[rebel-builders] Rebel Landing speed

Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:33 pm

Hi Keith !

I wouldn't worry too much about the approach speed - good
judgement is much more important ! If you pick the right aiming
spot, you will have no problem landing short.

I could safely fly approaches at 35 -40 mph with full flap in calm
conditions with my old 912 Rebel - but that is not for the faint-hearted,
and NOT recommended ! It is FAR better to approach at 65+ mph,
steeply, full flap, to come safely through any wind gradient, then
flare & land short. The speed bleeds off rapidly with the Rebel,
once the nose is raised. The small extra 'float' gives you time to get
the tail down to the right position.

My old Rebel often did that, and stopped in less than 140 ft. ....
I could cross the end of our ~3,500 ft. runway at 1,000 ft., descend,
and have to add power to touch down at the far end, where my taxiway
was.

Heavier Rebels will need more space - more inertia -, but it is still
very common to land & stop an O-320 Rebel in under 500 ft.. You
shouldn't have any worries about the length of your strip.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 23 September 2009 12:27, Keith Leitch wrote:
[quote]Thanks for the feedback James. If your Rebel is even half as nice as your
dads it will be a nice Rebel.:)

Keith Leitch · Post by **Keith Leitch** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:33 pm

Thanks Bob!

WALTER KLATT · Post by **WALTER KLATT** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:33 pm

How long is your field, Keith? Back when I was on wheels, I used to drop into a 800 foot grass UL field with 2 people, without feeling uncomfortable. The Rebel with full flaps and a little power can land pretty slow on wheels. And that was before I had VGs. Take off was no problem at all with the 320, and was always up in less than half the runway. I even did a 600 foot field with 2 people, but that one you didn't have a lot of room for error, and you had to be ready for a go around.

Amphibs, though, is a whole different story. Minimum for me is a 1500 foot paved runway. It's the landing where you need the room.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Leitch <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:07 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Landing speed
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Thanks Bob! My strip just leaves NO room for error. That is my
biggest concern and the fact that I always seem to fly heavy.
Nothing is very close and I usually carry plenty of fuel for a
round trip excursion, maybe its because I am to cheap to give
the FBO $1+ more per gallon than I pay for fuel. Besides, I
would burn up several gallons just getting to the nearest airport.
I will not even fly my O-235 powered 7AC if the winds are more
than 10MPH. I normally have a crosswind at my strip and it can
get pretty hairy if it is any windier. I am in the process of
trying to extend it a couple hundred feet but dealing with the
wetlands people is NOT easy.

Keith

--- On Wed, 9/23/09, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:

From: Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Landing speed
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 10:33 AM

Hi Keith !

I wouldn't worry too much about the approach speed - good
judgement is much more important ! If you pick the right aiming
spot, you will have no problem landing short.

I could safely fly approaches at 35 -40 mph with full flap
in calm
conditions with my old 912 Rebel - but that is not for the faint-
hearted,
and NOT recommended ! It is FAR better to approach at 65+ mph,
steeply, full flap, to come safely through any wind gradient,
then
flare & land short. The speed bleeds off rapidly with the Rebel,
once the nose is raised. The small extra 'float' gives you time
to get
the tail down to the right position.

My old Rebel often did that, and stopped in less than 140
ft. ....
I could cross the end of our ~3,500 ft. runway at 1,000 ft., descend,
and have to add power to touch down at the far end, where my taxiway
was.

