The Murphy Builders Site

I was interested in the Bostick 1100 for use between the bottom of the
front fiberglass retainer and the fuse. I don't want water getting back
under the fiberglass retainer -- which requires sealant coverage of at
least the front edge of the bottom of the retainer. I'm not keen to use
butyl tape sealant there because I don't want black goo oozing out of the
junction between the front of retainer and fuse on a hot day -- where
everything will be white.

I do plan on using butyl tape sealant between the fiberglass retainer and
the windshield itself, and under the sides and top, so even if the Bostick
1100 _is_ tough to remove, it would only be a problem if I had to take the
whole front retainer off the fuse.

If I'm following this thread correctly, although the butyl rubber sealant
tape method is a "known good" material and solution, except for occasional
oozing, we don't have a lot of empirical evidence about how removable the
Bostick 1100 is. Time for some experiments.

Ron
254R

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Wayne G. O'Shea

CORRECTION !! It was pointed out I may have the wrong culprit. I was
thinking Bostick 1100 is the stuff MAM was shipping for a while after
they stopped putting the tape in the winsdhield install kits. I have
realized Bostick was what Bob P was recommending and not what MAM was
shipping and what the owner of this aircraft confirmed he used. "The
tube that came from MAM".

...
...

As Wayne has said - the stuff he was wrestling with was
probably NOT Bostick 1100 ! Sure sounds more like Pro-Seal ...

I have installed Rebel windhields with Bostick 1100, and
replaced them. It is VERY low tack - and non-hardening, so ideal
for allowing Plexi to expand easily. The windshields just lifted
out easily - I was surprised how little adhesion there was to
the Bostick 1100.... left a nice smooth surface. You can get
a nice finish by wiping with a wet rag after installing, before
it cures - just like bathtub or window silicone. It cleans off nicely
this way.

Bostick 1100 is specifically recommended by the manufacturer
of the windshields. It comes in white, as well as black, and is
paintable. See: http://www.lpaero.com/accessories.html
Talk to their reps at the shows ....

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 12 February 2010 22:31, Ron Shannon wrote:

I was interested in the Bostick 1100 for use between the bottom of the
front fiberglass retainer and the fuse. I don't want water getting back
under the fiberglass retainer -- which requires sealant coverage of at
least the front edge of the bottom of the retainer. I'm not keen to use
butyl tape sealant there because I don't want black goo oozing out of the
junction between the front of retainer and fuse on a hot day -- where
everything will be white.

I do plan on using butyl tape sealant between the fiberglass retainer and
the windshield itself, and under the sides and top, so even if the
Bostick
1100 _is_ tough to remove, it would only be a problem if I had to take
the
whole front retainer off the fuse.

If I'm following this thread correctly, although the butyl rubber sealant
tape method is a "known good" material and solution, except for
occasional
oozing, we don't have a lot of empirical evidence about how removable the
Bostick 1100 is. Time for some experiments.

Ron
254R

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Wayne G. O'Shea

<oifa@irishfield.on.ca>wrote:

CORRECTION !! It was pointed out I may have the wrong culprit. I was
thinking Bostick 1100 is the stuff MAM was shipping for a while after
they stopped putting the tape in the winsdhield install kits. I have
realized Bostick was what Bob P was recommending and not what MAM was
shipping and what the owner of this aircraft confirmed he used. "The
tube that came from MAM".

...
...

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...
I have installed Rebel windhields with Bostick 1100, and
replaced them. It is VERY low tack - and non-hardening, so ideal
for allowing Plexi to expand easily. The windshields just lifted
out easily - I was surprised how little adhesion there was to
the Bostick 1100.... left a nice smooth surface. You can get
a nice finish by wiping with a wet rag after installing, before
it cures - just like bathtub or window silicone. It cleans off nicely
this way.

Bostick 1100 is specifically recommended by the manufacturer
of the windshields. It comes in white, as well as black, and is
paintable. See: http://www.lpaero.com/accessories.html
Talk to their reps at the shows ....
...

Thanks, Bob. Along with LP Aero, I'm pretty sure you're right about this
particular sealant. I found a little squeezed out drop in the bottom of both
new tubes of the Bostick 1100 that I've had in inventory for over a year.
Those little globs each had a very pliable, elastic consistency, and were
easily rubbed off the inside of the caulk tubes.

