The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:49 pm**

Thanks for the update Wayne.......

Cheers,
Jeff

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>wrote:

Not sure if anyone on the list is still in the wing build stage on their
Rebel... but if you are......I've been "inside" 7 wings since late
September
and every friggin one of them has the AN3 bolts "shouldered". These are the
bolts that attach the 1/4" thick spar caps to the main spar. One wing, out
of a pair, that I was in.. even had the spar backer bolted in this way the
FULL length of the wing !!.. not just the three bays around the attach
strut.

The overlength bolt/threads showing is an oversight on MAM's part in the
manual and in their AN960-10 washer supply... but every one of these bolts
needs an extra washer fellas so go buy a couple hundred now for $20. When
you can see 3+ threads showing on an AN3 bolt the nut is shouldered onto
the
grip of the bolt and it's not really tight..and possible that it's been
cracked from running out of thread.

The really sad part.. only two of these wings that I've inspected/worked on
are USA built that can have an "excuse" with no preclose inspections south
of our border.. but the Canadian ones.. should have been snagged before
they
got closed up this way!

That is all...

;O)
Wayne

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:49 pm**

Thanks for the info, I am still in the wing build stage and will double check them.

Andrew R779

From: oifa@irishfield.on.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:08:08 -0500

Not sure if anyone on the list is still in the wing build stage on their
Rebel... but if you are......I've been "inside" 7 wings since late September
and every friggin one of them has the AN3 bolts "shouldered". These are the
bolts that attach the 1/4" thick spar caps to the main spar. One wing, out
of a pair, that I was in.. even had the spar backer bolted in this way the
FULL length of the wing !!.. not just the three bays around the attach
strut.

The overlength bolt/threads showing is an oversight on MAM's part in the
manual and in their AN960-10 washer supply... but every one of these bolts
needs an extra washer fellas so go buy a couple hundred now for $20. When
you can see 3+ threads showing on an AN3 bolt the nut is shouldered onto the
grip of the bolt and it's not really tight..and possible that it's been
cracked from running out of thread.

The really sad part.. only two of these wings that I've inspected/worked on
are USA built that can have an "excuse" with no preclose inspections south
of our border.. but the Canadian ones.. should have been snagged before they
got closed up this way!

That is all...

;O)
Wayne

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:49 pm**

Thanks for heads up Wayne, I'll check mine tomorrow.
Nig

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: 02 December 2009 18:08
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.

Not sure if anyone on the list is still in the wing build stage on their
Rebel... but if you are......I've been "inside" 7 wings since late September

and every friggin one of them has the AN3 bolts "shouldered". These are the
bolts that attach the 1/4" thick spar caps to the main spar. One wing, out
of a pair, that I was in.. even had the spar backer bolted in this way the
FULL length of the wing !!.. not just the three bays around the attach
strut.

The overlength bolt/threads showing is an oversight on MAM's part in the
manual and in their AN960-10 washer supply... but every one of these bolts
needs an extra washer fellas so go buy a couple hundred now for $20. When
you can see 3+ threads showing on an AN3 bolt the nut is shouldered onto the

grip of the bolt and it's not really tight..and possible that it's been
cracked from running out of thread.

The really sad part.. only two of these wings that I've inspected/worked on
are USA built that can have an "excuse" with no preclose inspections south
of our border.. but the Canadian ones.. should have been snagged before they

got closed up this way!

That is all...

;O)
Wayne

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:49 pm**

Well, maybe I did something right. My wing is not yet closed up and I just looked...I have 3 washers on the nut end of the bolts with approx. 1 thread showing. Sorry to say I haven't been able to work on it for over a year. :(

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:49 pm**

Keith,

I think you will find that those should be the next length shorter bolt
with one washer under the nut.

Bob.

Leitch wrote:

Well, maybe I did something right. My wing is not yet closed up and I just looked...I have 3 washers on the nut end of the bolts with approx. 1 thread showing. Sorry to say I haven't been able to work on it for over a year. :(

Keith R661

--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> wrote:

From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 12:08 PM

Not sure if anyone on the list is still in the wing build stage on their
Rebel... but if you are......I've been "inside" 7 wings since late September
and every friggin one of them has the AN3 bolts "shouldered". These are the
bolts that attach the 1/4" thick spar caps to the main spar. One wing, out
of a pair, that I was in.. even had the spar backer bolted in this way the
FULL length of the wing !!.. not just the three bays around the attach
strut.

