[rebel-builders] Rebel Flapperon/Aileron settings

[Bob Patterson]

Hi Charlie !

I'm pretty sure that the flapperon settings are all in 6 degree
increments, with 6, 12, and 18 degrees down, and 6 and 12 up.
Some have chosen to use only 10 up .... for their own reasons...
18 degrees down IS the limit, without aileron input.

Generally, if you have less than 116 hp., it will be difficult to
fly well with 2 notches of negative, unless you are very light.
Sometimes, if very hot & heavy, even one notch is difficult.

It's unlikely that you will be able to obtain the aileron deflections
listed in the book on later Rebels, because dimensions were changed
on the forward bellcrank (CC-47 ?? --> CC-47-2), supposedly to lighten
stick force (not needed). The longer forward arm reduces aileron
travel - and roll rate. Several builders have shortened this arm
back to the original length. (No, I can't remember the length,
but someone else might chime in here - or I'll have to go up
& measure mine - again ... ;-) )

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 23 September 2009 13:21, Charlie Eubanks wrote:
[quote]Hello All

I have started to install the controls for the flaps and ailerons on my
Rebel (1320 Lbs.) but I wanted to confirm that I had the right dimensions
to start with. I don't remember seeing any figures in the manual but in
the "Rebel File Library" under 211 Control System there is a PDF file
titled "Control Surface Deflection Guide" which sounds like it was
published by Murphy. Under "Ailerons" it states the ideal arrangement is
for 4" UP and 3-1/4" Down travel. Under "Flapperon" it calls for 3-1/2" or
15

[craig]

I'm guessing my CC-47 is the smaller, original shape. My kit was made in
1992. I can measure or trace it and send it out if anyone's interested.
Craig




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[Charlie Eubanks]

Thanks for the quick response Bob, Craig
I may be a little confused, the bellcrank I have is indeed referred to in
the manual as CC-47-2 and has two different length arms. The short arm is
2-3/8 long and is shown pointing forward and gets it input from the stick.
The longer arm is 2-5/8 and is attached to the push/pull rod to the mixer
cam. How muck deflection do you think I should be able to get? Should I make
a bellcrank with a longer/shorter arm?

Craig
How long are the arms on the bellcrank in your early kit?
Charlie E.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bobp@prosumers.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Flapperon/Aileron settings


[quote]
Hi Charlie !

I'm pretty sure that the flapperon settings are all in 6 degree
increments, with 6, 12, and 18 degrees down, and 6 and 12 up.
Some have chosen to use only 10 up .... for their own reasons...
18 degrees down IS the limit, without aileron input.

Generally, if you have less than 116 hp., it will be difficult to
fly well with 2 notches of negative, unless you are very light.
Sometimes, if very hot & heavy, even one notch is difficult.

It's unlikely that you will be able to obtain the aileron deflections
listed in the book on later Rebels, because dimensions were changed
on the forward bellcrank (CC-47 ?? --> CC-47-2), supposedly to lighten
stick force (not needed). The longer forward arm reduces aileron
travel - and roll rate. Several builders have shortened this arm
back to the original length. (No, I can't remember the length,
but someone else might chime in here - or I'll have to go up
& measure mine - again ... ;-) )

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 23 September 2009 13:21, Charlie Eubanks wrote:
[quote]Hello All

I have started to install the controls for the flaps and ailerons on my
Rebel (1320 Lbs.) but I wanted to confirm that I had the right dimensions
to start with. I don't remember seeing any figures in the manual but in
the "Rebel File Library" under 211 Control System there is a PDF file
titled "Control Surface Deflection Guide" which sounds like it was
published by Murphy. Under "Ailerons" it states the ideal arrangement is
for 4" UP and 3-1/4" Down travel. Under "Flapperon" it calls for 3-1/2"
or
15

[Bob Patterson]

Hi Charlie !

A quick dig in the ARCHIVES found this email:

indabush@hay.net wrote:
Since I just went through this process, here are the results of my control
defection measurements in comparison to the MAM's guidelines that were
just posted. The inspector took the information, but did not comment on
it.

Elevator: 28* up, 22* down (MAM 25* up, 25* down)
I had written down (source unknown) that +28, -22 was the right set-up.
Might have been from BobP.

Rudder: 25* both ways (MAM same)
I had to redesign the rudder stops to get this amount of travel. It
originally came in at 20* when built to the manual

Ailerons: 3.65" up, 3.2" down (MAM 3" to 4" up, 2.75" to 3.25" down)
I had to do a little filing at the mixer arm bell-crank to eliminate
interference. I doubt the minimum numbers would result in any control
issues with the square footage of control surface.