To learn more before using it, I've got an experiment underway, joining
some scraps of aluminum and Lexan. (You're right about the cleanup after
application part -- very easy.) I'll give it a couple of days to fully cure,
then will report.

Ron
254R

Thanks, Bob. Along with LP Aero, I'm pretty sure you're right about this
particular sealant. I found a little squeezed out drop in the bottom of both
new tubes of the Bostick 1100 that I've had in inventory for over a year.
Those little globs each had a very pliable, elastic consistency, and were
easily rubbed off the inside of the caulk tubes.

To learn more before using it, I've got an experiment underway, joining
some scraps of aluminum and Lexan. (You're right about the cleanup after
application part -- very easy.) I'll give it a couple of days to fully cure,
then will report.

Ron
254R

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 04:34:06 -0800
From: im_planecrazy@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Windshield install with Bostick - DO !!
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Thanks Ron......very good synopsis.
Keith R661

--- On Tue, 2/16/10, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:


From: Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Windshield install with Bostick - DO !!
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 12:24 AM


Following are the very subjective results of my unscientific test of the
Bostick 1100 urethane sealant... not quite what I was expecting. Bottom
line? The 1100 bond was stronger than I'm comfortable using where I wanted
to use it -- under the fiberglass retainer.

I used a Scotchbrite cleaned 2" x 8" strip of bare .025 6061, with a 1/2"
wide bead of black Bostick 1100 down the middle, joined to a slightly larger
piece of Lexan, squashing the joint to about 1/16" separation. After a day
and a half, I attempted to pull them apart -- which took considerable
effort. I could not separate the materials by pulling along the long axis of
the strips. To get them apart, I had to pull from one end of the aluminum
strip, and ended up bending, and probably stretching the aluminum a fair
amount. [An important here caveat is that on a large, stable aluminum
structure like the fuse, that may not have been the case before separation
with the other smooth (windshield) surface.]

The sealant eventually pulled off the (smooth) surface of the Lexan cleanly,
leaving no visible residue at all. I assume smooth acrylic would separate
the same way. The 1100 is still firmly attached to the bare aluminum and
would be difficult to remove. IMHO, if the 1100 was used in any junction
with the fiberglass retainer, the sealant would adhere strongly to the
fiberglass, and the retainer could be damaged by the force necessary to
separate it from the windshield, especially if the retainer remained riveted
to the fuse. I would also be concerned about using the 1100 between the
fiberglass and the fuse because it would bond strongly to both. (Note that I
did not test on any painted surface, and all my aluminum sealing surfaces
have been pre-painted.)

The 1100 sealant remained quite pliable, and though I didn't try it, I
believe the parts could have been separated by dragging a wire between these
flat surfaces. However, the wire cutter method might not be easy to do with
the curved, irregular surface of the fiberglass retainer joints, especially
on the windshield face. On the upside, the 1100 clearly would not leak and,
at least if the sealant was laid on fairly thick, the pliability is
sufficient to allow for at least some thermal cycling movement of the
windshield.

Obviously, these are very subjective impressions. I encourage others to do
their own tests. Your mileage will vary.

I was only planning to use the 1100 between the fiberglass retainer and the
fuse, but have decided against it. Instead, I plan to use 3M 8509 Bedding
and Glazing Compound between the fiberglass retainer and the fuse. It is a
robust standard auto product that I've seen on other airplanes, with no
problems reported, and recommended by my A&P neighbor who has made his
living for many year doing custom aircraft restorations. When applied, it's
quite viscous, so it will spread easily between fiberglass, fuse, and rubber
channel, and not be so thick as to make it difficult to draw down the
rivets. The 8509 remains quite pliable when cured, and will allow ample
thermal cycle movement. It can be separated/removed with relative ease, and
produces little if any ooze on hot days.

I'll probably use the butyl rubber sealant tape between the fiberglass
retainer and the windshield -- an area where I do want a relatively thick,
non-running sealant, although I may use some of the 8509 there too. I'll use
the tape sealant at the side and and top joints between windshield and fuse
(and will line the metal retainers with light foam along their forward,
contact edges to reduce chafe.) Among other benefits, the tape sealant is
easy to apply and won't run during installation.

In a day or two, it should all be done. Knock on wood, or whatever works.

Ron
254R


On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

Thanks, Bob. Along with LP Aero, I'm pretty sure you're right about this
particular sealant. I found a little squeezed out drop in the bottom of both
new tubes of the Bostick 1100 that I've had in inventory for over a year.
Those little globs each had a very pliable, elastic consistency, and were
easily rubbed off the inside of the caulk tubes.

