have the SHORT leg of the bellcrank pointing forward
(therefore
the LONG leg is pointing left) and to avoid any confusion, it
is the bolt
through the forward pointing leg that you need to remove to accommodate
the
spacers or washers and again this bolt will probably have to be replaced
by
a longer one. Both the nut on this bolt and even the nut on the bolt
through
the whole bellcrank assembly are, in my case and per the then existing
manual(1994), are ELASTIC STOPNUTS. If this has changed in the newer
and/or
more recent instructions I would like to hear about it. My visitor and
fellow builder apparently is using a drilled bolt and
castellated nut with
cotter key. This would be more in line with what little I know should be
used, but again I simply followed instructions in my manual at
that time.
To
be fair, the two above mentioned elastic stopnuts were still tight on my
set-up. Geert.

*-----------------------------------------------------------------
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----------
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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by Mike Davis
Is there no way these nuts could be safety wired? On the military aircraft
I worked on, control linkages almost always had a groove cut into them, then
a tabbed washer placed between the lock nut and the "lollipop" on the end.
The tabbed washer had a small edge with a hole in it that protruded, you
would then safety wire both the nut and the lollipop to the tabbed washer.
You couldn't move anything then unless the wire was cut.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "hibbs" <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 8:49 PM
Subject: RE: more push pull rod 2

On the subject of paint or ink to mark rotating nuts, what are you guys
using? I tested a couple of products in my shop last week and none
worked well. Typically, the bolt could be rotated without breaking the
"paint line". Is there a product that works really well?


--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by Wayne G. O'Shea
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 173 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 18:03:13 on 12 Dec 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



Geert, your bellcrank is in correctly!

Geert and ALL, All bolts and nuts holding rod ends <CAN> be retained by
elastic AN365 nuts (per AC43.13) as the rod end is designed to rotate. We
have had some Canadian inspectors snag this though and make unknowing
builders change all their hardware to drilled bolts and castle nuts, when
all they had to do was fill in the snag sheet that elastic nuts were
acceptable practice per AC43.13 and sign it off.(this also applies to
bearing'd pulleys) Using drilled bolts and castle nuts does give a little
more "piece of mind" to some though (and if the FAA man says he will give
you a flight permit if you change them to drilled and castle nuts, don't
piss him off unless it will take you a month to get the bolts). The MOST
IMPORTANT thing with rod ends is to make sure you retain the rod end with a
penny washer, so if the rod ends bearing fell out, the housing can't fall
off the bolt (I've have seen a few flying Rebels without Penny washers on
the wing to flaperon push pull tube rod ends (and I assume they did the same
everywhere else on the bird, SCARY!!). Using a 970-3, drilled out to a 1/4"
is the cleanest way to do this, as the washer is the same O.D. as the rod
end, where as using a 970-4 leaves too much washer diameter hanging out to
snag/rub on things.

I haven't seen an elastic nut come loose, anywhere, in ANY Rebel I've worked
on yet! If one ever did, I would hope that you inspect your aircraft often
enough to find it in comparison to the amount of time it would take one to
work it's way off the threads if it did come loose. I DO ALWAYS find at
least one rod ends lock nut that is loose on every Rebel I work on though!
This is not a big deal as the rod end can't thread in or out on them enough
to change their set length or fall apart. BUT if both nuts on one push pull
tube come loose the tube is free to turn and although the tube CAN'T
lengthen or shorten because both rod ends have right hand threads, it is
possible that one rod end could thread out of the tube, before the other one
bottoms into the opposite end of the tube. CHECK YOUR LOCK NUTS OFTEN! Also
when you set up your controls, make sure that you have at least half the rod
ends thread engaged into both ends of the tube. This guarantees that the
above can't happen as your lock nuts width will be your insurance package!

As for the 1st short push pull tube coming out of the stick: if you lock
both nuts, WITHOUT using the small slices of tube for spacers, applying full
for and aft stick will unlock one (or both) nut(s) immediately as the stick
moves through more of a "quadrant" than the retained rod end can (that's why
MAM's manual has you leave one nut off at the stick end of this tube,
although I don't personally like the idea of steel threading in and out of
the aluminum tube end). If you use the spacers (and yes of course a longer
bolt), the rod ends CAN rotate more than the sticks movement "quadrant", but
you have to be carefull where you lock the nuts so you get full stick
deflection without jamming a rod end. Once set up properly and both nuts are
locked in place, they should stay that way.

