epoxy

[C/M Beck]

Hello to all...Since MAM has discontinued shipping ProSeal and Polyfiber
Epoxy Zinc Chromate, I'm looking for an epoxy to use. Polyfiber makes no
mention of zinc chromate in their current description of "Epoxy Primer
EP-420. Has the product changed, or am I lookinmg at the wrong product?

Keeping this in mind...I've used Martin Senour Epoxy Primer-Sealer
#5120...it was available from lodal NAPA auto parts store for about
$42/gal. It is gray in color, needs activator #5123, and can be thinned
with lacquer thinner to give a smooth finish as a sealer/fogger, cleaning
the surfaces with #6879 prior to paint. Can be top-coated with urethane,
acryl. enamel...whatever. It is readily available to me locally, so no
Haz-Mat charges...and reasonably priced. I believe Dupont has similar
material available here also.

Would it be a mistake to substitue an automotive/marine epoxy like this for
the Polyfiber Epoxy?

Thanks..Charles Beck


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[Bob Patterson]

Yes !!
======

You can order ALL of the <recommended> Polyfibre products from
Murphy - they just have to be shipped separately !!

In My Humble Opinion, the use of the proper Polyfiber products
is THE <BEST, SAFEST> WAY to build a Rebel - PERIOD !! I know there
are many other alternatives that people are using .... they're just
NOT <MY CHOICE> !

I've been flying since 1957, and have owned quite a few
aircraft, and worked on many more. I owned a glider that someone had
built using spray lacquer "zinc chromate" - after about 10 years outside,
it turned into millions of tiny flakes blowing around inside the wings
and into the cockpit !!! NO corrosion protection - and a toxic
air hazard to the pilot, to boot - NO THANKS !!!

Don't try to re-invent the wheel - just go with the stuff
the designer recommends !! And don't forget to brush it on, and
put the parts together WET, and dip the rivets too !!

Just a (heartfelt) suggestion !!! :-)

....bobp

-----------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 03:29 PM 11/18/00 -0600, you wrote:

Hello to all...Since MAM has discontinued shipping ProSeal and Polyfiber
Epoxy Zinc Chromate, I'm looking for an epoxy to use. Polyfiber makes no
mention of zinc chromate in their current description of "Epoxy Primer
EP-420. Has the product changed, or am I lookinmg at the wrong product?

Keeping this in mind...I've used Martin Senour Epoxy Primer-Sealer
#5120...it was available from lodal NAPA auto parts store for about
$42/gal. It is gray in color, needs activator #5123, and can be thinned
with lacquer thinner to give a smooth finish as a sealer/fogger, cleaning
the surfaces with #6879 prior to paint. Can be top-coated with urethane,
acryl. enamel...whatever. It is readily available to me locally, so no
Haz-Mat charges...and reasonably priced. I believe Dupont has similar
material available here also.

Would it be a mistake to substitue an automotive/marine epoxy like this for
the Polyfiber Epoxy?

Thanks..Charles Beck


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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

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Your following message has been delivered to the 170 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 17:38:04 on 18 Nov 2000.
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DITTO!!!!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
(068R, 105R, 243R, 385R and 386R plus a <few> other projects that have left
the nest, or roust here in the winter!)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: epoxy

In My Humble Opinion, the use of the proper Polyfiber products
is THE <BEST, SAFEST> WAY to build a Rebel - PERIOD !! I know there
are many other alternatives that people are using .... they're just
NOT <MY CHOICE> !

Don't try to re-invent the wheel - just go with the stuff
the designer recommends !! And don't forget to brush it on, and
put the parts together WET, and dip the rivets too !!

Just a (heartfelt) suggestion !!! :-)

....bobp

-----------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 03:29 PM 11/18/00 -0600, you wrote:

Hello to all...Since MAM has discontinued shipping ProSeal and Polyfiber
Epoxy Zinc Chromate, I'm looking for an epoxy to use. Polyfiber makes no
mention of zinc chromate in their current description of "Epoxy Primer
EP-420. Has the product changed, or am I lookinmg at the wrong product?

