Baffles

[Walter Klatt]

Hmmm, I will have to take a look. Not sure if I can get
a hand in there, though, even from the left side. Will
probably go down to the hangar tomorrow, so will at the
least see what might be possible.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 3:17 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: baffles


Maybe you can temporarily duct tape a hunk
of carboard, or similar, down the
center and then reach in through the larger
side to put some duct tape
between the cardboard and the cowl top and
go for a ride. See if it helps
and then bother to build the real thing if
it does!??!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 6:06 PM
Subject: RE: baffles

OK, I get it now. Never heard of that one, though.

The concern on mine might be that the right side
opening is tighter because the #1 cylinder

is closer to

the front, and that is also the side where my oil
cooler is. So if the sides then work

independently, my

left side would get more air than the

right side, which

is where my hot #3 cylinder is. With it open in the
middle, I was counting on some of the air

from the left

also making it over to the right. If my

oil cooler was

on the left, I could see this being worth a try.

Interesting theory though, and maybe this

is something

for Bruce G to try and let us know how it works.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 2:04 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: baffles


Drew would be talking about a straight piece
from your front baffle back to
the accessory case, bolted on using a couple
of top case bolts down the
center, with baffle seal along the top. This
keeps air from mixing from side
to side. My UTVA's have this down the center
of the GSO-480's.

Happy "Gobble Gobble" Canadians,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 3:31 PM
Subject: RE: baffles

front to back plenum? For me cowl. The and I think you

curves on the top

beyond my metal temps, as the right baffle. keep the temps with my #3 CHT

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[Drew Dalgleish]

At 07:26 PM 10/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:

Yup, that's basically it. It's not the prettiest, but
at least is marginally acceptable now. That lexan
eyebrow on the left inlet helped, too. I flew in the
hottest weather this summer, and lots of long, hard,
heavily loaded climbs over the mountains, and it did
work. However, I would still like to cool it about 20
more degrees if I could. But without enlarging the
inlets, there is nothing more that I know to try. I
have already done what's been discussed here and more.
And yes, after about the 4th enlargement, it was that
big hole that helped the most.

Walter

Heres a couple more things for you to try Walter. There used to by a cessna
aerobat at centralia that the AME owner did a whole bunch of cooling tricks
to. One of the things he did that he claimed made a huge difference was
install a baffle from front to back along the top of the engine case. His
theory was that it reduced the turbulance on top of the engine and allowed
the air to flow smoothly through the cylinders. It must have worked because
he kept reducing the inlet size until it's now only about 2"high. Kind of
the same idea as smoothing the outlet with an aluminum wrap at the bottom
of the firewall.
On my plane I saw significantly reduced temps by using header tape to wrap
my exhaust. Bob P. Hates the stuff but I just did my annual and after 4
years 250hrs. there's no visible deterioration on either the old piper
cross-over exhaust I used or the mild steel extension pipes that replace
the piper muffler. With a new oil cooler installed this summer when I
changed my plane over to floats the highest oil temperature I've seen is
190 degrees. That was after a long full power climb on a 30 degree day.
Usually my temps are under 180*
Drew Dalgleish




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[Walter Klatt]

I had the lower raps from day one, on the front
cylinders, too. I have done all the items in your list,
and a few more. I don't think I will try that centre
divider either, but will have a look. I think larger
inlets will be my next step. No rush right now, as this
time of year, it runs pretty cool, around 350 - 375.
But would like to have it a bit cooler when next summer
comes around.

Ditto on the Murphy gang. I think they have just come
through a very busy summer, with the new Bombardier
plane, and getting their pre-builts out.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 5:25 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: baffles


Walter, I have the same situation with the
3" scat tube for the oil cooler
being connected to the right rear baffle. I
don't have an oil cooling problem
either but don't see me doing a center baffle.

Did you modify the rear MAM baffles to have
the lower cylinder raps that were
not included in the original patterns, as
discussed earlier? I think that is
something I would do this winter while you
have it apart.

A list of the extra efforts I have made to
lower temps are;

1. Modifying rear baffle patterns to include
lower cylinder raps
2. Enlarge exit air to 150% if intake, with
angled flange to accelerate air
flow
3. Aluminum rap for lower firewall
4. Contour inside of upper air intakes
5. Installed a forward engine baffle
6. Sealed carb air intake better (today).

And of course sealed my baffles to the
engine with hi temp silicone. I can't
imagine any thing else I might have missed
barring enlarging the intakes,
which is something I would do if I did it again.

Just a note with all the MAM bashing we have
been doing lately. This is still
a great designed airplane and I really like
the way it handles, flies and
performs. It is very versatile and I
wouldn't hesitate to build one again. I
know the manual leaves something to be
desired but the construction was pretty
straight forward. Skystars's Kitfox manual
was not that great either.

It helps to have a general knowledge of
aircraft building techniques that can
only be learned with a lot of study and
reading of the appropriate literature
and of course hands on experience. This was
my greatest assistance to me in
construction along with the list server and
A&P friends or counselors if you
have them.

