[rebel-builders] vortex generators

[Bob Palmer]

See Pacific Northwest Aero <cid:part1.08000301.00080409@shaw.ca>
pre-tested kits for Murphy products. They really do include everything
you need including an instructional CD. I noticed that they increased
the density of the VG's over the aileron area which seems like a good
idea. Haven't tried them yet though.

Bob

Darryl Conway wrote:

Another source would be Pacific Aero Northwest. Their VG's are aluminum and have the template for exact layout for full wing, stabilizer, and vertical fin. I installed them before first flight, so I have no comparison otherwise. The cost was about $250-275, included everything needed for prep and installation. My Moose can be flown really slow, it's just too bad I can't land the thing as slow as it will fly due to the high angle of attack.


Darryl


________________________________
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Sun, January 17, 2010 9:25:53 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators

I have the landshorter ones. When I did my testing back with the old 320 on
amphibs, my float take-offs were affected and my stall was lowered. I also
did full speed test runs before and after, and there was zero difference.
Later, I also noticed improved control on crosswind take-offs from my bay
during high wind conditions.

The only drawback is that I have broke a couple in front of my fuel fillers,
when filling from containers. I should never have put any there. The
aluminum ones probably would have just been flattened.

Mine are at the 10% position. Haven't tried them on the stabs, but based on
Eric's experience, might be very beneficial for the Rebel, too.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of craig
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 8:11 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators

Someone please refresh my memory....which brand of VG's are we using on the
rebel? Source? Thanks, Craig



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[Bob Palmer]

I meant to provide a link but that didn't work.

Pacific Northwest Aero = http://www.pnwaero.com/murphy.htm


Bob Palmer wrote:

See Pacific Northwest Aero <cid:part1.08000301.00080409@shaw.ca>
pre-tested kits for Murphy products. They really do include everything
you need including an instructional CD. I noticed that they increased
the density of the VG's over the aileron area which seems like a good
idea. Haven't tried them yet though.

Bob

Darryl Conway wrote:

Another source would be Pacific Aero Northwest. Their VG's are aluminum and have the template for exact layout for full wing, stabilizer, and vertical fin. I installed them before first flight, so I have no comparison otherwise. The cost was about $250-275, included everything needed for prep and installation. My Moose can be flown really slow, it's just too bad I can't land the thing as slow as it will fly due to the high angle of attack.


Darryl


________________________________
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Sun, January 17, 2010 9:25:53 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators

I have the landshorter ones. When I did my testing back with the old 320 on
amphibs, my float take-offs were affected and my stall was lowered. I also
did full speed test runs before and after, and there was zero difference.
Later, I also noticed improved control on crosswind take-offs from my bay
during high wind conditions.

The only drawback is that I have broke a couple in front of my fuel fillers,
when filling from containers. I should never have put any there. The
aluminum ones probably would have just been flattened.

Mine are at the 10% position. Haven't tried them on the stabs, but based on
Eric's experience, might be very beneficial for the Rebel, too.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of craig
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 8:11 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators

Someone please refresh my memory....which brand of VG's are we using on the
rebel? Source? Thanks, Craig



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[Ron Shannon]

Bob, I gather you have a PNWA VG kit for the Rebel. Where are they
recommending placement along the MAC, i.e., how far behind the leading edge?

Ron


On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Bob Palmer <rtpalmer@shaw.ca> wrote:

I meant to provide a link but that didn't work.

Pacific Northwest Aero = http://www.pnwaero.com/murphy.htm


Bob Palmer wrote:

See Pacific Northwest Aero <cid:part1.08000301.00080409@shaw.ca<cid%3Apart1.08000301.00080409@shaw.ca>

pre-tested kits for Murphy products. They really do include everything
you need including an instructional CD. I noticed that they increased
the density of the VG's over the aileron area which seems like a good
idea. Haven't tried them yet though.

Bob

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[Bob Palmer]

Ron,

Mine are for an Elite. I am not sure if they are exactly the same but
they likely are. As I recall the leading edge of the VG is positioned
5-5/8" aft of the wing leading edge. My son put them on and he said that
he was glad we have flush riveting otherwise he would have had to shift
them slightly or rout out a few of the rivet heads into the VG.

Bob

Shannon wrote:

Bob, I gather you have a PNWA VG kit for the Rebel. Where are they
recommending placement along the MAC, i.e., how far behind the leading edge?

Ron


On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Bob Palmer <rtpalmer@shaw.ca> wrote:

I meant to provide a link but that didn't work.

