Page 1 of 3

Fuel Lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by Wayne G. O'Shea
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Your following message has been delivered to the 170 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 13:30:56 on 25 Nov 2000.
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Just to add to Brian's excellent suggestion of not putting rubber lines
under the floor: There is not a good logical reason to put them ANYWHERE on
the Rebel, other than the proper stratoflex (or similar) fuel line from the
gascolator to the carb. All other fuel lines can (and IMH Opinion, should)
be aluminum. The only thing I would use the red rubber hose for is to
prevent chaffing of the lines where they go through aluminum bulkheads etc,
if you don't have a good supply of grommets!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "rebelair" <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2000 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: Elvevator deflection

Hi Bruce

I did not rerout the fuel lines under the floor. I picked the same
general
path as per MAM but did not use hose per MAM. I used only 3/8" tube under
the floor. I did not take the fuel line aft of the side windows but
forward
of it down the vertical door sill, (aft of the door frame).

I then sloped the fuel line down following the FUS-28 material until it
disappears behind the rolled corners on the inside. Now with the aircraft
in the 3 point position, I am able to drain the lines thru taps in the
lower
floor. Made a special fitting to anchor the fuel lines at this point to
the outer floor. This will prevent any flexing or vibration of the fuel
lines & give a firm anchor for the quick drain etc.

The fuel line is then brought through the unused holes in the main cross
members of the aircraft (forgot the part numbers), i.e. the 2" square
tube.
Then follow the corner wraps to the firewall per MAM plans.

I do not think it is wise to put the rubber lines under the floor per MAM
drawings. Tearing the floor out to fix or tighten a hose clamp does not
sound too smart for me.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2000 11:29 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Elvevator deflection


Brian,

Thanks for all the help. I have the old one cc-68. I was able to rig the
elevator with 35 deg up and 25 deg down. The stick clears the panel and
seat
but still stands up straight in neutral, i.e., to far forward to be really
comfortable for me. I still have room to bend it back some and clear the
seat, or just get a new one from MAM. Maybe I'll get used to it after a
few
hours. I have to much left to do right now so I'll concern myself with
other
priorities right now.

Did you route you're fuel lines under the floor?

Bruce G 357R
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Fuel Lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by Wayne G. O'Shea
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Your following message has been delivered to the 170 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 21:23:46 on 10 Dec 2000.
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Scott, I've "Been there, done that"!

Both Howard's Rebel and mine have two fuel valves between the seats that,
after the valves, join into one forward line that runs through the
carrythroughs and along the side of the 5/8" x 5/8" stiffener tube on the
floor. Then a 90* bend over to the gascolators fitting through the firewall.
The fuel line then has a "hat" cover put over it, the same as the elevator
cables, to keep it from getting damaged. Just make sure that the hole is
drilled through the carrythroughs on the neutral bend axis (the center),
just like those pre-punched wiring/plumbing holes on "silent beams" for
house construction.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca


----- Original Message -----
From: "hibbs" <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: Fin offset 1/2" or 3/4" or more?

Now to decide how to route the fuel lines. I am tempted to drill a 1/2"
hole in the center of the FUS-5 carrythroughs to run a single line
forward under the floor. I have asked Murphy for some formal advice on
that idea.
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
Rebel 300R
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Fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm
by rebelair
Hi Alister

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I can understand your frustration. The only rubber hose that I trust is the ones that I can fully see/inspect. I took a friend up for his first airplane ride in a 'homebuilt'. Wouldn't you know it. I noticed fuel in the cockpit during my runup. I only have two pieces of rubber hose in the cockpit at the wing root area. It gets your attention. The rubber obviously sets from the hose clamps over time. Not a great way to introduce somebody to homebuilding when you have to taxi back for precautionary repairs.

The fuel system is an area where maximum thought must take place to make maintenance easy. That is why I disagree strongly with MAM's recommendations of the fuel line routing etc.

I am sorry you have problems Alister. How are you going to get at it. Must you remove rolled corners? Good thing you are such an accomplished builder. Should only hold you up briefly.