Regards and build them safe,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Geert Frank" <storchpilot@mediaone.net>
To: "murphy archives" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 4:45 PM
Subject: more push pull rod 2

Hi once again, I got me an inspection mirror and had me a good look
around
at what was going on at that first bellcrank. First of all on my airplane
anyway, I have the SHORT leg of the bellcrank pointing forward (therefore
the LONG leg is pointing left) and to avoid any confusion, it is the bolt
through the forward pointing leg that you need to remove to accommodate
the
spacers or washers and again this bolt will probably have to be replaced
by
a longer one. Both the nut on this bolt and even the nut on the bolt
through
the whole bellcrank assembly are, in my case and per the then existing
manual(1994), are ELASTIC STOPNUTS. If this has changed in the newer
and/or
more recent instructions I would like to hear about it. My visitor and
fellow builder apparently is using a drilled bolt and castellated nut with
cotter key. This would be more in line with what little I know should be
used, but again I simply followed instructions in my manual at that time.
To
be fair, the two above mentioned elastic stopnuts were still tight on my
set-up. Geert.

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by hibbs
On the subject of paint or ink to mark rotating nuts, what are you guys
using? I tested a couple of products in my shop last week and none
worked well. Typically, the bolt could be rotated without breaking the
"paint line". Is there a product that works really well?


--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by Wayne G. O'Shea
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 173 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 20:11:21 on 12 Dec 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Great idea Louis! Once you get it rigged properly and flying straight, paint
a yellow (or other bright colour) line on the rod threads, the jam nut and
the tube end plug. A quick look around would confirm everything is in it's
place.

Sounds like you fly one of the "better" maintained C172's around!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Louis & Kathy Young" <louis@c-gate.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 7:07 PM
Subject: RE: more push pull rod 2

On a certified 172 I rent here in Laurel Miss, the exposed control links
and such have a dab of yellow paint (ink??) to show if a threaded fastener
begins to work loose.....That would work well on a reb, I would suppose,
when you have such a large amount of exposed control links and such
wouldn't
it ?

...I always notice when a bright shiny dab shows up, as the a/c has then
been in the shop...I can start asking questions then.....Just a students
perspective..

Thanks for all of "y'alls" detail in this forum, very educational.... !

Louis Young
www.justplanevideos.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea [mailto:oifa@irishfield.on.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 4:28 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: more push pull rod 2



Geert, your bellcrank is in correctly!

Geert and ALL, All bolts and nuts holding rod ends <CAN> be retained by
elastic AN365 nuts (per AC43.13) as the rod end is designed to rotate.
We
have had some Canadian inspectors snag this though and make unknowing
builders change all their hardware to drilled bolts and castle nuts,
when
all they had to do was fill in the snag sheet that elastic nuts were
acceptable practice per AC43.13 and sign it off.(this also applies to
bearing'd pulleys) Using drilled bolts and castle nuts does give a
little
more "piece of mind" to some though (and if the FAA man says he will
give
you a flight permit if you change them to drilled and castle nuts, don't
piss him off unless it will take you a month to get the bolts). The MOST
IMPORTANT thing with rod ends is to make sure you retain the rod
end with a
penny washer, so if the rod ends bearing fell out, the housing can't
fall
off the bolt (I've have seen a few flying Rebels without Penny washers
on
the wing to flaperon push pull tube rod ends (and I assume they
did the same
everywhere else on the bird, SCARY!!). Using a 970-3, drilled out
to a 1/4"
is the cleanest way to do this, as the washer is the same O.D. as the
rod
end, where as using a 970-4 leaves too much washer diameter hanging out
to
snag/rub on things.

I haven't seen an elastic nut come loose, anywhere, in ANY Rebel
I've worked
on yet! If one ever did, I would hope that you inspect your aircraft
often
enough to find it in comparison to the amount of time it would take one
to
work it's way off the threads if it did come loose. I DO ALWAYS find at
least one rod ends lock nut that is loose on every Rebel I work on
though!
This is not a big deal as the rod end can't thread in or out on
them enough
to change their set length or fall apart. BUT if both nuts on one
push pull
tube come loose the tube is free to turn and although the tube CAN'T
lengthen or shorten because both rod ends have right hand threads, it is
possible that one rod end could thread out of the tube, before
the other one
bottoms into the opposite end of the tube. CHECK YOUR LOCK NUTS
OFTEN! Also
when you set up your controls, make sure that you have at least
half the rod
ends thread engaged into both ends of the tube. This guarantees that the
above can't happen as your lock nuts width will be your insurance
package!
As for the 1st short push pull tube coming out of the stick: if you lock
both nuts, WITHOUT using the small slices of tube for spacers,
applying full
for and aft stick will unlock one (or both) nut(s) immediately as
the stick
moves through more of a "quadrant" than the retained rod end can
(that's why
MAM's manual has you leave one nut off at the stick end of this tube,
although I don't personally like the idea of steel threading in and out
of
the aluminum tube end). If you use the spacers (and yes of course a
longer
bolt), the rod ends CAN rotate more than the sticks movement
"quadrant", but
you have to be carefull where you lock the nuts so you get full stick
deflection without jamming a rod end. Once set up properly and
both nuts are
locked in place, they should stay that way.

