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Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

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LisaFly99

Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Post by LisaFly99 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm

In a message dated 10/6/02 10:15:24 PM Central Daylight Time, allsure@iprimus.com.au writes:

Is there any general rule of thumb that I could use to work out the ratio of inlet vs outlet dimensions. I have not seen a cowl for a Locoing but the inlets appear similar sizes.
Could the inlets be too big?
IAN
In general I've heard 1.7 exit minimum larger than inlet.

Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R

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Ian Donaldson

Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Post by Ian Donaldson » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm

G'day Phil

That's interesting.

Even after cutting out the bottom of the cowl I don't think that I have approached 1:1

Something more to think about!

Regards


Ian Donaldson
Is there any general rule of thumb that I could use to work out the ratio of inlet vs outlet dimensions. I have not seen a cowl for a Locoing but the inlets appear similar sizes.
Could the inlets be too big?
IAN
In general I've heard 1.7 exit minimum larger than inlet.

Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R

Rick Harper

Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Post by Rick Harper » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm

G'day Ian ...

Tony Bingelis said a ratio of 2:3 ie 100 square inches of inlet & 150 square inches of outlet was a safe rule

Rick & Wendy
----- Original Message -----
From: LisaFly99@aol.com (LisaFly99@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air


In a message dated 10/6/02 10:15:24 PM Central Daylight Time, allsure@iprimus.com.au (allsure@iprimus.com.au) writes:

Is there any general rule of thumb that I could use to work out the ratio of inlet vs outlet dimensions. I have not seen a cowl for a Locoing but the inlets appear similar sizes.
Could the inlets be too big?
IAN
In general I've heard 1.7 exit minimum larger than inlet.

Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R

Ian Donaldson

Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Post by Ian Donaldson » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm

G'day Rick,Curt & Drew.

Thanks for the information. Armed with those facts I should be able to sort the thing out.

I just wonder whether the formulae apply only to air cooled engines. The Rotax that I am using has water cooled heads and air cooled barrels, and just maybe it does not need as much air flow.

I will try Curt's suggestion and try to tidy up the firewall area to get a smooth exit for the air.

And Curt the Rebel sure is nice to fly!


Regards

Ian Donaldson

G'day Ian ...

Tony Bingelis said a ratio of 2:3 ie 100 square inches of inlet & 150 square inches of outlet was a safe rule

Rick & Wendy
N414D
#460R

Drew Dalgleish

Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm

Hi Ian
Tony was just writing about air cooled engines but I think the formula
should still apply because the total amount of heat to be removed is the same.
Drew

At 10:08 PM 10/9/2002 +1000, you wrote:
& Drew. Armed with those facts I should be able to sort the thing
out. has water cooled heads and air cooled barrels, and just maybe it
does not need as much air flow. I will try Curt's suggestion and try to
tidy up the firewall area to get a smooth exit for the air. And Curt the
Rebel sure is nice to fly! Regards Ian Donaldson G'day Ian ...
& 150 square inches of outlet was a safe rule & Wendy
N414D
#460R

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Ian Donaldson

Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Post by Ian Donaldson » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm

G'day Drew

You can see that I never thought things through!

In your last email you suggested that the inlets should be 3" x 6" times
two. Do you think that
that area would include the openings for the oil cooler and water radiator?

What I am trying to establish is to whether I have more entry air than I
need. If the entry area was
reduced there would not be such a problem getting the hot air out.


Regards

Ian Donaldson

Hi Ian
Tony was just writing about air cooled engines but I think the formula
should still apply because the total amount of heat to be removed is the
same.
Drew



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Drew Dalgleish

Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm

Hi Ian
I'm just passing on what I read in Tony Bingeliss' book. I belive he was
talking about the total area. When I was trying to get more air out of my
cowling I made a lip for the bottom of the cowling with cardboard and duct
tape to see if it would help. Maybe you could temporarily block part of
your inlet to see if it helps. That way you could reduce it a little at a
time to find the optimum size instead of reworking your cowl and finding it
didn't help. Good Luck
Drew

At 11:20 PM 10/10/2002 +1000, you wrote:
G'day Drew

You can see that I never thought things through!

In your last email you suggested that the inlets should be 3" x 6" times
two. Do you think that
that area would include the openings for the oil cooler and water radiator?

What I am trying to establish is to whether I have more entry air than I
need. If the entry area was
reduced there would not be such a problem getting the hot air out.


Regards

Ian Donaldson

Hi Ian
Tony was just writing about air cooled engines but I think the formula
should still apply because the total amount of heat to be removed is the
same.
Drew

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klehman

Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Post by klehman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm

Hi Ian

I thought I'd throw a little theory at you. Theory can't hurt when you
don't have a successful model to copy. As always I defer to any pratical
experience that others may offer.

My understanding is that simply reducing the intake area can not
possibly increase cooling unless it is done in such a way to capture
additional air. Air does love to bypass intakes and reverse back out
again, but just reducing the size of the intake is not likely to help
that. The reason for minimizing intake area is to reduce drag. The
guidelines for intake to exhaust area are also intended to minimize
drag.