Pacific Northwest Aero = http://www.pnwaero.com/murphy.htm


Bob Palmer wrote:

See Pacific Northwest Aero <cid:part1.08000301.00080409@shaw.ca<cid%3Apart1.08000301.00080409@shaw.ca>

pre-tested kits for Murphy products. They really do include everything
you need including an instructional CD. I noticed that they increased
the density of the VG's over the aileron area which seems like a good
idea. Haven't tried them yet though.

Bob

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[Ron Shannon]

Thanks, Bob. That would put them at essentially 10% MAC (6"). With
identical airfoils, the Rebel/Elite distinction shouldn't make a difference.
I am tempted to put the outboard 1/4 of the VG's further forward, as Micro
Aero suggests for all, with the rest of the inboard ones where yours are,
presumably achieving some of the desirable washout effect, while minimizing
cruise drag -- if Land Shorter, et al., are correct about placement further
aft. I've seen Super Cubs and Husky's with that kind of split / offset
layout.

Ron
254R


On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 8:17 AM, Bob Palmer <rtpalmer@shaw.ca> wrote:

Ron,

Mine are for an Elite. I am not sure if they are exactly the same but
they likely are. As I recall the leading edge of the VG is positioned
5-5/8" aft of the wing leading edge. My son put them on and he said that
he was glad we have flush riveting otherwise he would have had to shift
them slightly or rout out a few of the rivet heads into the VG.

Bob

Shannon wrote:

Bob, I gather you have a PNWA VG kit for the Rebel. Where are they
recommending placement along the MAC, i.e., how far behind the leading

edge?

Ron

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[Bob Palmer]

Ron,

As I mentioned in the first post, PNWA increases the number of VGs in
the aileron area which seems aimed at achieving the same thing.

Bob.


Shannon wrote:

Thanks, Bob. That would put them at essentially 10% MAC (6"). With
identical airfoils, the Rebel/Elite distinction shouldn't make a difference.
I am tempted to put the outboard 1/4 of the VG's further forward, as Micro
Aero suggests for all, with the rest of the inboard ones where yours are,
presumably achieving some of the desirable washout effect, while minimizing
cruise drag -- if Land Shorter, et al., are correct about placement further
aft. I've seen Super Cubs and Husky's with that kind of split / offset
layout.

Ron
254R

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[Ron Shannon]

Understood. Thanks.

Ron
254R


On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Bob Palmer <rtpalmer@shaw.ca> wrote:

Ron,

As I mentioned in the first post, PNWA increases the number of VGs in
the aileron area which seems aimed at achieving the same thing.

Bob.

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[Miller, Ross W]

Has anyone put Vortex Generators on their Moose, and are there any documented performance data to support the results?

Ross 203SR
Ross.miller@gdit.com

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[Curtis Langholz]

My friend Chuck -176R (225PC) has VG's on his Rebel. He got them from Micro Aerodynamics in Aberdeen, Washington. With both of us in this Rebel it stalled at 36 mph with no power it was settling with a little nose high attitude. Solo he said with flapserons and no power it settles to the runway around 30 mph. I beleive they were about half the price of certified aircraft VG's. They also used my Cessna 120 for the STC on their VG's. It lowered my stall speed 6 mph with full aileron control in a stall. It gave it about 25 - 30% better aileron control. They will be going on my Rebel after I get her flying!

Curtis

175R

From: cws1932@cox.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Vortex generators
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 13:08:06 -0500

I think I posted this info some time ago - but maybe not. I put VG's on my SR-2500 (wings & horizontal stab) some months ago and found they made a remarkable difference. Prior to install, I found that I could run out of elevator during 3 point landings unless there was an aft cg. Power off stalls are practically a non-event. It simply will finally show a 500-700 fpm descent with no fall off on a wing. With power or flaps there is a break, but little fall off of a wing. Ailerons are actually somewhat effective even in a full stall. Seems to make ailerons more effective during normal flight, also.

I used the Hall Brothers VG's (double posted verticals) which are considerably less expensive than some others. They (on wings) are installed in the 10% - 12% of chord range (actually behind a stringer rivet line at about 11.2%). I experimented with several different placements and found that it is not as critical as some have stated. Very easy to install with the supplied epoxy or with the type used for granite counter tops. I believe it would take dynamite to get one off.

Only adverse effect (if you want to call it that) is that unless on speed for landings, it really tends to float - won't stall!

Charlie Starr - N96CS



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[Miller, Ross W]

Thanks Curtis. The responses I've received have all been positive and I am definitely going to put them on my Moose when I get to that stage.