Best Regards

Brian #328R
-----Original Message-----
From: A G Yeoman [mailto:yeoman@voyager.co.nz]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 3:49 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Fuel lines


Hi all,
Just thought I would drop this in as an 'eyes up'. I have just been to the hangar to refuel the Rebel and I smelt fuel in the cockpit area.

On investigation I found quite bad fuel stains on the inner rear floor skins, it looks as if the flexible fuel lines supplied with the kit that run under the skins in the cockpit area are leaking -- what a pain!!

All I can say is when building do as others in this group have been saying and fit solid fuel lines.

So-- its out of the air again for repair!

Cheers

Alister

Fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:35 pm
by A G Yeoman
Hi all,
Just thought I would drop this in as an 'eyes up'. I have just been to the hangar to refuel the Rebel and I smelt fuel in the cockpit area.

On investigation I found quite bad fuel stains on the inner rear floor skins, it looks as if the flexible fuel lines supplied with the kit that run under the skins in the cockpit area are leaking -- what a pain!!

All I can say is when building do as others in this group have been saying and fit solid fuel lines.

So-- its out of the air again for repair!

Cheers

Alister

Fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:35 pm
by A G Yeoman
Hi Brian,
I guess that will have to be the way, remove all the inside panels that are required to get to the flexible hoses.

This really makes me wish I put the solid lines in the first time!!

Cheers

Alister
----- Original Message -----
From: rebelair (rebelair@idirect.com)
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: Fuel lines


Hi Alister

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I can understand your frustration. The only rubber hose that I trust is the ones that I can fully see/inspect. I took a friend up for his first airplane ride in a 'homebuilt'. Wouldn't you know it. I noticed fuel in the cockpit during my runup. I only have two pieces of rubber hose in the cockpit at the wing root area. It gets your attention. The rubber obviously sets from the hose clamps over time. Not a great way to introduce somebody to homebuilding when you have to taxi back for precautionary repairs.

The fuel system is an area where maximum thought must take place to make maintenance easy. That is why I disagree strongly with MAM's recommendations of the fuel line routing etc.

I am sorry you have problems Alister. How are you going to get at it. Must you remove rolled corners? Good thing you are such an accomplished builder. Should only hold you up briefly.

Best Regards

Brian #328R
-----Original Message-----
From: A G Yeoman [mailto:yeoman@voyager.co.nz]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 3:49 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Fuel lines


Hi all,
Just thought I would drop this in as an 'eyes up'. I have just been to the hangar to refuel the Rebel and I smelt fuel in the cockpit area.

On investigation I found quite bad fuel stains on the inner rear floor skins, it looks as if the flexible fuel lines supplied with the kit that run under the skins in the cockpit area are leaking -- what a pain!!

All I can say is when building do as others in this group have been saying and fit solid fuel lines.

So-- its out of the air again for repair!

Cheers

Alister

fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm
by Walter Klatt
Also, Rick, I don't know if you are using bungee gear or the new spring gear, but if it
is bungee, you should be aware of a possible hazard. I had a landing accident with my
plane where the rear drag strut pushed up through the rear fitting and into the floor
puncturing my fuel line. I ended up with fuel inside the cabin area, but fortunately
there was no fire. My lines were routed exactly as per MAM's manual, but if I did it
over, I would route them to the center of the floor to avoid the rear gear strut fitting.

"Wayne G. O'Shea" wrote:
Rick, DO NOT run the fuel lines forward and then down (unless you are
running an electric fuel pump)!!!! When low on fuel, with the A/C at a high
angle of attack, the fuel is being supplied by "siphon" action to the carb,
as there is no longer any "head" pressure available from the tank. If you
happen to drop a wing (especially if only running on one tank) the siphon
will be broken (as the fuel goes away from the inlet) and most likely you
will be unable to get the siphon going again. The engine will run for a
short while, until the carb bowl and immediate line goes empty, then you're
a GLIDER! If you run the lines back and then down as shown in the manual,
the only way you will have fuel problems will be if you hold a VERY steep
dive for a VERY long time, or if you run the tanks dry!