The longer story is that you can't really force 100mph air through a
radiator. The pressure drop would be much higher than what is available.
The airflow through the core will likely be much less than half that
speed regardless of what the intake and exhaust look like. Therefore one
can aim for a small air intake that opens (gradually if possible) into a
plenum. The air slows in the plenum and the pressure increases. The air
pressure then drops as it flows past the rad. Ideally the air then
converges in another duct where it speeds up again hopefully exiting at
close to ambient pressure and speed.

So you need at least several inches of duct between the intake and the
rad to get any improvement at all (preferably more like a foot or
more). Adding an inch simply won't make any difference.

It sounds like you really only have the exit to play with. Again try to
arrange it so that the air smoothly accelerates without any sharp
corners like at the bottom of the firewall. Exhaust parallel to the
fuselage as much as possible. Exhaust air will not exhaust with any
significant downward velocity unless you have a large high drag lip that
causes many times higher drag than necessary. Even then the exhaust will
be turbulent slow vortices rather than smooth and fast. A cowl that
drops a couple of inches lower than the fuselage bottom is preferable to
a large lip. If you have to have a large lip to make things work you
could try a moveable cowl flap if you want to cruise a few MPH faster.

Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:
Hi Ian
I'm just passing on what I read in Tony Bingeliss' book. I belive he was
talking about the total area. When I was trying to get more air out of my
cowling I made a lip for the bottom of the cowling with cardboard and duct
tape to see if it would help. Maybe you could temporarily block part of
your inlet to see if it helps. That way you could reduce it a little at a
time to find the optimum size instead of reworking your cowl and finding it
didn't help. Good Luck
Drew

At 11:20 PM 10/10/2002 +1000, you wrote:
G'day Drew

You can see that I never thought things through!

In your last email you suggested that the inlets should be 3" x 6" times
two. Do you think that
that area would include the openings for the oil cooler and water radiator?

What I am trying to establish is to whether I have more entry air than I
need. If the entry area was
reduced there would not be such a problem getting the hot air out.


Regards


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Walter Klatt

Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Post by Walter Klatt » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm

Is it possible to make your outlet too big, thus
causing turbulence and poorer air flow out the exit?

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
[mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
klehman
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:24 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air


Hi Ian

I thought I'd throw a little theory at you. Theory
can't hurt when you
don't have a successful model to copy. As always I
defer to any pratical
experience that others may offer.

My understanding is that simply reducing the intake
area can not
possibly increase cooling unless it is done in such a
way to capture
additional air. Air does love to bypass intakes and
reverse back out
again, but just reducing the size of the intake is not
likely to help
that. The reason for minimizing intake area is to
reduce drag. The
guidelines for intake to exhaust area are also intended
to minimize
drag.

The longer story is that you can't really force 100mph
air through a
radiator. The pressure drop would be much higher than
what is available.
The airflow through the core will likely be much less
than half that
speed regardless of what the intake and exhaust look
like. Therefore one
can aim for a small air intake that opens (gradually if
possible) into a
plenum. The air slows in the plenum and the pressure
increases. The air
pressure then drops as it flows past the rad. Ideally
the air then
converges in another duct where it speeds up again
hopefully exiting at
close to ambient pressure and speed.

So you need at least several inches of duct between the
intake and the
rad to get any improvement at all (preferably more like
a foot or
more). Adding an inch simply won't make any
difference.

It sounds like you really only have the exit to play
with. Again try to
arrange it so that the air smoothly accelerates without
any sharp
corners like at the bottom of the firewall. Exhaust
parallel to the
fuselage as much as possible. Exhaust air will not
exhaust with any
significant downward velocity unless you have a large
high drag lip that
causes many times higher drag than necessary. Even then
the exhaust will
be turbulent slow vortices rather than smooth and fast.
A cowl that
drops a couple of inches lower than the fuselage bottom
is preferable to
a large lip. If you have to have a large lip to make
things work you
could try a moveable cowl flap if you want to cruise a
few MPH faster.

Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:
Hi Ian
I'm just passing on what I read in Tony Bingeliss'
book. I belive he was
talking about the total area. When I was trying to
get more air out of my
cowling I made a lip for the bottom of the cowling
with cardboard and duct
tape to see if it would help. Maybe you could
temporarily block part of
your inlet to see if it helps. That way you could
reduce it a little at a
time to find the optimum size instead of reworking
your cowl and finding it
didn't help. Good Luck
Drew

At 11:20 PM 10/10/2002 +1000, you wrote:
G'day Drew

You can see that I never thought things through!

In your last email you suggested that the inlets
should be 3" x 6" times
two. Do you think that
that area would include the openings for the oil
cooler and water radiator?
What I am trying to establish is to whether I have
more entry air than I
need. If the entry area was
reduced there would not be such a problem getting
the hot air out.

Regards
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klehman

Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Post by klehman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm

Hmmm I don't really know. I can think of some extreme cases (for outlets
and inlets) where I think that is possible. Certainly Hanging a radiator
vertically below the fuselage doesn't work very well because most air
just goes around it. Ducts the size of the rad probably wouldn't help.
But for our purposes and for reasonable sized installations I would
guess that it is mostly just going to create a lot of extra drag. I've
never heard of a situation where too far open cowl flaps reduced
cooling.
Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:
Is it possible to make your outlet too big, thus
causing turbulence and poorer air flow out the exit?