Flaps: 3.5" max (MAM 3.5")
_____________________________
Mike Ash
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can't remember Mike's serial number, but think it's old enough
to have the original bellcrank - unless it was upgraded...

Will keep digging .... If you can't get the travel, I would shorten
the horn arm, or make another - but that's just me ! ;-)
--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 23 September 2009 18:44, Charlie Eubanks wrote:
[quote]Thanks for the quick response Bob, Craig
I may be a little confused, the bellcrank I have is indeed referred to in
the manual as CC-47-2 and has two different length arms. The short arm is
2-3/8 long and is shown pointing forward and gets it input from the stick.
The longer arm is 2-5/8 and is attached to the push/pull rod to the mixer
cam. How muck deflection do you think I should be able to get? Should I
make a bellcrank with a longer/shorter arm?

Craig
How long are the arms on the bellcrank in your early kit?
Charlie E.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bobp@prosumers.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Flapperon/Aileron settings

[quote]Hi Charlie !

I'm pretty sure that the flapperon settings are all in 6 degree
increments, with 6, 12, and 18 degrees down, and 6 and 12 up.
Some have chosen to use only 10 up .... for their own reasons...
18 degrees down IS the limit, without aileron input.

Generally, if you have less than 116 hp., it will be difficult to
fly well with 2 notches of negative, unless you are very light.
Sometimes, if very hot & heavy, even one notch is difficult.

It's unlikely that you will be able to obtain the aileron deflections
listed in the book on later Rebels, because dimensions were changed
on the forward bellcrank (CC-47 ?? --> CC-47-2), supposedly to lighten
stick force (not needed). The longer forward arm reduces aileron
travel - and roll rate. Several builders have shortened this arm
back to the original length. (No, I can't remember the length,
but someone else might chime in here - or I'll have to go up
& measure mine - again ... ;-) )

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or
persons. Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is
totally the responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Wednesday 23 September 2009 13:21, Charlie Eubanks wrote:
[quote]Hello All

I have started to install the controls for the flaps and ailerons on my
Rebel (1320 Lbs.) but I wanted to confirm that I had the right
dimensions to start with. I don't remember seeing any figures in the
manual but in the "Rebel File Library" under 211 Control System there
is a PDF file titled "Control Surface Deflection Guide" which sounds
like it was published by Murphy. Under "Ailerons" it states the ideal
arrangement is for 4" UP and 3-1/4" Down travel. Under "Flapperon" it
calls for 3-1/2" or
15

[Charlie Eubanks]

Thanks Bob
If you thank the figures Mike has are OK that's what I will shoot for. I
appreciate the info but I did not want to put you to work. If the answer are
in the archives I can do the searching.
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bobp@prosumers.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Flapperon/Aileron settings


[quote]
Hi Charlie !

A quick dig in the ARCHIVES found this email:

indabush@hay.net wrote:
Since I just went through this process, here are the results of my
control
defection measurements in comparison to the MAM's guidelines that were
just posted. The inspector took the information, but did not comment on
it.

Elevator: 28* up, 22* down (MAM 25* up, 25* down)
I had written down (source unknown) that +28, -22 was the right set-up.
Might have been from BobP.

Rudder: 25* both ways (MAM same)
I had to redesign the rudder stops to get this amount of travel. It
originally came in at 20* when built to the manual

Ailerons: 3.65" up, 3.2" down (MAM 3" to 4" up, 2.75" to 3.25" down)
I had to do a little filing at the mixer arm bell-crank to eliminate
interference. I doubt the minimum numbers would result in any control
issues with the square footage of control surface.

Flaps: 3.5" max (MAM 3.5")
_____________________________
Mike Ash
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can't remember Mike's serial number, but think it's old enough
to have the original bellcrank - unless it was upgraded...

Will keep digging .... If you can't get the travel, I would shorten
the horn arm, or make another - but that's just me ! ;-)
--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 23 September 2009 18:44, Charlie Eubanks wrote:
[quote]Thanks for the quick response Bob, Craig
I may be a little confused, the bellcrank I have is indeed referred to in
the manual as CC-47-2 and has two different length arms. The short arm is
2-3/8 long and is shown pointing forward and gets it input from the
stick.
The longer arm is 2-5/8 and is attached to the push/pull rod to the mixer
cam. How muck deflection do you think I should be able to get? Should I
make a bellcrank with a longer/shorter arm?

Craig
How long are the arms on the bellcrank in your early kit?
Charlie E.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bobp@prosumers.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Flapperon/Aileron settings

[quote]Hi Charlie !

I'm pretty sure that the flapperon settings are all in 6 degree
increments, with 6, 12, and 18 degrees down, and 6 and 12 up.
Some have chosen to use only 10 up .... for their own reasons...
18 degrees down IS the limit, without aileron input.