To learn more before using it, I've got an experiment underway, joining
some scraps of aluminum and Lexan. (You're right about the cleanup after
application part -- very easy.) I'll give it a couple of days to fully cure,
then will report.

Ron
254R

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Ron, what did you use for rubber channel? Is it the stuff from ACS or did
you find something better? Thanks.

I am using ACS p/n 05-00597. It has a 1/8" channel, a slightly rounded
bottom, and different heights on each side. I am placing the higher side
forward.

Ron
254R


On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>wrote:

Ron, what did you use for rubber channel? Is it the stuff from ACS or did
you find something better? Thanks.

From: rshannon@cruzcom.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:24:00 -0800
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Windshield install with Bostick - DO !!
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Following are the very subjective results of my unscientific test of the
Bostick 1100 urethane sealant... not quite what I was expecting. Bottom
line? The 1100 bond was stronger than I'm comfortable using where I wanted
to use it -- under the fiberglass retainer.

I used a Scotchbrite cleaned 2" x 8" strip of bare .025 6061, with a 1/2"
wide bead of black Bostick 1100 down the middle, joined to a slightly larger
piece of Lexan, squashing the joint to about 1/16" separation. After a day
and a half, I attempted to pull them apart -- which took considerable
effort. I could not separate the materials by pulling along the long axis of
the strips. To get them apart, I had to pull from one end of the aluminum
strip, and ended up bending, and probably stretching the aluminum a fair
amount. [An important here caveat is that on a large, stable aluminum
structure like the fuse, that may not have been the case before separation
with the other smooth (windshield) surface.]

The sealant eventually pulled off the (smooth) surface of the Lexan cleanly,
leaving no visible residue at all. I assume smooth acrylic would separate
the same way. The 1100 is still firmly attached to the bare aluminum and
would be difficult to remove. IMHO, if the 1100 was used in any junction
with the fiberglass retainer, the sealant would adhere strongly to the
fiberglass, and the retainer could be damaged by the force necessary to
separate it from the windshield, especially if the retainer remained riveted
to the fuse. I would also be concerned about using the 1100 between the
fiberglass and the fuse because it would bond strongly to both. (Note that I
did not test on any painted surface, and all my aluminum sealing surfaces
have been pre-painted.)

The 1100 sealant remained quite pliable, and though I didn't try it, I
believe the parts could have been separated by dragging a wire between these
flat surfaces. However, the wire cutter method might not be easy to do with
the curved, irregular surface of the fiberglass retainer joints, especially
on the windshield face. On the upside, the 1100 clearly would not leak and,
at least if the sealant was laid on fairly thick, the pliability is
sufficient to allow for at least some thermal cycling movement of the
windshield.

Obviously, these are very subjective impressions. I encourage others to do
their own tests. Your mileage will vary.

I was only planning to use the 1100 between the fiberglass retainer and the
fuse, but have decided against it. Instead, I plan to use 3M 8509 Bedding
and Glazing Compound between the fiberglass retainer and the fuse. It is a
robust standard auto product that I've seen on other airplanes, with no
problems reported, and recommended by my A&P neighbor who has made his
living for many year doing custom aircraft restorations. When applied, it's
quite viscous, so it will spread easily between fiberglass, fuse, and rubber
channel, and not be so thick as to make it difficult to draw down the
rivets. The 8509 remains quite pliable when cured, and will allow ample
thermal cycle movement. It can be separated/removed with relative ease, and
produces little if any ooze on hot days.

I'll probably use the butyl rubber sealant tape between the fiberglass
retainer and the windshield -- an area where I do want a relatively thick,
non-running sealant, although I may use some of the 8509 there too. I'll use
the tape sealant at the side and and top joints between windshield and fuse
(and will line the metal retainers with light foam along their forward,
contact edges to reduce chafe.) Among other benefits, the tape sealant is
easy to apply and won't run during installation.

In a day or two, it should all be done. Knock on wood, or whatever works.

Ron
254R


On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

Thanks, Bob. Along with LP Aero, I'm pretty sure you're right about this
particular sealant. I found a little squeezed out drop in the bottom of both
new tubes of the Bostick 1100 that I've had in inventory for over a year.
Those little globs each had a very pliable, elastic consistency, and were
easily rubbed off the inside of the caulk tubes.