Just my 2 cents, but of course it is your Rebel, so the choice is ALWAYS
yours!!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard DeCiero" <rsdec1@star.net>
To: "Rebel Builders" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:15 PM
Subject: fuel lines
Hello everyone,
I need some comments on my approach to my proposed fuel line
routing. My plan is to run the main lines along the outside bottom of
the fuselage root ribs (FUS-27 L&R) and then either down the side (the
narrow side facing the center of the A/C) or down the back(the wide side
facing the rear of the A/C) of the front door post uprights(FUS-4). I
could also run the first portion inside along the bottom of the root
ribs and jump inside and down the door post. When the line gets to the
main square tubes it will run downhill to the center of the A/C. At this
point I will tee the two lines (one from each side) together and also
have a sump drain there. Now one line will run up to the firewall and
gascolator. These lines could be enclosed in a cover arrangement to
avoid damage. Stainless steel line is also an option for these. One
other possibility for line material (5/16" i.d.) is high pressure teflon
hose that is enclosed in a braided stainless steel jacket. The braided
hose assemblies are about $30.00 each for a six foot long hose.Available
from McMacter-Carr. These hoses are typically used for oil pressure
lines and other high pressure applications.
Feel free to bombard me will all of your comments.
Thanks,
Rick D.

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fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm
by hibbs
Rick, I am taking the fuel lines from the outlet back to behind the
window and down. They will meet in the middle at a T (located about
1.5' behind the front seats) with a drain and a single line will run
forward from there, through the carry throughs to the firewall. I'll
only use aircraft fuel lines and fittings. The only question now is if
I want to use the Facet electric pump I have. I tried to blow through
it (simulating a failed pump) and I was not impressed with the flow.
Does anyone have experience with the Facet pumps and failure? Mine is
rated at 30 GPH.

--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm
by Richard DeCiero
Hello everyone,
I need some comments on my approach to my proposed fuel line
routing. My plan is to run the main lines along the outside bottom of
the fuselage root ribs (FUS-27 L&R) and then either down the side (the
narrow side facing the center of the A/C) or down the back(the wide side
facing the rear of the A/C) of the front door post uprights(FUS-4). I
could also run the first portion inside along the bottom of the root
ribs and jump inside and down the door post. When the line gets to the
main square tubes it will run downhill to the center of the A/C. At this
point I will tee the two lines (one from each side) together and also
have a sump drain there. Now one line will run up to the firewall and
gascolator. These lines could be enclosed in a cover arrangement to
avoid damage. Stainless steel line is also an option for these. One
other possibility for line material (5/16" i.d.) is high pressure teflon
hose that is enclosed in a braided stainless steel jacket. The braided
hose assemblies are about $30.00 each for a six foot long hose.Available
from McMacter-Carr. These hoses are typically used for oil pressure
lines and other high pressure applications.
Feel free to bombard me will all of your comments.
Thanks,
Rick D.

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fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm
by Wayne G. O'Shea
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Your following message has been delivered to the 189 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 22:11:02 on 1 Feb 2001.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Rick, DO NOT run the fuel lines forward and then down (unless you are
running an electric fuel pump)!!!! When low on fuel, with the A/C at a high
angle of attack, the fuel is being supplied by "siphon" action to the carb,
as there is no longer any "head" pressure available from the tank. If you
happen to drop a wing (especially if only running on one tank) the siphon
will be broken (as the fuel goes away from the inlet) and most likely you
will be unable to get the siphon going again. The engine will run for a
short while, until the carb bowl and immediate line goes empty, then you're
a GLIDER! If you run the lines back and then down as shown in the manual,
the only way you will have fuel problems will be if you hold a VERY steep
dive for a VERY long time, or if you run the tanks dry!

Just my 2 cents, but of course it is your Rebel, so the choice is ALWAYS
yours!!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard DeCiero" <rsdec1@star.net>
To: "Rebel Builders" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:15 PM
Subject: fuel lines