Heavier Rebels will need more space - more inertia -, but it
is still
very common to land & stop an O-320 Rebel in under 500 ft.. You
shouldn't have any worries about the length of your strip.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities
or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is
totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 23 September 2009 12:27, Keith Leitch wrote:
Thanks for the feedback James. If your Rebel is even half as
nice as your
dads it will be a nice Rebel.:) As you have probably guessed,
the main
reason for my question was because of my short strip with obstacles.
Everything I had read prior to this was kudos for the Rebels
in short
strips. As for tires, I have a set of 26" GY's here that I had
on my Champ
prior to installing some AkBushwheels. They are their 26"
Airsteaks and I
eventually plan to install them on the Rebel. They are much
lighter than
the GY's. Do you think the shaking you are getting may be from
imbalance?> You guys are welcome to stop in at any time.
Thanks,
Keith

--- On Tue, 9/22/09, james.smith@dcsol.com
<james.smith@dcsol.com> wrote:

From: james.smith@dcsol.com <james.smith@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Landing speed and Thank you to
Si Smith
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 10:33 PM

Keith,

As Dad mentioned to you, the rudder control forces on my Rebel
are much
lighter than Dad's. My Rebel is running 2 guides and 2
pulleys so that
probably has an impact. Also, I'm running a small tailwheel (not
Murphy's) and Dad is running a Scott 3200 so that is also a
factor in the
feel I'm sure. Whatever the specific reason is, the
difference is
dramatic and was basically the first comment that myself, Matt
and Dad had
after flying my Rebel was the difference in the feel of the
rudder. I
have about 1/2 dozen landings on pavement with the 26"
Goodyears and I
think the rudder forces are probably a little too light. You
really have
to be on your toes.

As for landing distances (and take off distances for that
matter) we're
pretty strong believers that the limiting factor in the real short
performance of the Rebel is limited by the angle of attack.
Dad's Rebel
with the 800 X 6 tires and spring gear just doesn't have
enough angle of
attack to take full advantage of his performance potential.
The 26"
Goodyears seem to be a good fit so far. We only have about 13
hours on
my now since the rebuild was completed so we're still working
through> performance. The only down side to the bigger tires so
far is that gear
shakes pretty good after you break groung and the gear starts
vibrating> once you get over about 115 MPH. It really is a nice
flying plane
though. I was hoping to bring it to Fall Colors but with my
wife due
with our 2nd child in 2 weeks and some issues I have going on
at work, I
just couldn't justify taking off for a couple of days.

Hope to get up your way in the next year for sure.

James

On 9/22/2009 4:13 PM, siks@ticon.net wrote to rebel-builders:

-> Hi Keith,
-> Your welcome but remember a few things there were 2 of us
and 40 gal.
-> of fuel on board,, I had only made 3 landings at that strip
before> ours, and -> I was not familiar with the effect of the
quartering cross
wind over the -> trees. I get in to my home airport quite a
bit slower
with flaps and power -> but as Ken said with that kind of an
approach you
better be ready to land -> when the Rebel is but it will land
shorter.> David says his strip is 1800 -> feet and we were
stopped at a little over
the half way point. The last -> glance at the airspeed I saw
65 MPH and
didn't want to get much slower than
-> that at that strip and my knowledge of the strip. I hope we
can get
together
-> again for a little more time in it. Hope your feeling
better and it was
a -> great weekend.
->
-> Si
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: "Keith Leitch" <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:05 AM
-> Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Landing speed and Thank you
to Si Smith
->
->
-> > Ken,
-> >
-> > Thanks for the info. I guess I was a little
"dissapointed" in the
landing -> > speed. I fly mostly out of short strips and the
speed makes a
big -> > difference on these short strips. I guesss I was
looking for
better slow -> > speed ability. Always wanted a Super Cub but
they are WAY
over priced for
-> > what you get.
-> > Si had mentioned that his sons Rebel was using pulleys
and the rudder
was
-> > much less hard.
-> >
-> > Regards,
-> > keith
-> >
-> > --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
-> >
-> >
-> > From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
-> > Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Landing speed and Thank you
to Si Smith
-> > To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> > Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 8:56 AM
-> >
-> >
-> > Hi Keith
-> >
-> > We've seen Si's plane and agree that it is a "rocket"!
-> >
-> > FWIW my rudder (and elevator) is very light to move but I
do have two
-> > pulleys on each of the four cables. Without the pulleys
I've noticed
-> > that you can hear the rudder cables moving through the
guides which
must
-> > add some friction.
-> >
-> > I normally approach at 60 to 65 knots. For a very short
stop I'll
come -> > back as low as 50 over the threshold as long as I
have some
power on and
-> > flaps but that would NOT be a recommended thing. The
caution (as you
-> > will discover) is that when you get this wing behind the
power curve,
it -> > will just sink instead of flaring. I generally like to
keep a
little -> > power on until I'm certain I've flared and am not
descending.> Even in -> > ground effect, there is often only a
second or two between a
level -> > attitude and the 3 point attitude with power off. I
would not
like to -> > experience a power loss if below about 65 knots
with this
airplane. No -> > problem above 65 knots though. With power
off you almost
have to -> > consciously push it down through the last 50 feet
to keep the
speed from
-> > decaying. Weight affects all of this by a few knots.
Anyway there's
one -> > opinion for you. No doubt there will be others ;)
-> >
-> > Ken
-> > (500+ Rebel landings so far...)
-> >
-> > Keith Leitch wrote:
-> >> First of...a big thank you to Si Smith for giving me a
ride in his
-> >> very nice looking Rebel. We recently attended the Fall
Colors Tour
in -> >> Northern MN and he arranged for me to hop aboard his
Rebel for a
-> >> short blast. And Blast is exactly what it was. This was
my first
time -> >> in a Rebel and I was very impressed. He let me take
the stick
for a -> >> bit and I was very impressd with the light feel of
the stick.
I flew -> >> my O-235 powered 7AC in the tour and compared to
it the Rebel
feels -> >> like a sports car as far as the stick goes. I did notice
though that -> >> the rudders were MUCH harder than on my
Champ. Is this
typical? I am -> >> not saying it was bad....just seems like
the stick and
the rudder -> >> pedals are at very opposite extremes of force
needed to
move them. I -> >> really liked the climb also. Seemed to
climb like a
rocket compared -> >> to my 127 and Champ. Now to my main
question....What> speeds are most
-> >> of you landing at? Maybe I am just used to the Champ but
we seemed
to
-> >> land a lot faster in the Rebel than I normally land in
my "Super
-> >> Champ". I was very pleased with Si's Rebel....Very nice
looking and
-> >> performing plane. Again Si, thank you for the ride and
experience.> -> >> Sorry I didn't say goodbye before I left but
I was not feeling well
-> >> all day and needed to go home.
-> >>
-> >> Keith R661

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Keith Leitch · Post by **Keith Leitch** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:33 pm

Walter,
It is about 1000' but that is from the very end to end. Also, the NE end has quite a slope to it...probably 300' til it flattens out. Not many guys want to fly in here. Higher powered Champs, Scout, PA-18's and one 320 powered PA-12. Its the approaches that most guys get scared over. I have slowly been working on that though.
Too bad about needing more for Amphibs. I have an 1800 amphib kit and had always hoped I could fly it out of my place but it doesn't look like that will happen.

Jay Yau · Post by **Jay Yau** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:33 pm

My Rebel engine baffle has put a mark on the cowling fiber glass cover, I noticed a chipped paint came off the cowling, the location is at the corner of #3 cylinder where baffle bent 90 degree. Any one knows the baffle to cowling clearance should be? I think it was cuased during Engine start, my prop dynamic test was better than normal.

Jay/N654JM

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:25:33 -0700
From: im_planecrazy@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Landing speed
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Walter,
It is about 1000' but that is from the very end to end. Also, the NE end has quite a slope to it...probably 300' til it flattens out. Not many guys want to fly in here. Higher powered Champs, Scout, PA-18's and one 320 powered PA-12. Its the approaches that most guys get scared over. I have slowly been working on that though.
Too bad about needing more for Amphibs. I have an 1800 amphib kit and had always hoped I could fly it out of my place but it doesn't look like that will happen.

Keith

--- On Wed, 9/23/09, WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

From: WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Landing speed
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 12:01 PM

How long is your field, Keith? Back when I was on wheels, I used to drop into a 800 foot grass UL field with 2 people, without feeling uncomfortable. The Rebel with full flaps and a little power can land pretty slow on wheels. And that was before I had VGs. Take off was no problem at all with the 320, and was always up in less than half the runway. I even did a 600 foot field with 2 people, but that one you didn't have a lot of room for error, and you had to be ready for a go around.