MAM has continued to support their planes,
although at a snails pace
sometimes and they have proven to be a
successful company that will be around for a
while. They haven't taken peoples money and
stopped delivering kits like some
manufactures have done. (I know I hear you
Wayne, but I think MAM's good for the
remainder of your float inventory. They did
eventually send me everything but
the fluid tank).

It's easy to get frustrated while building
and vent it on the manufacturer.
We all like to be critics and have a better
way (our way) of doing things.
That's just our nature as pilots and
builders. We are a special bread. We think
this way and often can't help ourselves.

I think most of the bugs have been worked
out. We now have a proven craft
with all the mods and fixes that have been
added to this design over the
evolution of this plane, by Wayne, Bobp, and
ALL of the builders.

I'm having fun!
Just my 2 cents.

Bruce G 357R



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Drew would be talking about a straight piece from your front baffle back to
the accessory case, bolted on using a couple of top case bolts down the
center, with baffle seal along the top. This keeps air from mixing from side
to side. My UTVA's have this down the center of the GSO-480's.

Happy "Gobble Gobble" Canadians,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 3:31 PM
Subject: RE: baffles

Drew, when you say install a baffle from front to back
on top of the engine, do mean a closed plenum? For me
that would be a little difficult with this cowl. The
fibreglass cowl is pretty tight on top, and I think you
would need to fabricate compound curves on the top
piece to make it fit. That's a little beyond my metal
skills.

In my case, I have no problems with oil temps, as the
oil cooler is attached to the rear of my right baffle.
In fact, I have to close off air flow to keep the temps
up. It's my rear cylinders that get hot, with my #3 CHT
being the highest.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Drew Dalgleish
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 10:31 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: baffles

Heres a couple more things for you to try
Walter. There used to by a cessna
aerobat at centralia that the AME owner did
a whole bunch of cooling tricks
to. One of the things he did that he claimed
made a huge difference was
install a baffle from front to back along
the top of the engine case. His
theory was that it reduced the turbulance on
top of the engine and allowed
the air to flow smoothly through the
cylinders. It must have worked because
he kept reducing the inlet size until it's
now only about 2"high. Kind of
the same idea as smoothing the outlet with
an aluminum wrap at the bottom
of the firewall.
On my plane I saw significantly reduced
temps by using header tape to wrap
my exhaust. Bob P. Hates the stuff but I
just did my annual and after 4
years 250hrs. there's no visible
deterioration on either the old piper
cross-over exhaust I used or the mild steel
extension pipes that replace
the piper muffler. With a new oil cooler
installed this summer when I
changed my plane over to floats the highest
oil temperature I've seen is
190 degrees. That was after a long full
power climb on a 30 degree day.
Usually my temps are under 180*
Drew Dalgleish




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Maybe you can temporarily duct tape a hunk of carboard, or similar, down the
center and then reach in through the larger side to put some duct tape
between the cardboard and the cowl top and go for a ride. See if it helps
and then bother to build the real thing if it does!??!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 6:06 PM
Subject: RE: baffles

OK, I get it now. Never heard of that one, though.

The concern on mine might be that the right side
opening is tighter because the #1 cylinder is closer to
the front, and that is also the side where my oil
cooler is. So if the sides then work independently, my
left side would get more air than the right side, which
is where my hot #3 cylinder is. With it open in the
middle, I was counting on some of the air from the left
also making it over to the right. If my oil cooler was
on the left, I could see this being worth a try.

Interesting theory though, and maybe this is something
for Bruce G to try and let us know how it works.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 2:04 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: baffles


Drew would be talking about a straight piece
from your front baffle back to
the accessory case, bolted on using a couple
of top case bolts down the
center, with baffle seal along the top. This
keeps air from mixing from side
to side. My UTVA's have this down the center
of the GSO-480's.

Happy "Gobble Gobble" Canadians,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 3:31 PM
Subject: RE: baffles

Drew, when you say install a baffle from

front to back

on top of the engine, do mean a closed

plenum? For me

that would be a little difficult with this

cowl. The

fibreglass cowl is pretty tight on top,

and I think you

would need to fabricate compound curves on the top
piece to make it fit. That's a little

beyond my metal

skills.

In my case, I have no problems with oil

temps, as the

oil cooler is attached to the rear of my

right baffle.

In fact, I have to close off air flow to

keep the temps

up. It's my rear cylinders that get hot,

with my #3 CHT

being the highest.

Walter

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[Legeorgen]

Walter, I have the same situation with the 3" scat tube for the oil cooler
being connected to the right rear baffle. I don't have an oil cooling problem
either but don't see me doing a center baffle.

Did you modify the rear MAM baffles to have the lower cylinder raps that were
not included in the original patterns, as discussed earlier? I think that is
something I would do this winter while you have it apart.

A list of the extra efforts I have made to lower temps are;

1. Modifying rear baffle patterns to include lower cylinder raps
2. Enlarge exit air to 150% if intake, with angled flange to accelerate air
flow
3. Aluminum rap for lower firewall
4. Contour inside of upper air intakes
5. Installed a forward engine baffle
6. Sealed carb air intake better (today).

