The Murphy Builders Site

Hi Joel !

No - it's both top & bottom of the channel bends, to make
it more rigid. It really stiffens up the panel and stops the flex
that will give throttle variations taxiing ... The channel is
rivetted to the bottom of the original panel, which also has
the gaps bridged.

There is one pic in the Files - it's in 207 - Rebel - panels,
and is called RebPanel-P.jpeg.

   I have more panel pics - somewhere !!  Will post others
IF I find them. All basically the same, with a bent up channel
rivetted solidly to door posts.  There are some with just 1/8"
angle, 1 1/2" or 2"  wide, instead of channel ...

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 09 October 2009 22:14, Joel Jacobs wrote:

Hi Bob,
I've seen this dash mod mentioned a few times but never seen a
picture. You are talking about just the bottom bends right? Since
the top ones are already covered...

Joel

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:24 PM, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:

- the cuts at the bends are bridged with plate & rivetted.

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Ok Bob, I see what you are talking about. If I were not planning on
adding a channel or angle at the bottom of the dash I should still
bridge the gaps at the bottom of the original dash though, right? And
I should not have to bridge the ones at the top since they are already
covered by the glare shield.
I was planning to add a small piece about 8-10" wide for the
controls under the dash in the middle and tie it back to the existing
brace point. I wasn't planing to wrap it clear around the dash to the
door posts. I'm just not going to have that much "stuff" in the panel
to need the extra real estate.

Joel

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:24 PM, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:
[quote]
Hi Joel !

Hi Joel !

The gaps at the top should be bridged inside, as the glare shield
is only .020 or .025 - too thin to do much. You can see pics in the
Files of cracks in the glare shield ...

The instrument panel IS structural - it helps tie the cage sides
together, stopping twisting & distortion. that's why it shouldn't
have large holes in it without backing stiffeners.

It's your choice, but I would certainly put a channel ALL THE
WAY across and rivet it (3+) to the verticals. The extra stiffness
IS important, as well as the extra 'real estate'.

I've flown many Rebels without the channel or angles - there
is sufficient flex in the panel that, taxiing with the throttle pulled
full closed, the engine will still surge over bumps & rolls in the
pavement or grass - proof to me that the structure moves !
This becomes more important on floats ....

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 10 October 2009 14:44, Joel Jacobs wrote:
[quote]Ok Bob, I see what you are talking about. If I were not planning on
adding a channel or angle at the bottom of the dash I should still
bridge the gaps at the bottom of the original dash though, right? And
I should not have to bridge the ones at the top since they are already
covered by the glare shield.
I was planning to add a small piece about 8-10" wide for the
controls under the dash in the middle and tie it back to the existing
brace point. I wasn't planing to wrap it clear around the dash to the
door posts. I'm just not going to have that much "stuff" in the panel
to need the extra real estate.

Joel

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:24 PM, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:
[quote]Hi Joel !

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Joel !

The gaps at the top should be bridged inside, as the glare shield
is only .020 or .025 - too thin to do much. You can see pics in the
Files of cracks in the glare shield ...

The instrument panel IS structural - it helps tie the cage sides
together, stopping twisting & distortion. that's why it shouldn't
have large holes in it without backing stiffeners.

It's your choice, but I would certainly put a channel ALL THE
WAY across and rivet it (3+) to the verticals. The extra stiffness
IS important, as well as the extra 'real estate'.

I've flown many Rebels without the channel or angles - there
is sufficient flex in the panel that, taxiing with the throttle pulled
full closed, the engine will still surge over bumps & rolls in the
pavement or grass - proof to me that the structure moves !
This becomes more important on floats ....

G'Day Bob,

How deep can the channel be before it interferes with the control sticks?

John, Rebel 804 downunder





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Hi John !

Oh, a foot or so .... ;-) Never been a problem !

They are usually 1 1/2" to 3", though ...

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.PattersonAeroSales.com

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 10 October 2009 21:11, gleeso1 wrote:

G'Day Bob,

How deep can the channel be before it interferes with the control
sticks?

John, Rebel 804 downunder

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Joel !