Generally, if you have less than 116 hp., it will be difficult to
fly well with 2 notches of negative, unless you are very light.
Sometimes, if very hot & heavy, even one notch is difficult.

It's unlikely that you will be able to obtain the aileron deflections
listed in the book on later Rebels, because dimensions were changed
on the forward bellcrank (CC-47 ?? --> CC-47-2), supposedly to lighten
stick force (not needed). The longer forward arm reduces aileron
travel - and roll rate. Several builders have shortened this arm
back to the original length. (No, I can't remember the length,
but someone else might chime in here - or I'll have to go up
& measure mine - again ... ;-) )

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or
persons. Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is
totally the responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Wednesday 23 September 2009 13:21, Charlie Eubanks wrote:
[quote]Hello All

I have started to install the controls for the flaps and ailerons on
my
Rebel (1320 Lbs.) but I wanted to confirm that I had the right
dimensions to start with. I don't remember seeing any figures in the
manual but in the "Rebel File Library" under 211 Control System there
is a PDF file titled "Control Surface Deflection Guide" which sounds
like it was published by Murphy. Under "Ailerons" it states the ideal
arrangement is for 4" UP and 3-1/4" Down travel. Under "Flapperon" it
calls for 3-1/2" or
15

[craig]

I went out and measured my CC-47. The short arm is 2". The long one is 2
7/8".




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[Bob Patterson]

Thanks Craig !

The important measurements are - the center of the middle hole
to the center of each of the outer holes.... especially the forward
one. Does anyone have those to post ??? Charlie ???

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 24 September 2009 02:24, craig wrote:

I went out and measured my CC-47. The short arm is 2". The long one is 2
7/8".

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[gleeso1]

Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks Craig !

The important measurements are - the center of the middle hole
to the center of each of the outer holes.... especially the forward
one. Does anyone have those to post ??? Charlie ???

Just went and measured my CC47, 2 3/8" short and 2 5/8" for the longer arm.

John
Rebel 804 downunder.




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[Jeff Micheal]

Original design CC-0047 (2" arm x 2"7/8 arm), current design CC-0047-2
(2"3/8 arm x 2"5/8 arm). Measurements are from Center to Center of holes.

Cheers,
Jeff


On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:17 PM, gleeso1 <gleeso1@iprimus.com.au> wrote:

Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks Craig !

The important measurements are - the center of the middle hole
to the center of each of the outer holes.... especially the forward
one. Does anyone have those to post ??? Charlie ???

Just went and measured my CC47, 2 3/8" short and 2 5/8" for the longer
arm.

John
Rebel 804 downunder.




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[Charlie Eubanks]

My C-47-2 measures 2-3/8 & 2-5/8. When I finish installation I will post the
aileron/flapperon deflections..
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bobp@prosumers.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Flapperon/Aileron settings

Thanks Craig !

The important measurements are - the center of the middle hole
to the center of each of the outer holes.... especially the forward
one. Does anyone have those to post ??? Charlie ???

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 24 September 2009 02:24, craig wrote:

I went out and measured my CC-47. The short arm is 2". The long one is
2
7/8".

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[Bob Patterson]

Thanks Jeff !

There you have it ! If you want the original full deflection, you
can make a new bellcrank, or, as some have done, modify the new one
to be closer to original measurements. Aileron control forces will be
slightly higher - never been a problem for me...

If you can live with less deflection and slower roll rate - And
possibly less crosswind capability - then just use the new one .....

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 24 September 2009 05:36, Jeff Micheal wrote:

Original design CC-0047 (2" arm x 2"7/8 arm), current design CC-0047-2
(2"3/8 arm x 2"5/8 arm). Measurements are from Center to Center of holes.

Cheers,
Jeff

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:17 PM, gleeso1 <gleeso1@iprimus.com.au> wrote:

Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks Craig !

The important measurements are - the center of the middle hole
to the center of each of the outer holes.... especially the forward
one. Does anyone have those to post ??? Charlie ???

Just went and measured my CC47, 2 3/8" short and 2 5/8" for the longer
arm.

John
Rebel 804 downunder.

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[snowyrvr@mtaonline.net]

Those are the hole to hole measurements CW

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Bob Patterson bobp@prosumers.ca
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:42:30 +0000
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Flapperon/Aileron settings



Thanks Craig !

The important measurements are - the center of the middle hole
to the center of each of the outer holes.... especially the forward
one. Does anyone have those to post ??? Charlie ???

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 24 September 2009 02:24, craig wrote:

I went out and measured my CC-47. The short arm is 2". The long one is 2
7/8".

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