Regards and build them safe,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Geert Frank" <storchpilot@mediaone.net>
To: "murphy archives" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 4:45 PM
Subject: more push pull rod 2

Hi once again, I got me an inspection mirror and had me a good look
around
at what was going on at that first bellcrank. First of all on
my airplane
anyway, I have the SHORT leg of the bellcrank pointing forward
(therefore
the LONG leg is pointing left) and to avoid any confusion, it
is the bolt
through the forward pointing leg that you need to remove to
accommodate
the
spacers or washers and again this bolt will probably have to be
replaced
by
a longer one. Both the nut on this bolt and even the nut on the bolt
through
the whole bellcrank assembly are, in my case and per the then existing
manual(1994), are ELASTIC STOPNUTS. If this has changed in the newer
and/or
more recent instructions I would like to hear about it. My visitor and
fellow builder apparently is using a drilled bolt and
castellated nut with
cotter key. This would be more in line with what little I know should
be
used, but again I simply followed instructions in my manual at
that time.
To
be fair, the two above mentioned elastic stopnuts were still tight on
my
set-up. Geert.

*-----------------------------------------------------------------
----------
--------*
*-----------------------------------------------------------------
----------
--------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------*
Contributors' page at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/contributors.htm
Visit the book store at:
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Archives located at:
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*-----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------*
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Contributors' page at:
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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by Louis & Kathy Young
I am not sure what that stuff is.....I bet it is 50 cents worth of lacquer
based paint that sells for $49.95 since it is for aviation.... I am sure I
have seen it for sale in A/C Spruce....I will look around....


-----Original Message-----
From: hibbs [mailto:hibbs@pacifier.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 11:50 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: RE: more push pull rod 2


On the subject of paint or ink to mark rotating nuts, what are you guys
using? I tested a couple of products in my shop last week and none
worked well. Typically, the bolt could be rotated without breaking the
"paint line". Is there a product that works really well?


--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
*-----------------------------------------------------------------
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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by Wayne G. O'Shea
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 173 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 11:04:30 on 13 Dec 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes Scott, there is a Loctite product specifically designed for this that
the prop overhaulers use,etc. Don't know the product number off hand though.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "hibbs" <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:49 AM
Subject: RE: more push pull rod 2

On the subject of paint or ink to mark rotating nuts, what are you guys
using? I tested a couple of products in my shop last week and none
worked well. Typically, the bolt could be rotated without breaking the
"paint line". Is there a product that works really well?


--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by BILNEWKIRK
WAYNE;
THANKS FOR YOUR HELP. I WILL TRY AND FIX MINE SOOOON.

BILL NEWKIRK, #376

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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by LisaFly99
In a message dated 12/13/00 10:05:05 AM Central Standard Time,
oifa@irishfield.on.ca writes:

a Loctite product specifically designed for this


Try a dab of you're ole lady's fingernail polish.
Phil&Lisa Smith N414D

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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by hibbs
Finger nail polish first, then loctite. Thanks

--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by rebelair
Hi There

I bought the material you are looking from from Avery Tools. It is called
'Inspection Lacquer' or 'Torque Seal'. It dries quickly, will crack if the
nut etc. loosens, & is highly visible (orange). I used it on critical
bolted joints etc. after final torque had been applied. This takes the
guessing out of it all i.e. Did I torque that to final after I took it apart
for the fifth time or what?

It sells for $2.75 a tube 0.5 oz. Bob Avery there is very fine to deal
with. Top marks to him!

Brian #328R




-----Original Message-----
From: Louis & Kathy Young [mailto:louis@c-gate.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:32 AM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: RE: more push pull rod 2



I am not sure what that stuff is.....I bet it is 50 cents worth of lacquer
based paint that sells for $49.95 since it is for aviation.... I am sure I
have seen it for sale in A/C Spruce....I will look around....


-----Original Message-----
From: hibbs [mailto:hibbs@pacifier.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 11:50 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: RE: more push pull rod 2


On the subject of paint or ink to mark rotating nuts, what are you guys
using? I tested a couple of products in my shop last week and none
worked well. Typically, the bolt could be rotated without breaking the
"paint line". Is there a product that works really well?


--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:35 pm
by Rebflyer
Hi all,
Their is a couple of materials that you can use. One is called anti sabotage paint and it comes in a small tube, from aviall or ACS or the the easiest is nice bright red Nail polish. Either is quite britle when dry, and will break with movement. Curt N97MR
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more push pull rod 2

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:35 pm
by LisaFly99
In a message dated 12/16/00 9:37:48 PM Central Standard Time,
Rebflyer@aol.com writes:

or the the easiest is nice bright red Nail polish. Either is quite britle
when dry, and will break with


Curt
I like some of the new Neon colors. It's basically thick quick drying enamel.
And cheap.
Phil&Lisa Smith N414D

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