The overlength bolt/threads showing is an oversight on MAM's part in the
manual and in their AN960-10 washer supply... but every one of these bolts
needs an extra washer fellas so go buy a couple hundred now for $20. When
you can see 3+ threads showing on an AN3 bolt the nut is shouldered onto the
grip of the bolt and it's not really tight..and possible that it's been
cracked from running out of thread.

The really sad part.. only two of these wings that I've inspected/worked on
are USA built that can have an "excuse" with no preclose inspections south
of our border.. but the Canadian ones.. should have been snagged before they
got closed up this way!

That is all...

;O)
Wayne

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:49 pm**

Thanks Bob. I will try and replace the one's I have in there but some of them already are sealed with Pro-Seal. :(
I did know about the thread count and was wondering why MAM had put those long bolts in there. I was running out of washers and bought a couple bags while at Oshkosh. Guess I should have gotten bolts instead.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:49 pm**

In some cases the next smaller AN3 bolt is tooo short. Where 3 washers are
required, to get a good thread count, I generally put one washer under the
head.. two under the nut. Be careful in many places using a shorter bolt..
which will put part of the thread area of the bolt inside the grip area. Ie:
you could use one length shorter bolt to attach your gear struts, wing
attach fittings, etc.. but instead of having a nice toleranced smooth shank
of the bolt for the fitting to be retained by.. you will have a sloppy,
threaded area of the bolt instead.... that could cause fatigue/wear failure
if not just a sloppy attachment in general. I always shoot for the grip of
the bolt to be peeking out ever so slightly from the assembly in critical
attachments and washer it accordingly.

In cases of closed wings.. not much you can do about them lads other than
hope the majority are sound and not cracked. Just pointing this out for the
guys that can do something about it before you get stuff closed up.. and
didn't mean to throw anyone off with the FULL LENGTH OF THE WING
statement... I was trying to describe the fact that the builder of one
Rebel, that I was asked to travel and inspect, had bolted a 1/4" x 1" spar
cap to the ENTIRE length of the main spars upper flange (on one wing only).
Instead of the, I believe 42 or 44" length you are supposed to use from just
inside the 3rd bay of the fuel tank to out past the lift strut fitting. That
one I took the time to run by Darryl directly... as was concerned about the
extra rigidity of the spar !

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.

Keith,

I think you will find that those should be the next length shorter bolt
with one washer under the nut.

Bob.

Leitch wrote:
Well, maybe I did something right. My wing is not yet closed up and I
just looked...I have 3 washers on the nut end of the bolts with approx. 1
thread showing. Sorry to say I haven't been able to work on it for over a
year. :(

Keith R661

--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> wrote:

From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 12:08 PM

Not sure if anyone on the list is still in the wing build stage on their
Rebel... but if you are......I've been "inside" 7 wings since late
September
and every friggin one of them has the AN3 bolts "shouldered". These are
the
bolts that attach the 1/4" thick spar caps to the main spar. One wing,
out
of a pair, that I was in.. even had the spar backer bolted in this way
the
FULL length of the wing !!.. not just the three bays around the attach
strut.

The overlength bolt/threads showing is an oversight on MAM's part in the
manual and in their AN960-10 washer supply... but every one of these
bolts
needs an extra washer fellas so go buy a couple hundred now for $20. When
you can see 3+ threads showing on an AN3 bolt the nut is shouldered onto
the
grip of the bolt and it's not really tight..and possible that it's been
cracked from running out of thread.

The really sad part.. only two of these wings that I've inspected/worked
on
are USA built that can have an "excuse" with no preclose inspections
south
of our border.. but the Canadian ones.. should have been snagged before
they
got closed up this way!

That is all...