Amphibs, though, is a whole different story. Minimum for me is a 1500 foot paved runway. It's the landing where you need the room.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Leitch <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:07 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Landing speed
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Thanks Bob! My strip just leaves NO room for error. That is my
biggest concern and the fact that I always seem to fly heavy.
Nothing is very close and I usually carry plenty of fuel for a
round trip excursion, maybe its because I am to cheap to give
the FBO $1+ more per gallon than I pay for fuel. Besides, I
would burn up several gallons just getting to the nearest airport.
I will not even fly my O-235 powered 7AC if the winds are more
than 10MPH. I normally have a crosswind at my strip and it can
get pretty hairy if it is any windier. I am in the process of
trying to extend it a couple hundred feet but dealing with the
wetlands people is NOT easy.

Keith

--- On Wed, 9/23/09, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:

From: Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Landing speed
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 10:33 AM

Hi Keith !

I wouldn't worry too much about the approach speed - good
judgement is much more important ! If you pick the right aiming
spot, you will have no problem landing short.

I could safely fly approaches at 35 -40 mph with full flap
in calm
conditions with my old 912 Rebel - but that is not for the faint-
hearted,
and NOT recommended ! It is FAR better to approach at 65+ mph,
steeply, full flap, to come safely through any wind gradient,
then
flare & land short. The speed bleeds off rapidly with the Rebel,
once the nose is raised. The small extra 'float' gives you time
to get
the tail down to the right position.

My old Rebel often did that, and stopped in less than 140
ft. ....
I could cross the end of our ~3,500 ft. runway at 1,000 ft., descend,
and have to add power to touch down at the far end, where my taxiway
was.

Heavier Rebels will need more space - more inertia -, but it
is still
very common to land & stop an O-320 Rebel in under 500 ft.. You
shouldn't have any worries about the length of your strip.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities
or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is
totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 23 September 2009 12:27, Keith Leitch wrote:
Thanks for the feedback James. If your Rebel is even half as
nice as your
dads it will be a nice Rebel.:) As you have probably guessed,
the main
reason for my question was because of my short strip with obstacles.
Everything I had read prior to this was kudos for the Rebels
in short
strips. As for tires, I have a set of 26" GY's here that I had
on my Champ
prior to installing some AkBushwheels. They are their 26"
Airsteaks and I
eventually plan to install them on the Rebel. They are much
lighter than
the GY's. Do you think the shaking you are getting may be from
imbalance?> You guys are welcome to stop in at any time.
Thanks,
Keith

--- On Tue, 9/22/09, james.smith@dcsol.com
<james.smith@dcsol.com> wrote:

From: james.smith@dcsol.com <james.smith@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Landing speed and Thank you to
Si Smith
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 10:33 PM

Keith,

As Dad mentioned to you, the rudder control forces on my Rebel
are much
lighter than Dad's. My Rebel is running 2 guides and 2
pulleys so that
probably has an impact. Also, I'm running a small tailwheel (not
Murphy's) and Dad is running a Scott 3200 so that is also a
factor in the
feel I'm sure. Whatever the specific reason is, the
difference is
dramatic and was basically the first comment that myself, Matt
and Dad had
after flying my Rebel was the difference in the feel of the
rudder. I
have about 1/2 dozen landings on pavement with the 26"
Goodyears and I
think the rudder forces are probably a little too light. You
really have
to be on your toes.