Keeping this in mind...I've used Martin Senour Epoxy Primer-Sealer
#5120...it was available from lodal NAPA auto parts store for about
$42/gal. It is gray in color, needs activator #5123, and can be thinned
with lacquer thinner to give a smooth finish as a sealer/fogger,

cleaning

the surfaces with #6879 prior to paint. Can be top-coated with urethane,
acryl. enamel...whatever. It is readily available to me locally, so no
Haz-Mat charges...and reasonably priced. I believe Dupont has similar
material available here also.

Would it be a mistake to substitue an automotive/marine epoxy like this

for

the Polyfiber Epoxy?

Thanks..Charles Beck

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[David Ricker]

Charles

We ran into the same sourcing issues on the Polyfibre product and looked at alternatives,
I have attached he text of a reply I made to the list back in April discussing our
decision. For what it is worth a friend of mine building an RV independently came up
with the same answer and was reassured to think he was not alone in his conclusion. I
used the RV list archive as a ref. also.

On whether the Polyfibre contains zinc chromate the answer is no! See my correspondence
below for the particulars.

If you want to look at more of the thread I'll refer you to the archive (dcsol.com ref'd
in the mailing list .sig file) to track down the thread since it is too long to repeat
here. Good luck & let us know how you make out.

Dave R.
Elite 583

--------------------------

Subject:
Re: corrosion protection - Dupont Products
Date:
Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:10:57 -0300
From:
"David A. Ricker" <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
Organization:
.
To:
" (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
References:
1




Terry

On Elite #583 we are using Dupont Corlar filling wash primer. This is available in
chromate bearing (820R) and non-chromate
formulation (810R), we are using the chromate version. When you use the chromate version
they say you do NOT need to apply a
chromic conversion treatment (Alodyne/Iridite). This is a big plus for us since we do
not want the problems associated with disposing
with the hazardous waste from the process. When I looked into it, being above board (and
convincing raw material suppliers to sell you
the material in bulk at a reasonable price) would have required being certified to handle
the material and using approved disposal services
(unless it went down the drain but having a septic system and a well rules that out even
if your concience doesn't). Local service
providers were not capable of providing the irridite service to our satisfaction either.
BTW, Alodyne = Iridite, these are trade names for
chromic conversion treatment chemicals, Alodyne is the name you hear around aircraft &
Iridite is what you hear around elelctronic
chassis/sheet metal fab shops.

Back to Corlar, this material is used in local aircraft refinishing and float
manufacturing facilities. I suppose they have a good handle on
corrosion issues in this area due to the proximity of the salty Atlantic Ocean....... I
first got a lead on using this material by reading the RV
archives. I guess I should also mention that we are building with the possibility of
putting this plane on floats at some point so we wanted
to apply some corrosion protection to all of the internal surfaces and procuring the Poly
F product in that quantity was going to be a royal
pain so we went looking for locally sourced alternatives

As for application, the Murphy instructions say you should assemble the parts wet
implying to "glue" the parts together (with the Poly F
product), in our case that was not consistent with our basement assembly area (fumes) so
we assemble after the parts dry with the
exception of dipping the rivets. I call on two reasons for believing this is adequate,
first I cannot believe Murphy would design the
structure so close to the edge that the "adhesive" properties of the paint would make a
pass/fail difference on the strength of the structure
and the fact that I spoke to a tech person at Cessna who told me that they assemble their
aircraft "dry" after all the piece parts are
alodyne/iridite treated and painted.

We contacted the Dupont Tech center (Ontario?) to get advice on this. It is recommended
to follow the Corlar with a high solids
urethane primer 1020R (Ochre) or 1044R (Gray), and a Dupont topcoat like Imron. They
also said we should be able to get good
advice from their re-sellers like UAP but we felt speaking to "the horses mouth" would
provide the best information. We got the requisite
data sheets (including application instructions and MSDSs from the local UAP.

These Dupont products are available at your local UAP auto body supply jobber - off the
shelf, no HAZMAT shipping issues.

Dupont is clear on their direction to use a paint "system" from ONE manufacturer to avoid
incompatibility.