And of course sealed my baffles to the engine with hi temp silicone. I can't
imagine any thing else I might have missed barring enlarging the intakes,
which is something I would do if I did it again.

Just a note with all the MAM bashing we have been doing lately. This is still
a great designed airplane and I really like the way it handles, flies and
performs. It is very versatile and I wouldn't hesitate to build one again. I
know the manual leaves something to be desired but the construction was pretty
straight forward. Skystars's Kitfox manual was not that great either.

It helps to have a general knowledge of aircraft building techniques that can
only be learned with a lot of study and reading of the appropriate literature
and of course hands on experience. This was my greatest assistance to me in
construction along with the list server and A&P friends or counselors if you
have them.

MAM has continued to support their planes, although at a snails pace
sometimes and they have proven to be a successful company that will be around for a
while. They haven't taken peoples money and stopped delivering kits like some
manufactures have done. (I know I hear you Wayne, but I think MAM's good for the
remainder of your float inventory. They did eventually send me everything but
the fluid tank).

It's easy to get frustrated while building and vent it on the manufacturer.
We all like to be critics and have a better way (our way) of doing things.
That's just our nature as pilots and builders. We are a special bread. We think
this way and often can't help ourselves.

I think most of the bugs have been worked out. We now have a proven craft
with all the mods and fixes that have been added to this design over the
evolution of this plane, by Wayne, Bobp, and ALL of the builders.

I'm having fun!
Just my 2 cents.

Bruce G 357R



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[Bob Patterson]

Thanks Bruce !

I totally agree ! I've flown a lot of different airplanes
since 1957, and I haven't found anything else that will do all the
things a Rebel can do, and do safely !! Or a Renegade, Maverick,
or Super Rebel/Moose !!!

No airplane is perfect, but I think anyone who has done
the mods suggested in this list should have a very good aircraft
that will last them for years of happy flying. We all should be
very thankful that we have the Amateur Built/ Experimental category
of licencing that ALLOWS us to improve an already good design to
suit our purposes !! Pity the poor souls who are stuck with
Certified aircraft - pay (and pay) <somebody else> to fix things that keep
breaking, just as they have for over 50 years .... and NO hope of
fixing it right (welllll, MAYBE - if you can spend LOTS of $$$,$$$ ...).

I'm sure that as we get more flying hours in all the Murphy
kits, we'll be getting more feedback on areas to watch, and the
kits will just keep getting better !! They are already TERRIFIC
value - certainly worth your time and effort !!!

Keep building guys - it IS worth it !! :-) :-)

......bobp
--------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 08:25 PM 10/11/03 EDT, you wrote:

Walter, I have the same situation with the 3" scat tube for the oil cooler
being connected to the right rear baffle. I don't have an oil cooling problem
either but don't see me doing a center baffle.

Did you modify the rear MAM baffles to have the lower cylinder raps that were
not included in the original patterns, as discussed earlier? I think that is
something I would do this winter while you have it apart.

A list of the extra efforts I have made to lower temps are;

1. Modifying rear baffle patterns to include lower cylinder raps
2. Enlarge exit air to 150% if intake, with angled flange to accelerate air
flow
3. Aluminum rap for lower firewall
4. Contour inside of upper air intakes
5. Installed a forward engine baffle
6. Sealed carb air intake better (today).

And of course sealed my baffles to the engine with hi temp silicone. I can't
imagine any thing else I might have missed barring enlarging the intakes,
which is something I would do if I did it again.

Just a note with all the MAM bashing we have been doing lately. This is still
a great designed airplane and I really like the way it handles, flies and
performs. It is very versatile and I wouldn't hesitate to build one again. I
know the manual leaves something to be desired but the construction was pretty
straight forward. Skystars's Kitfox manual was not that great either.

It helps to have a general knowledge of aircraft building techniques that can
only be learned with a lot of study and reading of the appropriate literature
and of course hands on experience. This was my greatest assistance to me in
construction along with the list server and A&P friends or counselors if you
have them.

MAM has continued to support their planes, although at a snails pace
sometimes and they have proven to be a successful company that will be

around for a

while. They haven't taken peoples money and stopped delivering kits like some
manufactures have done. (I know I hear you Wayne, but I think MAM's good

for the

remainder of your float inventory. They did eventually send me everything but
the fluid tank).

It's easy to get frustrated while building and vent it on the manufacturer.
We all like to be critics and have a better way (our way) of doing things.
That's just our nature as pilots and builders. We are a special bread. We

think

this way and often can't help ourselves.

I think most of the bugs have been worked out. We now have a proven craft
with all the mods and fixes that have been added to this design over the
evolution of this plane, by Wayne, Bobp, and ALL of the builders.

I'm having fun!
Just my 2 cents.

Bruce G 357R



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[Mike Betti]

Hi all,
Does the Vans baffle kit work with the 0360 in an Elite with the fiberglass cowl?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E



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