As for landing distances (and take off distances for that
matter) we're
pretty strong believers that the limiting factor in the real short
performance of the Rebel is limited by the angle of attack.
Dad's Rebel
with the 800 X 6 tires and spring gear just doesn't have
enough angle of
attack to take full advantage of his performance potential.
The 26"
Goodyears seem to be a good fit so far. We only have about 13
hours on
my now since the rebuild was completed so we're still working
through> performance. The only down side to the bigger tires so
far is that gear
shakes pretty good after you break groung and the gear starts
vibrating> once you get over about 115 MPH. It really is a nice
flying plane
though. I was hoping to bring it to Fall Colors but with my
wife due
with our 2nd child in 2 weeks and some issues I have going on
at work, I
just couldn't justify taking off for a couple of days.

Hope to get up your way in the next year for sure.

James

On 9/22/2009 4:13 PM, siks@ticon.net wrote to rebel-builders:

-> Hi Keith,
-> Your welcome but remember a few things there were 2 of us
and 40 gal.
-> of fuel on board,, I had only made 3 landings at that strip
before> ours, and -> I was not familiar with the effect of the
quartering cross
wind over the -> trees. I get in to my home airport quite a
bit slower
with flaps and power -> but as Ken said with that kind of an
approach you
better be ready to land -> when the Rebel is but it will land
shorter.> David says his strip is 1800 -> feet and we were
stopped at a little over
the half way point. The last -> glance at the airspeed I saw
65 MPH and
didn't want to get much slower than
-> that at that strip and my knowledge of the strip. I hope we
can get
together
-> again for a little more time in it. Hope your feeling
better and it was
a -> great weekend.
->
-> Si
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: "Keith Leitch" <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:05 AM
-> Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Landing speed and Thank you
to Si Smith
->
->
-> > Ken,
-> >
-> > Thanks for the info. I guess I was a little
"dissapointed" in the
landing -> > speed. I fly mostly out of short strips and the
speed makes a
big -> > difference on these short strips. I guesss I was
looking for
better slow -> > speed ability. Always wanted a Super Cub but
they are WAY
over priced for
-> > what you get.
-> > Si had mentioned that his sons Rebel was using pulleys
and the rudder
was
-> > much less hard.
-> >
-> > Regards,
-> > keith
-> >
-> > --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
-> >
-> >
-> > From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
-> > Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Landing speed and Thank you
to Si Smith
-> > To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> > Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 8:56 AM
-> >
-> >
-> > Hi Keith
-> >
-> > We've seen Si's plane and agree that it is a "rocket"!
-> >
-> > FWIW my rudder (and elevator) is very light to move but I
do have two
-> > pulleys on each of the four cables. Without the pulleys
I've noticed
-> > that you can hear the rudder cables moving through the
guides which
must
-> > add some friction.
-> >
-> > I normally approach at 60 to 65 knots. For a very short
stop I'll
come -> > back as low as 50 over the threshold as long as I
have some
power on and
-> > flaps but that would NOT be a recommended thing. The
caution (as you
-> > will discover) is that when you get this wing behind the
power curve,
it -> > will just sink instead of flaring. I generally like to
keep a
little -> > power on until I'm certain I've flared and am not
descending.> Even in -> > ground effect, there is often only a
second or two between a
level -> > attitude and the 3 point attitude with power off. I
would not
like to -> > experience a power loss if below about 65 knots
with this
airplane. No -> > problem above 65 knots though. With power
off you almost
have to -> > consciously push it down through the last 50 feet
to keep the
speed from
-> > decaying. Weight affects all of this by a few knots.
Anyway there's
one -> > opinion for you. No doubt there will be others ;)
-> >
-> > Ken
-> > (500+ Rebel landings so far...)
-> >
-> > Keith Leitch wrote:
-> >> First of...a big thank you to Si Smith for giving me a
ride in his
-> >> very nice looking Rebel. We recently attended the Fall
Colors Tour
in -> >> Northern MN and he arranged for me to hop aboard his
Rebel for a
-> >> short blast. And Blast is exactly what it was. This was
my first
time -> >> in a Rebel and I was very impressed. He let me take
the stick
for a -> >> bit and I was very impressd with the light feel of
the stick.
I flew -> >> my O-235 powered 7AC in the tour and compared to
it the Rebel
feels -> >> like a sports car as far as the stick goes. I did notice
though that -> >> the rudders were MUCH harder than on my
Champ. Is this
typical? I am -> >> not saying it was bad....just seems like
the stick and
the rudder -> >> pedals are at very opposite extremes of force
needed to
move them. I -> >> really liked the climb also. Seemed to
climb like a
rocket compared -> >> to my 127 and Champ. Now to my main
question....What> speeds are most
-> >> of you landing at? Maybe I am just used to the Champ but
we seemed
to
-> >> land a lot faster in the Rebel than I normally land in
my "Super
-> >> Champ". I was very pleased with Si's Rebel....Very nice
looking and
-> >> performing plane. Again Si, thank you for the ride and
experience.> -> >> Sorry I didn't say goodbye before I left but
I was not feeling well
-> >> all day and needed to go home.
-> >>
-> >> Keith R661