Application of all these products must done with a fresh air supply to the painter since
these days just about every paint you will
encounter will have very nasty chemicals like isocyanates (or chromate in typical zinc
chromate) in them. Normal charcoal etc. masks are
NOT adequate for these paints. Your fresh air system does not need to be expensive, ours
is just a shop vac located in a room
outside the painting area to supply air to the painter and an old furnace blower which
exhausts the paint fumes and maintains the shop at a
pressure lower than ambient. This ensures that fumes won't enter the house attached to
the workshop (that is a description of
priorities isn't it!). You will need a hood/visor to pump the air into, we made one from
a Canadian Tire clear visor and some fabric or you
can spend more $ for an official version.

As we did, you should look at the alternatives and satisfy yourself that the decisions
you make are best for your situation. Our choices
were made based on our needs and imposed restrictions and hopefully we have made good
ones!

Hope all this is useful,

Dave R.

McClary, Terry (GEAE) wrote:

Dave R.,

Care to share where you got your recommendations on which DuPont products to
use? Did you use a web site, local dealer, or user recommendations to determine
which is the best product for the application and how to apply.

I've bought a quart of the Poly Fiber primer and the associated pre-prime
chemicals. I also talked to the distributors at Sun N Fun about pre-prime
cleaning and primer application. The Poly Fiber factory was very helpful and
fast about providing MSDS sheets and answering questions by telephone, but, I
didn't ask for any of the details you did.

I know a couple of the fellows in my EAA chapter have talked about using DuPont
products on their projects. I decided to stay with the Murphy recommendation
but I haven't started priming. If DuPont supports their products better, maybe
I'll switch before I get started.

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: David A. Ricker [mailto:ricker@dbis.ns.ca]
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 9:44 AM
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
Subject: Re: corrosion protection

Ken, Bob

It looks like something changed (before we got our kit, about March '97). Our
package
says nothing about chromate and a quick call to Poly F confirms that there is no
chromate
in the product. The guy I talked to said they had put in some "miracle"
additive called
"hibosil" or" hiboseal". When pressed on how this worked (as in, does it form a
sacrificial anode like zinc chromate or does it simply improve adhesion) the guy
wouldn't
discuss it. Trade secret. For me that just confirms our decision to deal with
Dupont
who are willing to discuss their products and not give you the PR face.

FWIW, we are using a Dupont etching wash primer recommended for aluminum
(Corlar) which
has the option of chromate or not and is availible at your local auto parts
jobber (no
HAZMAT shipping issues). For the chromate version they specifically say
alodine/irridite
chromic conversion treatments are NOT required.

Hope this helps put more info in the hands of those that can use it.

Dave R.

klehman@albedo.net wrote:

Dave

FWIW my old can says "EP-420 Epoxy Chromate Primer". My brand new can says
simply "EP-420 Epoxy Primer". Sounds like something changed.

Ken

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--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca

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The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
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--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca



------------------------------------------

C/M Beck wrote:

Hello to all...Since MAM has discontinued shipping ProSeal and Polyfiber
Epoxy Zinc Chromate, I'm looking for an epoxy to use. Polyfiber makes no
mention of zinc chromate in their current description of "Epoxy Primer
EP-420. Has the product changed, or am I lookinmg at the wrong product?

Keeping this in mind...I've used Martin Senour Epoxy Primer-Sealer
#5120...it was available from lodal NAPA auto parts store for about
$42/gal. It is gray in color, needs activator #5123, and can be thinned
with lacquer thinner to give a smooth finish as a sealer/fogger, cleaning
the surfaces with #6879 prior to paint. Can be top-coated with urethane,
acryl. enamel...whatever. It is readily available to me locally, so no
Haz-Mat charges...and reasonably priced. I believe Dupont has similar
material available here also.

Would it be a mistake to substitue an automotive/marine epoxy like this for
the Polyfiber Epoxy?

Thanks..Charles Beck

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[C/M Beck]

Hello Dave....I called Polyfiber...and you are correct that their epoxy
primer has no zinc chromate content. As you said in the earlier thread,
Polyfiber EP-420 epoxy does have another anti-corrosion ingredient...that
they claim works better than the old zinc chromate.