;O)
Wayne

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:49 pm**

Nothing structurally wrong with 3 washers under the nut but yes it is
extra weight and 43.13 recommends the shorter bolt and it does
look more professional. I don't doubt that some inspectors would frown
on 3 washers even though it is a non issue IMO. Also probably better to
leave extra washers than to remove them in the pro-sealed area.

With AN3 bolts and 32 threads per inch, two threads is 1/16" which is
the thickness of one standard washer. One thread is the thickness of one
L (light) washer.

I used different length bolts than specified in many places but when I
built I tried a shorter bolts on the spar caps and decided I was better
off to use the supplied bolt and two washers. For the bolts and fiber
washers that I have, it takes substantially more than 3 threads showing
before the nuts shoulder on the bolt. Nevertheless in accordance with
good practice I always slip on at least an extra thin washer if I have
more than 3 threads showing.

Ken

Bob Palmer wrote:

Keith,

I think you will find that those should be the next length shorter
bolt with one washer under the nut.

Bob.

Leitch wrote:
Well, maybe I did something right. My wing is not yet closed up and
I just looked...I have 3 washers on the nut end of the bolts with
approx. 1 thread showing. Sorry to say I haven't been able to work
on it for over a year. :(

Keith R661

--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> wrote:

From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> Subject:
[rebel-builders] Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts. To: "Murphy Rebel
Builders List" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com> Date: Wednesday, December
2, 2009, 12:08 PM

Not sure if anyone on the list is still in the wing build stage on
their Rebel... but if you are......I've been "inside" 7 wings since
late September and every friggin one of them has the AN3 bolts
"shouldered". These are the bolts that attach the 1/4" thick spar
caps to the main spar. One wing, out of a pair, that I was in..
even had the spar backer bolted in this way the FULL length of the
wing !!.. not just the three bays around the attach strut.

The overlength bolt/threads showing is an oversight on MAM's part
in the manual and in their AN960-10 washer supply... but every one
of these bolts needs an extra washer fellas so go buy a couple
hundred now for $20. When you can see 3+ threads showing on an AN3
bolt the nut is shouldered onto the grip of the bolt and it's not
really tight..and possible that it's been cracked from running out
of thread.

The really sad part.. only two of these wings that I've
inspected/worked on are USA built that can have an "excuse" with no
preclose inspections south of our border.. but the Canadian ones..
should have been snagged before they got closed up this way!

That is all...

;O) Wayne

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:49 pm**

I always thought that in a perfect world it would be one washer under the
head and one under the nut with an aditional one under the nut if needed.
Is two under the nut preferable?

At 05:18 PM 02/12/2009 -0500, you wrote:

Nothing structurally wrong with 3 washers under the nut but yes it is
extra weight and 43.13 recommends the shorter bolt and it does
look more professional. I don't doubt that some inspectors would frown
on 3 washers even though it is a non issue IMO. Also probably better to
leave extra washers than to remove them in the pro-sealed area.

With AN3 bolts and 32 threads per inch, two threads is 1/16" which is
the thickness of one standard washer. One thread is the thickness of one
L (light) washer.

I used different length bolts than specified in many places but when I
built I tried a shorter bolts on the spar caps and decided I was better
off to use the supplied bolt and two washers. For the bolts and fiber
washers that I have, it takes substantially more than 3 threads showing
before the nuts shoulder on the bolt. Nevertheless in accordance with
good practice I always slip on at least an extra thin washer if I have
more than 3 threads showing.

Ken

Bob Palmer wrote:
Keith,

I think you will find that those should be the next length shorter
bolt with one washer under the nut.

Bob.

Leitch wrote:
Well, maybe I did something right. My wing is not yet closed up and
I just looked...I have 3 washers on the nut end of the bolts with
approx. 1 thread showing. Sorry to say I haven't been able to work
on it for over a year. :(

Keith R661

--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> wrote:

From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> Subject:
[rebel-builders] Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts. To: "Murphy Rebel
Builders List" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com> Date: Wednesday, December
2, 2009, 12:08 PM

Not sure if anyone on the list is still in the wing build stage on
their Rebel... but if you are......I've been "inside" 7 wings since
late September and every friggin one of them has the AN3 bolts
"shouldered". These are the bolts that attach the 1/4" thick spar
caps to the main spar. One wing, out of a pair, that I was in..
even had the spar backer bolted in this way the FULL length of the
wing !!.. not just the three bays around the attach strut.