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WALTER KLATT · Post by **WALTER KLATT** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:33 pm

Maybe others might, but I wouldn't go into a 1000 foot grass field with my amphibs. The problem with amphibs, is that you can't land with too high of an angle of attack, because of the float tails. Also, if you land with your front wheels too high, you risk slamming them down too hard if you cut power. I like to keep my power on until after the front wheels touch down to let them touch as gently as possible. If you land without power, then you need more speed.
Either way, you eat up a lot more runway landing on amphibs.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Leitch <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:31 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Landing speed
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Walter,
It is about 1000' but that is from the very end to end. Also,
the NE end has quite a slope to it...probably 300' til it
flattens out. Not many guys want to fly in here. Higher powered
Champs, Scout, PA-18's and one 320 powered PA-12. Its the
approaches that most guys get scared over. I have slowly been
working on that though.
Too bad about needing more for Amphibs. I have an 1800 amphib
kit and had always hoped I could fly it out of my place but it
doesn't look like that will happen.

Keith

--- On Wed, 9/23/09, WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

From: WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Landing speed
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 12:01 PM

How long is your field, Keith? Back when I was on wheels, I used
to drop into a 800 foot grass UL field with 2 people, without
feeling uncomfortable. The Rebel with full flaps and a little
power can land pretty slow on wheels. And that was before I had
VGs. Take off was no problem at all with the 320, and was always
up in less than half the runway. I even did a 600 foot field
with 2 people, but that one you didn't have a lot of room for
error, and you had to be ready for a go around.

Amphibs, though, is a whole different story. Minimum for me is a
1500 foot paved runway. It's the landing where you need the room.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Leitch <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:07 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Landing speed
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Thanks Bob! My strip just leaves NO room for error. That is
my
biggest concern and the fact that I always seem to fly heavy.
Nothing is very close and I usually carry plenty of fuel for a
round trip excursion, maybe its because I am to cheap to give
the FBO $1+ more per gallon than I pay for fuel. Besides, I
would burn up several gallons just getting to the nearest airport.
I will not even fly my O-235 powered 7AC if the winds are more
than 10MPH. I normally have a crosswind at my strip and it can
get pretty hairy if it is any windier. I am in the process of
trying to extend it a couple hundred feet but dealing with the
wetlands people is NOT easy.

Keith

--- On Wed, 9/23/09, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:

From: Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Landing speed
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 10:33 AM

Hi Keith !

I wouldn't worry too much about the approach speed - good
judgement is much more important ! If you pick the right aiming
spot, you will have no problem landing short.

I could safely fly approaches at 35 -40 mph with full flap
in calm
conditions with my old 912 Rebel - but that is not for the
faint-
hearted,
and NOT recommended ! It is FAR better to approach at 65+
mph,
steeply, full flap, to come safely through any wind gradient,
then
flare & land short. The speed bleeds off rapidly with the Rebel,
once the nose is raised. The small extra 'float' gives you
time
to get
the tail down to the right position.

My old Rebel often did that, and stopped in less than 140
ft. ....
I could cross the end of our ~3,500 ft. runway at 1,000 ft.,
descend,> and have to add power to touch down at the far end,
where my taxiway
was.