----- Original Message -----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: REBEL BUILDERS <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thu Jun 10 10:01:30 2010
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Vortex generators


My friend Chuck -176R (225PC) has VG's on his Rebel. He got them from Micro Aerodynamics in Aberdeen, Washington. With both of us in this Rebel it stalled at 36 mph with no power it was settling with a little nose high attitude. Solo he said with flapserons and no power it settles to the runway around 30 mph. I beleive they were about half the price of certified aircraft VG's. They also used my Cessna 120 for the STC on their VG's. It lowered my stall speed 6 mph with full aileron control in a stall. It gave it about 25 - 30% better aileron control. They will be going on my Rebel after I get her flying!

Curtis

175R

From: cws1932@cox.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Vortex generators
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 13:08:06 -0500

I think I posted this info some time ago - but maybe not. I put VG's on my SR-2500 (wings & horizontal stab) some months ago and found they made a remarkable difference. Prior to install, I found that I could run out of elevator during 3 point landings unless there was an aft cg. Power off stalls are practically a non-event. It simply will finally show a 500-700 fpm descent with no fall off on a wing. With power or flaps there is a break, but little fall off of a wing. Ailerons are actually somewhat effective even in a full stall. Seems to make ailerons more effective during normal flight, also.

I used the Hall Brothers VG's (double posted verticals) which are considerably less expensive than some others. They (on wings) are installed in the 10% - 12% of chord range (actually behind a stringer rivet line at about 11.2%). I experimented with several different placements and found that it is not as critical as some have stated. Very easy to install with the supplied epoxy or with the type used for granite counter tops. I believe it would take dynamite to get one off.

Only adverse effect (if you want to call it that) is that unless on speed for landings, it really tends to float - won't stall!

Charlie Starr - N96CS



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[Ron Shannon]

Curtis,

Thanks for this report. I also have the Micro Aero VG's, though not
installed yet. Can you tell us where Chuck's are installed, i.e., behind the
first rivet line (~2.5% MAC) or behind the second rivet line (~10% MAC)?

Micro Aero is rather firm about recommending the more forward location for
their VG's the Rebel. They wouldn't budge on that even after I quoted other
placement opinions and results posted on this list a few months back, and it
would be interesting to confirm whether Chuck followed their placement
instructions or not.

Thanks.

Ron
254R


On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 7:01 AM, Curtis Langholz <c120pilot@hotmail.com>wrote:

My friend Chuck -176R (225PC) has VG's on his Rebel. He got them from
Micro Aerodynamics in Aberdeen, Washington. With both of us in this Rebel it
stalled at 36 mph with no power it was settling with a little nose high
attitude. Solo he said with flapserons and no power it settles to the runway
around 30 mph. I beleive they were about half the price of certified
aircraft VG's. They also used my Cessna 120 for the STC on their VG's. It
lowered my stall speed 6 mph with full aileron control in a stall. It gave
it about 25 - 30% better aileron control. They will be going on my Rebel
after I get her flying!

Curtis

175R

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[Jones, Michael]

What about vortex generators if you have the stol kit from angus, anyone
tried ??

Cheers

Mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ron Shannon
Sent: June 10, 2010 11:57 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Vortex generators

Curtis,

Thanks for this report. I also have the Micro Aero VG's, though not
installed yet. Can you tell us where Chuck's are installed, i.e., behind
the
first rivet line (~2.5% MAC) or behind the second rivet line (~10% MAC)?

Micro Aero is rather firm about recommending the more forward location
for
their VG's the Rebel. They wouldn't budge on that even after I quoted
other
placement opinions and results posted on this list a few months back,
and it
would be interesting to confirm whether Chuck followed their placement
instructions or not.

Thanks.

Ron
254R


On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 7:01 AM, Curtis Langholz
<c120pilot@hotmail.com>wrote:

My friend Chuck -176R (225PC) has VG's on his Rebel. He got them from
Micro Aerodynamics in Aberdeen, Washington. With both of us in this

Rebel it

stalled at 36 mph with no power it was settling with a little nose

high

attitude. Solo he said with flapserons and no power it settles to the

runway

around 30 mph. I beleive they were about half the price of certified
aircraft VG's. They also used my Cessna 120 for the STC on their VG's.

It

lowered my stall speed 6 mph with full aileron control in a stall. It

gave

it about 25 - 30% better aileron control. They will be going on my

Rebel

after I get her flying!

Curtis

175R

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[Curtis Langholz]

Ron,

I beleive he followed their pattern behind the first rivet line. I called him and he is going to send a picture to me.