The gaps at the top should be bridged inside, as the glare shield
is only .020 or .025 - too thin to do much. You can see pics in the
Files of cracks in the glare shield ...

The instrument panel IS structural - it helps tie the cage sides
together, stopping twisting & distortion. that's why it shouldn't
have large holes in it without backing stiffeners.

It's your choice, but I would certainly put a channel ALL THE
WAY across and rivet it (3+) to the verticals. The extra stiffness
IS important, as well as the extra 'real estate'.

I've flown many Rebels without the channel or angles - there
is sufficient flex in the panel that, taxiing with the throttle pulled
full closed, the engine will still surge over bumps & rolls in the
pavement or grass - proof to me that the structure moves !
This becomes more important on floats ....

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I have been reading these ominous emails on 'panel mod' and
I have one question. I cut out several large holes in my panel
and I installed a L channel along the bottom of the main portion
of the panel but did not bend it at the corners and tie them back
into the frame. However, I do not seem to notice any flexing of
the panel (yet). So how long before cracks develop?


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 1:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Joel !

The gaps at the top should be bridged inside, as the glare shield
is only .020 or .025 - too thin to do much. You can see pics in the
Files of cracks in the glare shield ...

The instrument panel IS structural - it helps tie the cage sides
together, stopping twisting & distortion. that's why it shouldn't
have large holes in it without backing stiffeners.

It's your choice, but I would certainly put a channel ALL THE
WAY across and rivet it (3+) to the verticals. The extra stiffness
IS important, as well as the extra 'real estate'.

I've flown many Rebels without the channel or angles - there
is sufficient flex in the panel that, taxiing with the throttle pulled
full closed, the engine will still surge over bumps & rolls in the
pavement or grass - proof to me that the structure moves !
This becomes more important on floats ....

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 10 October 2009 14:44, Joel Jacobs wrote:
[quote]Ok Bob, I see what you are talking about. If I were not planning on
adding a channel or angle at the bottom of the dash I should still
bridge the gaps at the bottom of the original dash though, right? And
I should not have to bridge the ones at the top since they are already
covered by the glare shield.
I was planning to add a small piece about 8-10" wide for the
controls under the dash in the middle and tie it back to the existing
brace point. I wasn't planing to wrap it clear around the dash to the
door posts. I'm just not going to have that much "stuff" in the panel
to need the extra real estate.

Joel

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:24 PM, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:
[quote]Hi Joel !

Hi Gary !

The large holes are ok - IF they had stiffeners around them,
extending out .... Many guys use floating panels for the instruments,
although they are usually just done with oversize round holes,
rather than huge rectangles. Cracks are not that common these days...
as most have the bottom channel. I think Ray had 200 or 300 hours...

Cracks are one issue - there is also the throttle surging,
which you will see as soon as you taxi over rolling ground,
holding the throttle closed. It will still try to jump ahead...

What all that means is that the front cage structure is
flexing & twisting .... not good, long term ... Several
builders on floats have also added 'V' braces to the wing roots,
for the same reason. The bottom channel really helps with
panel space, as, with 2 rows of full-sized instruments, there's
no room left for throttle, mixture, carb heat, trim switch, etc...

Maybe some more builders could post pics of their panels
to FILES. ???

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.PattersonAeroSales.com

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 11 October 2009 20:44, Gary Gustafson wrote:

I have been reading these ominous emails on 'panel mod' and
I have one question. I cut out several large holes in my panel
and I installed a L channel along the bottom of the main portion
of the panel but did not bend it at the corners and tie them back
into the frame. However, I do not seem to notice any flexing of
the panel (yet). So how long before cracks develop?


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 1:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Joel !

The gaps at the top should be bridged inside, as the glare shield
is only .020 or .025 - too thin to do much. You can see pics in the
Files of cracks in the glare shield ...

The instrument panel IS structural - it helps tie the cage sides
together, stopping twisting & distortion. that's why it shouldn't
have large holes in it without backing stiffeners.

It's your choice, but I would certainly put a channel ALL THE
WAY across and rivet it (3+) to the verticals. The extra stiffness
IS important, as well as the extra 'real estate'.