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
[mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
klehman
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:24 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Hi Ian

I thought I'd throw a little theory at you. Theory
can't hurt when you
don't have a successful model to copy. As always I
defer to any pratical
experience that others may offer.

My understanding is that simply reducing the intake
area can not
possibly increase cooling unless it is done in such a
way to capture
additional air. Air does love to bypass intakes and
reverse back out
again, but just reducing the size of the intake is not
likely to help
that. The reason for minimizing intake area is to
reduce drag. The
guidelines for intake to exhaust area are also intended
to minimize
drag.

The longer story is that you can't really force 100mph
air through a
radiator. The pressure drop would be much higher than
what is available.
The airflow through the core will likely be much less
than half that
speed regardless of what the intake and exhaust look
like. Therefore one
can aim for a small air intake that opens (gradually if
possible) into a
plenum. The air slows in the plenum and the pressure
increases. The air
pressure then drops as it flows past the rad. Ideally
the air then
converges in another duct where it speeds up again
hopefully exiting at
close to ambient pressure and speed.

So you need at least several inches of duct between the
intake and the
rad to get any improvement at all (preferably more like
a foot or
more). Adding an inch simply won't make any
difference.

It sounds like you really only have the exit to play
with. Again try to
arrange it so that the air smoothly accelerates without
any sharp
corners like at the bottom of the firewall. Exhaust
parallel to the
fuselage as much as possible. Exhaust air will not
exhaust with any
significant downward velocity unless you have a large
high drag lip that
causes many times higher drag than necessary. Even then
the exhaust will
be turbulent slow vortices rather than smooth and fast.
A cowl that
drops a couple of inches lower than the fuselage bottom
is preferable to
a large lip. If you have to have a large lip to make
things work you
could try a moveable cowl flap if you want to cruise a
few MPH faster.

Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:
Hi Ian
I'm just passing on what I read in Tony Bingeliss'
book. I belive he was
talking about the total area. When I was trying to
get more air out of my
cowling I made a lip for the bottom of the cowling
with cardboard and duct
tape to see if it would help. Maybe you could
temporarily block part of
your inlet to see if it helps. That way you could
reduce it a little at a
time to find the optimum size instead of reworking
your cowl and finding it
didn't help. Good Luck
Drew

At 11:20 PM 10/10/2002 +1000, you wrote:
G'day Drew

You can see that I never thought things through!

In your last email you suggested that the inlets
should be 3" x 6" times
two. Do you think that
that area would include the openings for the oil
cooler and water radiator?
What I am trying to establish is to whether I have
more entry air than I
need. If the entry area was
reduced there would not be such a problem getting
the hot air out.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Ian Donaldson

Rotax 912 oil cooler exit air

Post by Ian Donaldson » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm

G'day Ken


That theory did make interesting reading. As you say theory won't hurt!

Now I think that I will go with tidying up the exit and see what difference
that makes.

I just occurred to me that perhaps I could duct some fresh air from the
inlet and have
it blow directly on the oil bottle that is situated at the rear of the cowl.
May help!


Now just if I could just get some off work to get to the hangar......


Regards

Ian Donaldson

Hi Ian

I thought I'd throw a little theory at you. Theory can't hurt when you
don't have a successful model to copy. As always I defer to any pratical
experience that others may offer.

My understanding is that simply reducing the intake area can not
possibly increase cooling unless it is done in such a way to capture
additional air. Air does love to bypass intakes and reverse back out
again, but just reducing the size of the intake is not likely to help
that. The reason for minimizing intake area is to reduce drag. The
guidelines for intake to exhaust area are also intended to minimize
drag.

The longer story is that you can't really force 100mph air through a
radiator. The pressure drop would be much higher than what is available.
The airflow through the core will likely be much less than half that
speed regardless of what the intake and exhaust look like. Therefore one
can aim for a small air intake that opens (gradually if possible) into a
plenum. The air slows in the plenum and the pressure increases. The air
pressure then drops as it flows past the rad. Ideally the air then
converges in another duct where it speeds up again hopefully exiting at
close to ambient pressure and speed.

So you need at least several inches of duct between the intake and the
rad to get any improvement at all (preferably more like a foot or
more). Adding an inch simply won't make any difference.

It sounds like you really only have the exit to play with. Again try to
arrange it so that the air smoothly accelerates without any sharp
corners like at the bottom of the firewall. Exhaust parallel to the
fuselage as much as possible. Exhaust air will not exhaust with any
significant downward velocity unless you have a large high drag lip that
causes many times higher drag than necessary. Even then the exhaust will
be turbulent slow vortices rather than smooth and fast. A cowl that
drops a couple of inches lower than the fuselage bottom is preferable to
a large lip. If you have to have a large lip to make things work you
could try a moveable cowl flap if you want to cruise a few MPH faster.

Ken


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