I have used Martin Senour's epoxy primer 5120 on another project...it costs
about $18/qt. for the base @ NAPA stores. Polytfiber's epoxy is $36/qt. of
base from Wick's. I did find out I can have up to 5 individual qts. of
haz. material per package shipped via ground UPS...and not pay any haz mat
shipping charge.

I may use the Polyfiber epoxy on metal to metal joints and rivets...MAM
says that about a quart will do the job. This seems low...how much have
other builders used on a Rebel airframe without painting exposed metal?

Thanks, Charles Beck


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[Bob Patterson]

Charles,

One of our Rebel builders used a total of 2 quarts, and he
not only put all the joints together wet and dipped rivets, but he
also thinned it and sprayed ALL of the interior surfaces !!

It's good stuff !! And still available from Murphy at very
competitive prices !

.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 04:38 PM 11/21/00 -0600, you wrote:

Hello Dave....I called Polyfiber...and you are correct that their epoxy
primer has no zinc chromate content. As you said in the earlier thread,
Polyfiber EP-420 epoxy does have another anti-corrosion ingredient...that
they claim works better than the old zinc chromate.

I have used Martin Senour's epoxy primer 5120 on another project...it costs
about $18/qt. for the base @ NAPA stores. Polytfiber's epoxy is $36/qt. of
base from Wick's. I did find out I can have up to 5 individual qts. of
haz. material per package shipped via ground UPS...and not pay any haz mat
shipping charge.

I may use the Polyfiber epoxy on metal to metal joints and rivets...MAM
says that about a quart will do the job. This seems low...how much have
other builders used on a Rebel airframe without painting exposed metal?

Thanks, Charles Beck


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[Mike Betti]

I just received some epoxy to construct an Elite kit, ep420/430. I
didn't know about the reducer when I ordered, the can says reduce with
e500 for spraying. My question is when using this product with a brush
do you still need to thin it and if so, is it important to use this
reducer or can I buy something automotive related at an auto supply?
Thanks,
Mike



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

No thinner required for mixing 2 to 1 for brush use between all the mating
panels/bulkheads. It will spread a little nicer if you do have some though
even adding about a 1/4 of it to the 2 to 1 ratio (ie 2tsp epoxy, 1 tsp
catalyst, 1/4 tsp thinner) and you definitely need it if you want to spray
it though. If you over thin it for brushing it won't cover the rivets
properly when you dip them before insertion ...as it runs off too quickly.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:11 PM
Subject: Epoxy

I just received some epoxy to construct an Elite kit, ep420/430. I
didn't know about the reducer when I ordered, the can says reduce with
e500 for spraying. My question is when using this product with a brush
do you still need to thin it and if so, is it important to use this
reducer or can I buy something automotive related at an auto supply?
Thanks,
Mike



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[Mike Davis]

If you're not going to spray, you can save yourself about $10 by ordering
just the ep420/430 separately without the reducer instead of ordering the
quart kit.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:11 PM
Subject: Epoxy

I just received some epoxy to construct an Elite kit, ep420/430. I
didn't know about the reducer when I ordered, the can says reduce with
e500 for spraying. My question is when using this product with a brush
do you still need to thin it and if so, is it important to use this
reducer or can I buy something automotive related at an auto supply?
Thanks,
Mike

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[Jesse Jenks]

I have been using acetone to thin for brushing out on flat surfaces inside
my tail. It seems to work great and dries very hard. Is there any problem
with using acetone?
Thanks
Jesse

From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Epoxy
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:19:19 -0900

If you're not going to spray, you can save yourself about $10 by ordering
just the ep420/430 separately without the reducer instead of ordering the
quart kit.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:11 PM
Subject: Epoxy

I just received some epoxy to construct an Elite kit, ep420/430. I
didn't know about the reducer when I ordered, the can says reduce with
e500 for spraying. My question is when using this product with a brush
do you still need to thin it and if so, is it important to use this
reducer or can I buy something automotive related at an auto supply?
Thanks,
Mike

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