I've flown many Rebels without the channel or angles - there
is sufficient flex in the panel that, taxiing with the throttle pulled
full closed, the engine will still surge over bumps & rolls in the
pavement or grass - proof to me that the structure moves !
This becomes more important on floats ....

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-----------------------------------------------------------------

What I did was 1) cut out three large holes, one in each side portion
of the panel (the whole area except for a 1" border and in the
main panel, one large hole (with a 1" border on top and bottom) just left of
center. For each of these wholes I made a 6061T6 plate 0.050"
thick that covered the section in question and each are mounted with 8 nut
plates to the panel. Seems to be pretty rigid, but do not know how much
force each experiences. The design was so that I could easily remove the 8
screws and pull that entire panel section forward and get at any wires that
may need fixing.

I also cut a center portion of the glare shield, installed a hinge and many
nut (5 across the front and 4 on each side) plates along with extra
reinforcement on each side and stiffener panels on the raise able portion of
the glare shield so that I could unscrew and raise the glare shield to get
at wiring behind the center and right portions of the main panel. All nut
plates are about 2" to 3" apart on the glare shield panel. My fear is that
I may have compromised the integrity of the panel, even though I tried to
strengthen areas that I thought might require stiffening.

You will note that I have been a freek about ease of accessibility behind
the panel. I can get at everything behind the panel and have room for
future growth.

I know the above may sound confusing so I have posted 3 pictures on the
Rebel Panel section of the builders site.

I will taxi the plane tomorrow to see if I note any power surges.

I appreciate your comments, Bob



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Gary !

The large holes are ok - IF they had stiffeners around them,
extending out .... Many guys use floating panels for the instruments,
although they are usually just done with oversize round holes,
rather than huge rectangles. Cracks are not that common these days...
as most have the bottom channel. I think Ray had 200 or 300 hours...

Cracks are one issue - there is also the throttle surging,
which you will see as soon as you taxi over rolling ground,
holding the throttle closed. It will still try to jump ahead...

What all that means is that the front cage structure is
flexing & twisting .... not good, long term ... Several
builders on floats have also added 'V' braces to the wing roots,
for the same reason. The bottom channel really helps with
panel space, as, with 2 rows of full-sized instruments, there's
no room left for throttle, mixture, carb heat, trim switch, etc...

Maybe some more builders could post pics of their panels
to FILES. ???

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.PattersonAeroSales.com

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 11 October 2009 20:44, Gary Gustafson wrote:

I have been reading these ominous emails on 'panel mod' and
I have one question. I cut out several large holes in my panel
and I installed a L channel along the bottom of the main portion
of the panel but did not bend it at the corners and tie them back
into the frame. However, I do not seem to notice any flexing of
the panel (yet). So how long before cracks develop?


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 1:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Joel !

The gaps at the top should be bridged inside, as the glare shield
is only .020 or .025 - too thin to do much. You can see pics in the
Files of cracks in the glare shield ...

The instrument panel IS structural - it helps tie the cage sides
together, stopping twisting & distortion. that's why it shouldn't
have large holes in it without backing stiffeners.

It's your choice, but I would certainly put a channel ALL THE
WAY across and rivet it (3+) to the verticals. The extra stiffness
IS important, as well as the extra 'real estate'.

I've flown many Rebels without the channel or angles - there
is sufficient flex in the panel that, taxiing with the throttle pulled
full closed, the engine will still surge over bumps & rolls in the
pavement or grass - proof to me that the structure moves !
This becomes more important on floats ....