The overlength bolt/threads showing is an oversight on MAM's part
in the manual and in their AN960-10 washer supply... but every one
of these bolts needs an extra washer fellas so go buy a couple
hundred now for $20. When you can see 3+ threads showing on an AN3
bolt the nut is shouldered onto the grip of the bolt and it's not
really tight..and possible that it's been cracked from running out
of thread.

The really sad part.. only two of these wings that I've
inspected/worked on are USA built that can have an "excuse" with no
preclose inspections south of our border.. but the Canadian ones..
should have been snagged before they got closed up this way!

That is all...

;O) Wayne

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Drew

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:49 pm**

My understanding is that there is normally no washer under the head as
long as the nut is turned to tighten the assembly. There should be a
washer under the head if the head will be turned to tighten the
assembly. Nothing wrong with a washer under the head as long as the
smooth shank fully protrudes through all of the assembly that is in
shear as has been mentioned. Biggest problem I've seen with that is the
retractable gear on the amphibs where several specified bolts are too
short IMO. That will cause premature wear on the moving aluminum parts.

What gets interesting is that the way we normally install AN bolts is
for shear applications but this is wrong from a fatigue point of view as
it greatly accentuates the stress concentration at the root thread when
things flex. For max fatigue resistance we should have several threads
not engaged by the nut so that strains are not all absorbed by only one
thread minor diameter. High performance racing applications understand
this if they are good at what they do. The only way to achieve this with
AN bolts and not compromise the shear situation is to use a longer bolt
and put several extra washers under the nut. Fortunately we don't have
many airframe situations where bolt fatigue is an issue but
fundamentally I will argue that a bolt that is on the long side with
extra washers under the nut is not at all a bad thing.

Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

I always thought that in a perfect world it would be one washer under the
head and one under the nut with an aditional one under the nut if needed.
Is two under the nut preferable?

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:54 pm**

Please remove my email address from this communication. Thx

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
Byers
Sent: December-02-09 11:12 AM
To: rebel builders
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.

Thanks for the info, I am still in the wing build stage and will double
check them.

Andrew R779

From: oifa@irishfield.on.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:08:08 -0500

Not sure if anyone on the list is still in the wing build stage on their
Rebel... but if you are......I've been "inside" 7 wings since late

September

and every friggin one of them has the AN3 bolts "shouldered". These are

the

bolts that attach the 1/4" thick spar caps to the main spar. One wing, out

of a pair, that I was in.. even had the spar backer bolted in this way the

FULL length of the wing !!.. not just the three bays around the attach
strut.

The overlength bolt/threads showing is an oversight on MAM's part in the
manual and in their AN960-10 washer supply... but every one of these bolts

needs an extra washer fellas so go buy a couple hundred now for $20. When
you can see 3+ threads showing on an AN3 bolt the nut is shouldered onto

the

grip of the bolt and it's not really tight..and possible that it's been
cracked from running out of thread.

The really sad part.. only two of these wings that I've inspected/worked

on

are USA built that can have an "excuse" with no preclose inspections south

of our border.. but the Canadian ones.. should have been snagged before

they

got closed up this way!

That is all...

;O)
Wayne

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:54 pm**

Bruce,

This email list is self-administered. You can UNSUBSCRIBE yourself at any
time using the link provided at the bottom of every message. Or, just sent a
blank email to rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com

Ron
254R

On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 10:12 AM, bruce <vbsimpson@shaw.ca> wrote:

Please remove my email address from this communication. Thx

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:54 pm**

Thanks for your help.

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: January-01-10 10:54 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Cc: vbsimpson@shaw.ca
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.

Bruce,

This email list is self-administered. You can UNSUBSCRIBE yourself at any
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Ron
254R

On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 10:12 AM, bruce <vbsimpson@shaw.ca> wrote:

Please remove my email address from this communication. Thx

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