Hello everyone,
I need some comments on my approach to my proposed fuel line
routing. My plan is to run the main lines along the outside bottom of
the fuselage root ribs (FUS-27 L&R) and then either down the side (the
narrow side facing the center of the A/C) or down the back(the wide side
facing the rear of the A/C) of the front door post uprights(FUS-4). I
could also run the first portion inside along the bottom of the root
ribs and jump inside and down the door post. When the line gets to the
main square tubes it will run downhill to the center of the A/C. At this
point I will tee the two lines (one from each side) together and also
have a sump drain there. Now one line will run up to the firewall and
gascolator. These lines could be enclosed in a cover arrangement to
avoid damage. Stainless steel line is also an option for these. One
other possibility for line material (5/16" i.d.) is high pressure teflon
hose that is enclosed in a braided stainless steel jacket. The braided
hose assemblies are about $30.00 each for a six foot long hose.Available
from McMacter-Carr. These hoses are typically used for oil pressure
lines and other high pressure applications.
Feel free to bombard me will all of your comments.
Thanks,
Rick D.

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fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm
by Legeorgen
Walter,

MAM (via conversation with Grant last week) now recommends running the fuel
line to the center of the fuselage, behind the seat with a tee, and then one
fuel line up the center between the two seats to the firewall.

Bruce 357R
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fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm
by Bob Patterson
Hi Scott !

That sounds like a VERY good routing for the fuel lines. It is
a good idea to put a separate plate (about 3" diameter) on the bottom
of the fuselage, to mount the fuel drain fitting at the junction under
the floor. This is the lowest point, and those drains DO wear out -
the circular plate, rivetted or nut-plated in place, makes it easy
to get at the drain to replace it. You might want to use an aircraft
drain that has a pin that locks into tabs on the sides instead of
the plain push-up ones supplied - it makes life easier when you
want to drain the tanks completely ...

There is NO need WHATSOEVER for a fuel pump - just another
thing to go wrong ! ;-)

.......bobp

-----------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 10:02 PM 2/1/01 -0800, you wrote:
Rick, I am taking the fuel lines from the outlet back to behind the
window and down. They will meet in the middle at a T (located about
1.5' behind the front seats) with a drain and a single line will run
forward from there, through the carry throughs to the firewall. I'll
only use aircraft fuel lines and fittings. The only question now is if
I want to use the Facet electric pump I have. I tried to blow through
it (simulating a failed pump) and I was not impressed with the flow.
Does anyone have experience with the Facet pumps and failure? Mine is
rated at 30 GPH.

--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm
by Bob Patterson
Hi Rick !

PLEASE - DO NOT run your lines forward !! (Unless you have
an engine that will run on AIR ! ;-) )

There are MANY Rebels flying with the lines going back, down
behind the door. If you don't want to have the lines under the floor,
you COULD run them along the top of the side flooring, with a screw-on
cover, under the doors. This is a fairly safe spot, where they won't
likely get kicked ....

.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 09:15 PM 2/1/01 -0500, you wrote:
Hello everyone,
I need some comments on my approach to my proposed fuel line
routing. My plan is to run the main lines along the outside bottom of
the fuselage root ribs (FUS-27 L&R) and then either down the side (the
narrow side facing the center of the A/C) or down the back(the wide side
facing the rear of the A/C) of the front door post uprights(FUS-4). I
could also run the first portion inside along the bottom of the root
ribs and jump inside and down the door post. When the line gets to the
main square tubes it will run downhill to the center of the A/C. At this
point I will tee the two lines (one from each side) together and also
have a sump drain there. Now one line will run up to the firewall and
gascolator. These lines could be enclosed in a cover arrangement to
avoid damage. Stainless steel line is also an option for these. One
other possibility for line material (5/16" i.d.) is high pressure teflon
hose that is enclosed in a braided stainless steel jacket. The braided
hose assemblies are about $30.00 each for a six foot long hose.Available
from McMacter-Carr. These hoses are typically used for oil pressure
lines and other high pressure applications.
Feel free to bombard me will all of your comments.
Thanks,
Rick D.

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fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm
by Richard DeCiero
Hello again,
Immediatly after posting my proposed foward routing of the lines I
went out and looked the situation over again. I came to the conclusion
that unreliable flow would result. As soon as the A/C is tipped back
there would be no more flow. Alternate plan is to run it back and then
to the center and forward up the center from there, as several of you
had mentioned. By the way I have the spring gear.
Thanks for your help,
Rick D.