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Gary
IMO the big holes in the instrument panel are not likely a problem. I
have larger with no reinforcing. However I do think it is important to
maintain the integrity of the load path along the square tubes to the
firewall and also through the glareshield. That keeps the firewall from
moving sideways which is hard on the windshield among other things.
Hopefully you also have a doubler around all the corners of the hole you
cut in the glareshield (where cracks may want to start). With an 0.020
glareshield it may be difficult to achieve original strength with
anything other than lots of bolts spaced fairly close like as if you
were riveting on a patch. If you see any fretting or gray streaks around
those screws it will be a hint that things are moving and that more
screws would be a good idea and perhaps eliminating the hinge.
Ken

Gary Gustafson wrote:

What I did was 1) cut out three large holes, one in each side portion
of the panel (the whole area except for a 1" border and in the
main panel, one large hole (with a 1" border on top and bottom) just left of
center. For each of these wholes I made a 6061T6 plate 0.050"
thick that covered the section in question and each are mounted with 8 nut
plates to the panel. Seems to be pretty rigid, but do not know how much
force each experiences. The design was so that I could easily remove the 8
screws and pull that entire panel section forward and get at any wires that
may need fixing.

I also cut a center portion of the glare shield, installed a hinge and many
nut (5 across the front and 4 on each side) plates along with extra
reinforcement on each side and stiffener panels on the raise able portion of
the glare shield so that I could unscrew and raise the glare shield to get
at wiring behind the center and right portions of the main panel. All nut
plates are about 2" to 3" apart on the glare shield panel. My fear is that
I may have compromised the integrity of the panel, even though I tried to
strengthen areas that I thought might require stiffening.

You will note that I have been a freek about ease of accessibility behind
the panel. I can get at everything behind the panel and have room for
future growth.

I know the above may sound confusing so I have posted 3 pictures on the
Rebel Panel section of the builders site.

I will taxi the plane tomorrow to see if I note any power surges.

I appreciate your comments, Bob



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Gary !

The large holes are ok - IF they had stiffeners around them,
extending out .... Many guys use floating panels for the instruments,
although they are usually just done with oversize round holes,
rather than huge rectangles. Cracks are not that common these days...
as most have the bottom channel. I think Ray had 200 or 300 hours...

Cracks are one issue - there is also the throttle surging,
which you will see as soon as you taxi over rolling ground,
holding the throttle closed. It will still try to jump ahead...

What all that means is that the front cage structure is
flexing & twisting .... not good, long term ... Several
builders on floats have also added 'V' braces to the wing roots,
for the same reason. The bottom channel really helps with
panel space, as, with 2 rows of full-sized instruments, there's
no room left for throttle, mixture, carb heat, trim switch, etc...

Maybe some more builders could post pics of their panels
to FILES. ???

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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username "rebel" password "builder"
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-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Gary !

Looking at your pics, I think you achieved what you wanted -
accessibility without hurting the strength. It looks like you do have
doublers all around the edge of the opening section, and the
2 angles will definitely stiffen it. The large holes in the panel
are not likely to be problems, as you used .050, and lots of bolts.

As you can see from Ray's pics, the cracks usually show up at the
top of the angles at the sides of the panel. This is caused by twisting
of the firewall/glare shield/ cage structure. Using a heavier glare shield
would help stiffen this up a lot, and yours should be slightly stiffer, with
all the extra doublers you added. Hope the support tubes are all
there, with extra doublers at the ends too ... maybe an extra tube ...

You won't likely notice the flexing & surging on pavement
or smooth grass - it only shows up on rolling turf. It's not particularly
dangerous, just disconcerting, once you are aware of it...
I lived with it for over 10 years, with no big problems. (I was
prepared to switch off if it did become a problem ...) Could be
a bit more of a concern if trying to dock in larger waves, though...

Some builders have added an angle along the bottom of the panel,
behind the original, just for stiffness.... works too...

Good luck with the taxi tests. Hope to see those first flight
pictures soon !! :-)

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 11 October 2009 22:58, Gary Gustafson wrote:

What I did was 1) cut out three large holes, one in each side portion
of the panel (the whole area except for a 1" border and in the
main panel, one large hole (with a 1" border on top and bottom) just left
of center. For each of these wholes I made a 6061T6 plate 0.050"
thick that covered the section in question and each are mounted with 8 nut
plates to the panel. Seems to be pretty rigid, but do not know how much
force each experiences. The design was so that I could easily remove the 8
screws and pull that entire panel section forward and get at any wires
that may need fixing.