To learn more before using it, I've got an experiment underway, joining
some scraps of aluminum and Lexan. (You're right about the cleanup after
application part -- very easy.) I'll give it a couple of days to fully cure,
then will report.

Ron
254R

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Ron,
Maybe I missed it, but how did your windshield install go?

No, Jesse, you didn't miss the windshield install -- yet. Hasn't happened
yet because life has been interfering with art again. Usually, I hate it
when that happens. However, today's interruption was welcome, and very
special! Although I've been flying for almost 5 years now, my better half
-- who is quite the gutsy outdoorsy adventurer in other arenas -- hasn't
flown in anything smaller than a regional jet for 35 years. (She had a
frightening experience in a surprise, heavy 1000 ft. slip in a Saratoga
way
back then.) So we've both been waiting for her to get psyched up to fly in
a
small plane again, for obvious reasons, and finally, today....

With rare CAVU weather here in the Puget Sound area, she went up with me
out
of Arlington for nearly three hours (!) as we took a spectacular tour
around
the north half of the Sound. First we ambled NE, exploring a couple of
canyons on the western slope of the craggy Cascades, at one point turning
a
corner to see a sudden, imposing view of snow-covered Mt. Baker dead
ahead,
then west out over the San Juan Islands for lunch at Friday Harbor. After
that, we headed south across the Strait of Juan De Fuca, noting the sun on
the Pacific far to the west, climbing to 8500 for a slow cruise along the
northern edge of the snowy Olympic Mtn. range, looking down on dozens of
valleys, rivers and ridges she's hiked many times. Needless to say, we
both
had a fantastic time. It was a stunningly beautiful flight, and a very
special day for both of us. Could not have been better for her first
flight.
I can't really describe how super it is to finally have her flying with
me,
and see her enjoying every bit of it -- but all pilots will know what I'm
talking about. We are both looking forward to a lot more flying
together --
in 254R, when it's done, of course.

Everything is ready and all the parts laid out for the windshield install.
Tomorrow, if we can get our feet back on the ground, we'll do it. :-)

Ron
254R


On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Ron,
Maybe I missed it, but how did your windshield install go?

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Ron,

When you finish building you can become a writer. A very readable,
engaging
description of your "perfect" day. Thanks. CW

Ron,

When you finish building you can become a writer. A very readable,
engaging
description of your "perfect" day. Thanks. CW

Ron,
Maybe I missed it, but how did your windshield install go?

From: rshannon@cruzcom.com
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:36:47 -0800
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Windshield install with Bostick - DO !!
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

No, Jesse, you didn't miss the windshield install -- yet. Hasn't happened
yet because life has been interfering with art again. Usually, I hate it
when that happens. However, today's interruption was welcome, and very
special! Although I've been flying for almost 5 years now, my better half
-- who is quite the gutsy outdoorsy adventurer in other arenas -- hasn't
flown in anything smaller than a regional jet for 35 years. (She had a
frightening experience in a surprise, heavy 1000 ft. slip in a Saratoga way
back then.) So we've both been waiting for her to get psyched up to fly in a
small plane again, for obvious reasons, and finally, today....

With rare CAVU weather here in the Puget Sound area, she went up with me out
of Arlington for nearly three hours (!) as we took a spectacular tour around
the north half of the Sound. First we ambled NE, exploring a couple of
canyons on the western slope of the craggy Cascades, at one point turning a
corner to see a sudden, imposing view of snow-covered Mt. Baker dead ahead,
then west out over the San Juan Islands for lunch at Friday Harbor. After
that, we headed south across the Strait of Juan De Fuca, noting the sun on
the Pacific far to the west, climbing to 8500 for a slow cruise along the
northern edge of the snowy Olympic Mtn. range, looking down on dozens of
valleys, rivers and ridges she's hiked many times. Needless to say, we both
had a fantastic time. It was a stunningly beautiful flight, and a very
special day for both of us. Could not have been better for her first flight.
I can't really describe how super it is to finally have her flying with me,
and see her enjoying every bit of it -- but all pilots will know what I'm
talking about. We are both looking forward to a lot more flying together --
in 254R, when it's done, of course.

Everything is ready and all the parts laid out for the windshield install.
Tomorrow, if we can get our feet back on the ground, we'll do it. :-)

Ron
254R


On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com> wrote:

Ron,
Maybe I missed it, but how did your windshield install go?

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