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fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm
by David Ricker
Richard

Just one comment, the lines you will buy from McMaster Carr are probably available from
your local hydraulic shop at a better price. McMaster Carr normally sells at a premium
to what you can buy from local trade shops like the hydraulic supplier and you have
shipping and handling (and to Canada duty and GST etc. etc.) The local shop will also
make the lines to your spec for fittings & length.

You should look for the Aeroquip (brand) line or an equivalent.

Dave R.


Richard DeCiero wrote:
Hello everyone,
I need some comments on my approach to my proposed fuel line
routing. My plan is to run the main lines along the outside bottom of
the fuselage root ribs (FUS-27 L&R) and then either down the side (the
narrow side facing the center of the A/C) or down the back(the wide side
facing the rear of the A/C) of the front door post uprights(FUS-4). I
could also run the first portion inside along the bottom of the root
ribs and jump inside and down the door post. When the line gets to the
main square tubes it will run downhill to the center of the A/C. At this
point I will tee the two lines (one from each side) together and also
have a sump drain there. Now one line will run up to the firewall and
gascolator. These lines could be enclosed in a cover arrangement to
avoid damage. Stainless steel line is also an option for these. One
other possibility for line material (5/16" i.d.) is high pressure teflon
hose that is enclosed in a braided stainless steel jacket. The braided
hose assemblies are about $30.00 each for a six foot long hose.Available
from McMacter-Carr. These hoses are typically used for oil pressure
lines and other high pressure applications.
Feel free to bombard me will all of your comments.
Thanks,
Rick D.

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David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
3 Tamarac Drive
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Ph. 902-860-0256


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fuel lines

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm
by Rob Kosciusko
Mr Wayne O'Shea,
I have been getting about ten emails a day from this Murphy Rebel Builders
List, and I don't even know how my email got added to the list. I am not
building anything. Do you know how to take me off the list, can you do
that? If not, would it be possible for you to forward this email to someone
who can take me off the list? I'd really appreciate.
Thank you sir,
Rob Kosciusko
My email is robkoz@alum.mit.edu
or robkoz@worldnet.att.net.
I don't know which one of these is on your list.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: fuel lines

Rick, DO NOT run the fuel lines forward and then down (unless you are
running an electric fuel pump)!!!! When low on fuel, with the A/C at a
high
angle of attack, the fuel is being supplied by "siphon" action to the
carb,
as there is no longer any "head" pressure available from the tank. If you
happen to drop a wing (especially if only running on one tank) the siphon
will be broken (as the fuel goes away from the inlet) and most likely you
will be unable to get the siphon going again. The engine will run for a
short while, until the carb bowl and immediate line goes empty, then
you're
a GLIDER! If you run the lines back and then down as shown in the manual,
the only way you will have fuel problems will be if you hold a VERY steep
dive for a VERY long time, or if you run the tanks dry!

Just my 2 cents, but of course it is your Rebel, so the choice is ALWAYS
yours!!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard DeCiero" <rsdec1@star.net>
To: "Rebel Builders" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:15 PM
Subject: fuel lines

Hello everyone,
I need some comments on my approach to my proposed fuel line
routing. My plan is to run the main lines along the outside bottom of
the fuselage root ribs (FUS-27 L&R) and then either down the side (the
narrow side facing the center of the A/C) or down the back(the wide side
facing the rear of the A/C) of the front door post uprights(FUS-4). I
could also run the first portion inside along the bottom of the root
ribs and jump inside and down the door post. When the line gets to the
main square tubes it will run downhill to the center of the A/C. At this
point I will tee the two lines (one from each side) together and also
have a sump drain there. Now one line will run up to the firewall and
gascolator. These lines could be enclosed in a cover arrangement to
avoid damage. Stainless steel line is also an option for these. One
other possibility for line material (5/16" i.d.) is high pressure teflon
hose that is enclosed in a braided stainless steel jacket. The braided
hose assemblies are about $30.00 each for a six foot long hose.Available
from McMacter-Carr. These hoses are typically used for oil pressure
lines and other high pressure applications.
Feel free to bombard me will all of your comments.
Thanks,
Rick D.

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Contributors' page at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/contributors.htm
Visit the book store at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/book_store.htm
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/archives.htm
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*




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