I also cut a center portion of the glare shield, installed a hinge and
many nut (5 across the front and 4 on each side) plates along with extra
reinforcement on each side and stiffener panels on the raise able portion
of the glare shield so that I could unscrew and raise the glare shield to
get at wiring behind the center and right portions of the main panel. All
nut plates are about 2" to 3" apart on the glare shield panel. My fear is
that I may have compromised the integrity of the panel, even though I
tried to strengthen areas that I thought might require stiffening.

You will note that I have been a freek about ease of accessibility behind
the panel. I can get at everything behind the panel and have room for
future growth.

I know the above may sound confusing so I have posted 3 pictures on the
Rebel Panel section of the builders site.

I will taxi the plane tomorrow to see if I note any power surges.

I appreciate your comments, Bob



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Gary !

The large holes are ok - IF they had stiffeners around them,
extending out .... Many guys use floating panels for the instruments,
although they are usually just done with oversize round holes,
rather than huge rectangles. Cracks are not that common these days...
as most have the bottom channel. I think Ray had 200 or 300 hours...

Cracks are one issue - there is also the throttle surging,
which you will see as soon as you taxi over rolling ground,
holding the throttle closed. It will still try to jump ahead...

What all that means is that the front cage structure is
flexing & twisting .... not good, long term ... Several
builders on floats have also added 'V' braces to the wing roots,
for the same reason. The bottom channel really helps with
panel space, as, with 2 rows of full-sized instruments, there's
no room left for throttle, mixture, carb heat, trim switch, etc...

Maybe some more builders could post pics of their panels
to FILES. ???

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings,

I have another somewhat related question. Has anyone installed v-tube
bracing behind the windshield? ... fwd wing attach points down to firewall
top center behind windshield.

Cheers, Bob 612e



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:52 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Gary !

Looking at your pics, I think you achieved what you wanted -
accessibility without hurting the strength. It looks like you do have
doublers all around the edge of the opening section, and the
2 angles will definitely stiffen it. The large holes in the panel
are not likely to be problems, as you used .050, and lots of bolts.

As you can see from Ray's pics, the cracks usually show up at the
top of the angles at the sides of the panel. This is caused by twisting
of the firewall/glare shield/ cage structure. Using a heavier glare shield
would help stiffen this up a lot, and yours should be slightly stiffer, with
all the extra doublers you added. Hope the support tubes are all
there, with extra doublers at the ends too ... maybe an extra tube ...

You won't likely notice the flexing & surging on pavement
or smooth grass - it only shows up on rolling turf. It's not particularly
dangerous, just disconcerting, once you are aware of it...
I lived with it for over 10 years, with no big problems. (I was
prepared to switch off if it did become a problem ...) Could be
a bit more of a concern if trying to dock in larger waves, though...

Some builders have added an angle along the bottom of the panel,
behind the original, just for stiffness.... works too...

Good luck with the taxi tests. Hope to see those first flight
pictures soon !! :-)

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 11 October 2009 22:58, Gary Gustafson wrote:

What I did was 1) cut out three large holes, one in each side portion
of the panel (the whole area except for a 1" border and in the
main panel, one large hole (with a 1" border on top and bottom) just left
of center. For each of these wholes I made a 6061T6 plate 0.050"
thick that covered the section in question and each are mounted with 8 nut
plates to the panel. Seems to be pretty rigid, but do not know how much
force each experiences. The design was so that I could easily remove the 8
screws and pull that entire panel section forward and get at any wires
that may need fixing.

I also cut a center portion of the glare shield, installed a hinge and
many nut (5 across the front and 4 on each side) plates along with extra
reinforcement on each side and stiffener panels on the raise able portion
of the glare shield so that I could unscrew and raise the glare shield to
get at wiring behind the center and right portions of the main panel. All
nut plates are about 2" to 3" apart on the glare shield panel. My fear is
that I may have compromised the integrity of the panel, even though I
tried to strengthen areas that I thought might require stiffening.

You will note that I have been a freek about ease of accessibility behind
the panel. I can get at everything behind the panel and have room for
future growth.

I know the above may sound confusing so I have posted 3 pictures on the
Rebel Panel section of the builders site.