What kind of results to others get with different placement of the VG's? On my Cessna 120 they were close to the leading edge also but were smaller in size then the ones for the Rebels. After having them on the 120 I plan on putting them on any other plane I own. They really made it a safer plane to land due to the full aileron control in a stall without getting into a spin, even trying to in cross control stall it would not drop a wing.

Curtis

175R

From: rshannon@cruzcom.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 08:56:53 -0700
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Vortex generators
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Curtis,

Thanks for this report. I also have the Micro Aero VG's, though not
installed yet. Can you tell us where Chuck's are installed, i.e., behind the
first rivet line (~2.5% MAC) or behind the second rivet line (~10% MAC)?

Micro Aero is rather firm about recommending the more forward location for
their VG's the Rebel. They wouldn't budge on that even after I quoted other
placement opinions and results posted on this list a few months back, and it
would be interesting to confirm whether Chuck followed their placement
instructions or not.

Thanks.

Ron
254R


On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 7:01 AM, Curtis Langholz <c120pilot@hotmail.com>wrote:

My friend Chuck -176R (225PC) has VG's on his Rebel. He got them from
Micro Aerodynamics in Aberdeen, Washington. With both of us in this Rebel it
stalled at 36 mph with no power it was settling with a little nose high
attitude. Solo he said with flapserons and no power it settles to the runway
around 30 mph. I beleive they were about half the price of certified
aircraft VG's. They also used my Cessna 120 for the STC on their VG's. It
lowered my stall speed 6 mph with full aileron control in a stall. It gave
it about 25 - 30% better aileron control. They will be going on my Rebel
after I get her flying!

Curtis

175R

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[Curtis Langholz]

Ross,

Your welcome! I'm new to this site and am very thankfull for the answers and pictures I have gotten from the other Rebel guys!! Thanks to everyone!

Curtis

175R

From: Ross.Miller@gdit.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:11:53 -0400
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Vortex generators

Thanks Curtis. The responses I've received have all been positive and I am definitely going to put them on my Moose when I get to that stage.




----- Original Message -----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: REBEL BUILDERS <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thu Jun 10 10:01:30 2010
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Vortex generators


My friend Chuck -176R (225PC) has VG's on his Rebel. He got them from Micro Aerodynamics in Aberdeen, Washington. With both of us in this Rebel it stalled at 36 mph with no power it was settling with a little nose high attitude. Solo he said with flapserons and no power it settles to the runway around 30 mph. I beleive they were about half the price of certified aircraft VG's. They also used my Cessna 120 for the STC on their VG's. It lowered my stall speed 6 mph with full aileron control in a stall. It gave it about 25 - 30% better aileron control. They will be going on my Rebel after I get her flying!

Curtis

175R

From: cws1932@cox.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Vortex generators
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 13:08:06 -0500

I think I posted this info some time ago - but maybe not. I put VG's on my SR-2500 (wings & horizontal stab) some months ago and found they made a remarkable difference. Prior to install, I found that I could run out of elevator during 3 point landings unless there was an aft cg. Power off stalls are practically a non-event. It simply will finally show a 500-700 fpm descent with no fall off on a wing. With power or flaps there is a break, but little fall off of a wing. Ailerons are actually somewhat effective even in a full stall. Seems to make ailerons more effective during normal flight, also.

I used the Hall Brothers VG's (double posted verticals) which are considerably less expensive than some others. They (on wings) are installed in the 10% - 12% of chord range (actually behind a stringer rivet line at about 11.2%). I experimented with several different placements and found that it is not as critical as some have stated. Very easy to install with the supplied epoxy or with the type used for granite counter tops. I believe it would take dynamite to get one off.

Only adverse effect (if you want to call it that) is that unless on speed for landings, it really tends to float - won't stall!

Charlie Starr - N96CS



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[Ron Shannon]

Thanks.

The performance changes with VG's have been discussed frequently here,
including a lengthy thread just a few months ago. If you search the message
archives for "VG" you'll get a bushel full of data and opinions, on all
brands and placements.

Ron
254R


On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Curtis Langholz <c120pilot@hotmail.com>wrote:

Ron,

I beleive he followed their pattern behind the first rivet line. I called
him and he is going to send a picture to me.

What kind of results to others get with different placement of the VG's?
On my Cessna 120 they were close to the leading edge also but were smaller
in size then the ones for the Rebels. After having them on the 120 I plan
on putting them on any other plane I own. They really made it a safer plane
to land due to the full aileron control in a stall without getting into a
spin, even trying to in cross control stall it would not drop a wing.

Curtis

175R

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