Heavier Rebels will need more space - more inertia -, but
it
is still
very common to land & stop an O-320 Rebel in under 500 ft.. You
shouldn't have any worries about the length of your strip.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the
individual
sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities
or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is
totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Wednesday 23 September 2009 12:27, Keith Leitch wrote:
Thanks for the feedback James. If your Rebel is even half as
nice as your
dads it will be a nice Rebel.:) As you have probably
guessed,
the main
reason for my question was because of my short strip with
obstacles.> > Everything I had read prior to this was kudos for
the Rebels
in short
strips. As for tires, I have a set of 26" GY's here that I
had
on my Champ
prior to installing some AkBushwheels. They are their 26"
Airsteaks and I
eventually plan to install them on the Rebel. They are much
lighter than
the GY's. Do you think the shaking you are getting may be
from
imbalance?> You guys are welcome to stop in at any time.
Thanks,
Keith

--- On Tue, 9/22/09, james.smith@dcsol.com
<james.smith@dcsol.com> wrote:

From: james.smith@dcsol.com <james.smith@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Landing speed and Thank you to
Si Smith
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 10:33 PM

Keith,

As Dad mentioned to you, the rudder control forces on my
Rebel
are much
lighter than Dad's. My Rebel is running 2 guides and 2
pulleys so that
probably has an impact. Also, I'm running a small tailwheel (not
Murphy's) and Dad is running a Scott 3200 so that is also a
factor in the
feel I'm sure. Whatever the specific reason is, the
difference is
dramatic and was basically the first comment that myself,
Matt
and Dad had
after flying my Rebel was the difference in the feel of the
rudder. I
have about 1/2 dozen landings on pavement with the 26"
Goodyears and I
think the rudder forces are probably a little too light.
You
really have
to be on your toes.

As for landing distances (and take off distances for that
matter) we're
pretty strong believers that the limiting factor in the real short
performance of the Rebel is limited by the angle of attack.
Dad's Rebel
with the 800 X 6 tires and spring gear just doesn't have
enough angle of
attack to take full advantage of his performance potential.
The 26"
Goodyears seem to be a good fit so far. We only have about
13
hours on
my now since the rebuild was completed so we're still
working
through> performance. The only down side to the bigger tires
so
far is that gear
shakes pretty good after you break groung and the gear
starts
vibrating> once you get over about 115 MPH. It really is a
nice
flying plane
though. I was hoping to bring it to Fall Colors but with my
wife due
with our 2nd child in 2 weeks and some issues I have going
on
at work, I
just couldn't justify taking off for a couple of days.

Hope to get up your way in the next year for sure.

James

On 9/22/2009 4:13 PM, siks@ticon.net wrote to rebel-builders:

-> Hi Keith,
-> Your welcome but remember a few things there were 2 of us
and 40 gal.
-> of fuel on board,, I had only made 3 landings at that
strip
before> ours, and -> I was not familiar with the effect of the
quartering cross
wind over the -> trees. I get in to my home airport quite a
bit slower
with flaps and power -> but as Ken said with that kind of an
approach you
better be ready to land -> when the Rebel is but it will
land
shorter.> David says his strip is 1800 -> feet and we were
stopped at a little over
the half way point. The last -> glance at the airspeed I saw
65 MPH and
didn't want to get much slower than
-> that at that strip and my knowledge of the strip. I hope
we
can get
together
-> again for a little more time in it. Hope your feeling
better and it was
a -> great weekend.
->
-> Si
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: "Keith Leitch" <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:05 AM
-> Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Landing speed and Thank you
to Si Smith
->
->
-> > Ken,
-> >
-> > Thanks for the info. I guess I was a little
"dissapointed" in the
landing -> > speed. I fly mostly out of short strips and the
speed makes a
big -> > difference on these short strips. I guesss I was
looking for
better slow -> > speed ability. Always wanted a Super Cub
but
they are WAY
over priced for
-> > what you get.
-> > Si had mentioned that his sons Rebel was using pulleys
and the rudder
was
-> > much less hard.
-> >
-> > Regards,
-> > keith
-> >
-> > --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
-> >
-> >
-> > From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
-> > Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Landing speed and Thank
you
to Si Smith
-> > To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> > Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 8:56 AM
-> >
-> >
-> > Hi Keith
-> >
-> > We've seen Si's plane and agree that it is a "rocket"!
-> >
-> > FWIW my rudder (and elevator) is very light to move but
I
do have two
-> > pulleys on each of the four cables. Without the pulleys
I've noticed
-> > that you can hear the rudder cables moving through the
guides which
must
-> > add some friction.
-> >
-> > I normally approach at 60 to 65 knots. For a very short
stop I'll
come -> > back as low as 50 over the threshold as long as I
have some
power on and
-> > flaps but that would NOT be a recommended thing. The
caution (as you
-> > will discover) is that when you get this wing behind
the
power curve,
it -> > will just sink instead of flaring. I generally like
to
keep a
little -> > power on until I'm certain I've flared and am
not
descending.> Even in -> > ground effect, there is often only a
second or two between a
level -> > attitude and the 3 point attitude with power off.
I
would not
like to -> > experience a power loss if below about 65 knots
with this
airplane. No -> > problem above 65 knots though. With power
off you almost
have to -> > consciously push it down through the last 50
feet
to keep the
speed from
-> > decaying. Weight affects all of this by a few knots.
Anyway there's
one -> > opinion for you. No doubt there will be others ;)
-> >
-> > Ken
-> > (500+ Rebel landings so far...)
-> >
-> > Keith Leitch wrote:
-> >> First of...a big thank you to Si Smith for giving me a
ride in his
-> >> very nice looking Rebel. We recently attended the Fall
Colors Tour
in -> >> Northern MN and he arranged for me to hop aboard
his
Rebel for a
-> >> short blast. And Blast is exactly what it was. This
was
my first
time -> >> in a Rebel and I was very impressed. He let me
take
the stick
for a -> >> bit and I was very impressd with the light feel
of
the stick.
I flew -> >> my O-235 powered 7AC in the tour and compared
to
it the Rebel
feels -> >> like a sports car as far as the stick goes. I
did notice
though that -> >> the rudders were MUCH harder than on my
Champ. Is this
typical? I am -> >> not saying it was bad....just seems like
the stick and
the rudder -> >> pedals are at very opposite extremes of
force
needed to
move them. I -> >> really liked the climb also. Seemed to
climb like a
rocket compared -> >> to my 127 and Champ. Now to my main
question....What> speeds are most
-> >> of you landing at? Maybe I am just used to the Champ
but
we seemed
to
-> >> land a lot faster in the Rebel than I normally land in
my "Super
-> >> Champ". I was very pleased with Si's Rebel....Very
nice
looking and
-> >> performing plane. Again Si, thank you for the ride and
experience.> -> >> Sorry I didn't say goodbye before I left
but
I was not feeling well
-> >> all day and needed to go home.
-> >>
-> >> Keith R661

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:33 pm

I've taken off from a 1200' gas strip on a 90 degree windless day loaded
over 1700lbs with my amphibs on the plane. I was pretty nevous because of
hydro wires right at the end of the strip but we were off in less than 500'
and about 150' when we crossed over the wires. With practice I think you
could operate out of your strip on floats but I'm not sure that murphy
floats are tough enough for regular use on grass. For really short landings
on wheels I like to come in high and slip all the way down till it's time
to flare.

At 10:25 AM 23/09/2009 -0700, you wrote:

Walter,
It is about 1000' but that is from the very end to end. Also, the NE end

has quite a slope to it...probably 300' til it flattens out. Not many guys
want to fly in here. Higher powered Champs, Scout, PA-18's and one 320
powered PA-12. Its the approaches that most guys get scared over. I have
slowly been working on that though.

Too bad about needing more for Amphibs. I have an 1800 amphib kit and had

always hoped I could fly it out of my place but it doesn't look like that
will happen.