I will taxi the plane tomorrow to see if I note any power surges.

I appreciate your comments, Bob



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Gary !

The large holes are ok - IF they had stiffeners around them,
extending out .... Many guys use floating panels for the instruments,
although they are usually just done with oversize round holes,
rather than huge rectangles. Cracks are not that common these days...
as most have the bottom channel. I think Ray had 200 or 300 hours...

Cracks are one issue - there is also the throttle surging,
which you will see as soon as you taxi over rolling ground,
holding the throttle closed. It will still try to jump ahead...

What all that means is that the front cage structure is
flexing & twisting .... not good, long term ... Several
builders on floats have also added 'V' braces to the wing roots,
for the same reason. The bottom channel really helps with
panel space, as, with 2 rows of full-sized instruments, there's
no room left for throttle, mixture, carb heat, trim switch, etc...

Maybe some more builders could post pics of their panels
to FILES. ???

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Bob (612e),

Yes, there are Rebels out there with the V bracing structure within the
windshield. I don't have any pics (that I recall anyways) but simple enough
to produce.

Cheers,
Jeff


On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Bob Andrews <robert@montanasky.us> wrote:

Greetings,

I have another somewhat related question. Has anyone installed v-tube
bracing behind the windshield? ... fwd wing attach points down to firewall
top center behind windshield.

Cheers, Bob 612e



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:52 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Gary !

Looking at your pics, I think you achieved what you wanted -
accessibility without hurting the strength. It looks like you do have
doublers all around the edge of the opening section, and the
2 angles will definitely stiffen it. The large holes in the panel
are not likely to be problems, as you used .050, and lots of bolts.

As you can see from Ray's pics, the cracks usually show up at the
top of the angles at the sides of the panel. This is caused by twisting
of the firewall/glare shield/ cage structure. Using a heavier glare shield
would help stiffen this up a lot, and yours should be slightly stiffer,
with
all the extra doublers you added. Hope the support tubes are all
there, with extra doublers at the ends too ... maybe an extra tube ...

You won't likely notice the flexing & surging on pavement
or smooth grass - it only shows up on rolling turf. It's not particularly
dangerous, just disconcerting, once you are aware of it...
I lived with it for over 10 years, with no big problems. (I was
prepared to switch off if it did become a problem ...) Could be
a bit more of a concern if trying to dock in larger waves, though...

Some builders have added an angle along the bottom of the panel,
behind the original, just for stiffness.... works too...

Good luck with the taxi tests. Hope to see those first flight
pictures soon !! :-)

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 11 October 2009 22:58, Gary Gustafson wrote:

What I did was 1) cut out three large holes, one in each side portion
of the panel (the whole area except for a 1" border and in the
main panel, one large hole (with a 1" border on top and bottom) just left
of center. For each of these wholes I made a 6061T6 plate 0.050"
thick that covered the section in question and each are mounted with 8

nut

plates to the panel. Seems to be pretty rigid, but do not know how much
force each experiences. The design was so that I could easily remove the

8

screws and pull that entire panel section forward and get at any wires
that may need fixing.

I also cut a center portion of the glare shield, installed a hinge and
many nut (5 across the front and 4 on each side) plates along with extra
reinforcement on each side and stiffener panels on the raise able portion
of the glare shield so that I could unscrew and raise the glare shield to
get at wiring behind the center and right portions of the main panel. All
nut plates are about 2" to 3" apart on the glare shield panel. My fear is
that I may have compromised the integrity of the panel, even though I
tried to strengthen areas that I thought might require stiffening.

You will note that I have been a freek about ease of accessibility behind
the panel. I can get at everything behind the panel and have room for
future growth.

I know the above may sound confusing so I have posted 3 pictures on the
Rebel Panel section of the builders site.

I will taxi the plane tomorrow to see if I note any power surges.

I appreciate your comments, Bob



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

Bob

Patterson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Gary !

The large holes are ok - IF they had stiffeners around them,
extending out .... Many guys use floating panels for the instruments,
although they are usually just done with oversize round holes,
rather than huge rectangles. Cracks are not that common these days...
as most have the bottom channel. I think Ray had 200 or 300 hours...

Cracks are one issue - there is also the throttle surging,
which you will see as soon as you taxi over rolling ground,
holding the throttle closed. It will still try to jump ahead...

What all that means is that the front cage structure is
flexing & twisting .... not good, long term ... Several
builders on floats have also added 'V' braces to the wing roots,
for the same reason. The bottom channel really helps with
panel space, as, with 2 rows of full-sized instruments, there's
no room left for throttle, mixture, carb heat, trim switch, etc...

Maybe some more builders could post pics of their panels
to FILES. ???

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i had a piece of 1/8 aluminium angle custom welded to comform with the shape
of the panel. I attached it to the panel and door post and it makes a real
solid installation.

Hank
307R

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Jeff Micheal
<westcoastkitplanes@gmail.com>wrote:

Bob (612e),

Yes, there are Rebels out there with the V bracing structure within the
windshield. I don't have any pics (that I recall anyways) but simple
enough
to produce.

Cheers,
Jeff


On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Bob Andrews <robert@montanasky.us> wrote:

Greetings,

I have another somewhat related question. Has anyone installed v-tube
bracing behind the windshield? ... fwd wing attach points down to

firewall

top center behind windshield.

Cheers, Bob 612e



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

Bob

Patterson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:52 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Gary !

Looking at your pics, I think you achieved what you wanted -
accessibility without hurting the strength. It looks like you do have
doublers all around the edge of the opening section, and the
2 angles will definitely stiffen it. The large holes in the panel
are not likely to be problems, as you used .050, and lots of bolts.

As you can see from Ray's pics, the cracks usually show up at the
top of the angles at the sides of the panel. This is caused by twisting
of the firewall/glare shield/ cage structure. Using a heavier glare

shield

would help stiffen this up a lot, and yours should be slightly stiffer,
with
all the extra doublers you added. Hope the support tubes are all
there, with extra doublers at the ends too ... maybe an extra tube ...

You won't likely notice the flexing & surging on pavement
or smooth grass - it only shows up on rolling turf. It's not

particularly

dangerous, just disconcerting, once you are aware of it...
I lived with it for over 10 years, with no big problems. (I was
prepared to switch off if it did become a problem ...) Could be
a bit more of a concern if trying to dock in larger waves, though...

Some builders have added an angle along the bottom of the panel,
behind the original, just for stiffness.... works too...

Good luck with the taxi tests. Hope to see those first flight
pictures soon !! :-)

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or

persons.

Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 11 October 2009 22:58, Gary Gustafson wrote:

What I did was 1) cut out three large holes, one in each side portion
of the panel (the whole area except for a 1" border and in the
main panel, one large hole (with a 1" border on top and bottom) just

left

of center. For each of these wholes I made a 6061T6 plate 0.050"
thick that covered the section in question and each are mounted with 8

nut

plates to the panel. Seems to be pretty rigid, but do not know how much
force each experiences. The design was so that I could easily remove

the

8

screws and pull that entire panel section forward and get at any wires
that may need fixing.

I also cut a center portion of the glare shield, installed a hinge and
many nut (5 across the front and 4 on each side) plates along with

extra

reinforcement on each side and stiffener panels on the raise able

portion

of the glare shield so that I could unscrew and raise the glare shield

to

get at wiring behind the center and right portions of the main panel.

All

nut plates are about 2" to 3" apart on the glare shield panel. My fear

is

that I may have compromised the integrity of the panel, even though I
tried to strengthen areas that I thought might require stiffening.

You will note that I have been a freek about ease of accessibility

behind

the panel. I can get at everything behind the panel and have room for
future growth.

I know the above may sound confusing so I have posted 3 pictures on the
Rebel Panel section of the builders site.

I will taxi the plane tomorrow to see if I note any power surges.

I appreciate your comments, Bob



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

Bob

Patterson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Gary !

The large holes are ok - IF they had stiffeners around them,
extending out .... Many guys use floating panels for the instruments,
although they are usually just done with oversize round holes,
rather than huge rectangles. Cracks are not that common these days...
as most have the bottom channel. I think Ray had 200 or 300 hours...

Cracks are one issue - there is also the throttle surging,
which you will see as soon as you taxi over rolling ground,
holding the throttle closed. It will still try to jump ahead...

What all that means is that the front cage structure is
flexing & twisting .... not good, long term ... Several
builders on floats have also added 'V' braces to the wing roots,
for the same reason. The bottom channel really helps with
panel space, as, with 2 rows of full-sized instruments, there's
no room left for throttle, mixture, carb heat, trim switch, etc...

Maybe some more builders could post pics of their panels
to FILES. ???

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Thanks for your replies and information. I will pay attention to the
glare shield corners to watch for cracks or signs of cracks. Thanks
for heightening my awareness more.

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 10:52 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Gary !

Looking at your pics, I think you achieved what you wanted -
accessibility without hurting the strength. It looks like you do have
doublers all around the edge of the opening section, and the
2 angles will definitely stiffen it. The large holes in the panel
are not likely to be problems, as you used .050, and lots of bolts.

As you can see from Ray's pics, the cracks usually show up at the
top of the angles at the sides of the panel. This is caused by twisting
of the firewall/glare shield/ cage structure. Using a heavier glare shield
would help stiffen this up a lot, and yours should be slightly stiffer, with
all the extra doublers you added. Hope the support tubes are all
there, with extra doublers at the ends too ... maybe an extra tube ...

You won't likely notice the flexing & surging on pavement
or smooth grass - it only shows up on rolling turf. It's not particularly
dangerous, just disconcerting, once you are aware of it...
I lived with it for over 10 years, with no big problems. (I was
prepared to switch off if it did become a problem ...) Could be
a bit more of a concern if trying to dock in larger waves, though...

Some builders have added an angle along the bottom of the panel,
behind the original, just for stiffness.... works too...

Good luck with the taxi tests. Hope to see those first flight
pictures soon !! :-)

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 11 October 2009 22:58, Gary Gustafson wrote:

What I did was 1) cut out three large holes, one in each side portion
of the panel (the whole area except for a 1" border and in the
main panel, one large hole (with a 1" border on top and bottom) just left
of center. For each of these wholes I made a 6061T6 plate 0.050"
thick that covered the section in question and each are mounted with 8 nut
plates to the panel. Seems to be pretty rigid, but do not know how much
force each experiences. The design was so that I could easily remove the 8
screws and pull that entire panel section forward and get at any wires
that may need fixing.

I also cut a center portion of the glare shield, installed a hinge and
many nut (5 across the front and 4 on each side) plates along with extra
reinforcement on each side and stiffener panels on the raise able portion
of the glare shield so that I could unscrew and raise the glare shield to
get at wiring behind the center and right portions of the main panel. All
nut plates are about 2" to 3" apart on the glare shield panel. My fear is
that I may have compromised the integrity of the panel, even though I
tried to strengthen areas that I thought might require stiffening.

You will note that I have been a freek about ease of accessibility behind
the panel. I can get at everything behind the panel and have room for
future growth.

I know the above may sound confusing so I have posted 3 pictures on the
Rebel Panel section of the builders site.

I will taxi the plane tomorrow to see if I note any power surges.

I appreciate your comments, Bob



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - panel mod.


Hi Gary !

The large holes are ok - IF they had stiffeners around them,
extending out .... Many guys use floating panels for the instruments,
although they are usually just done with oversize round holes,
rather than huge rectangles. Cracks are not that common these days...
as most have the bottom channel. I think Ray had 200 or 300 hours...

Cracks are one issue - there is also the throttle surging,
which you will see as soon as you taxi over rolling ground,
holding the throttle closed. It will still try to jump ahead...

What all that means is that the front cage structure is
flexing & twisting .... not good, long term ... Several
builders on floats have also added 'V' braces to the wing roots,
for the same reason. The bottom channel really helps with
panel space, as, with 2 rows of full-sized instruments, there's
no room left for throttle, mixture, carb heat, trim switch, etc...

Maybe some more builders could post pics of their panels
to FILES. ???

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