.Re: strengthening cabin/firewall

[Mike Davis]

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Just a note on Bob's email.

The 'old stuff' was 0.020" not 0.015".

And yes I have asked the factory about an extra row of rivets or a different
size or type of rivet on the entire door post considering all the attention
that it is getting lately but have not heard back as of yet. I do not mean
this as criticism, I just assume from Alister's note that they are looking
at
the whole picture and will come back with some answers. Considering the
stage
that I am at I am not sure I want to hear what some of the fixes will be.
Probably alot of work and it will not be pretty.

Brian #328R



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[Mike Davis]

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Regardless of what stage, better to fix it now and have it done than to have
to do
it later, and later, and later, a little fix at a time. I have repainted
portions
of my airplane 4 times fixing things that are now part of the manual.
Consider
yourself lucky to have a company that will acknowlegdge the need for change.

Dave Bangle


RebelAir@aol.com wrote:

Just a note on Bob's email.

The 'old stuff' was 0.020" not 0.015".

And yes I have asked the factory about an extra row of rivets or a

different

size or type of rivet on the entire door post considering all the

attention

that it is getting lately but have not heard back as of yet. I do not

mean

this as criticism, I just assume from Alister's note that they are looking

at

the whole picture and will come back with some answers. Considering the

stage

that I am at I am not sure I want to hear what some of the fixes will be.
Probably alot of work and it will not be pretty.

Brian #328R

[Mike Davis]

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Hi Dave

I agree completely with your thoughts and am thankful that MAM is looking
into
the problems and not pretending they are not there. I just don't want to do
6
months of upgrades as I would like to fly this thing in'99. But you are
right, it is better to fix it now before the paint is on. Sorry you had to
go
thru so many changes yourself. I have seen your Rebel many times and it
looks
great!

Best Regards

Brian

[Mike Davis]

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From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: .Re: strengthening cabin/firewall
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:14:36 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: subersys <subersys@nidlink.com>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, November 29, 1998 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: .Re: strengthening cabin/firewall

While Bob Patterson is a strong believer in the Stits epoxy that Murphy

sells as a

bonding agent, I have taken many parts that were put together wet and

riveted wet

as suggested by a lot of guys. All parts just fell apart. While a lot of

guys

may groan when they read this, consider Pro Seal. I Pro Sealed my entire

fusalage

Dave,
Did you thin the proseal at all? I've found that the stuff is so thick that
if you are not careful, you can get a little waivyness in the rivet line
because it don't squeeze out so good.

Joel

[Mike Davis]

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While Bob Patterson is a strong believer in the Stits epoxy that Murphy
sells as a
bonding agent, I have taken many parts that were put together wet and
riveted wet
as suggested by a lot of guys. All parts just fell apart. While a lot of
guys
may groan when they read this, consider Pro Seal. I Pro Sealed my entire
fusalage
together and have never had a drop of water in the cabin anywhere. Also,
when I
took the rivets out of the areas that had to be replaced, there was just no
way to
get the parts that had been prosealed apart. I would feel safe with just
the pro
seal it is that good a bonding agent. When putting the wings on the first
time,
one of the brackets was a little out of line so we drilled the rivets out to
straighten the bracket. Couldn't figure out why with a 2' long arm attached
to
the bracket with no rivets in it it was wrinkling the skins when tweeked.
Had to
run a hacksaw blade sharpened like a knife between the skins and bulkhead to
get
the proseal to let loose enough to move the bracket. Strong stuff and it
doesn' t
leak. I got the idea from Daryl when I went to pick up my kit. He showed
me some
of the samples of metal bonded together with different stuff and how strong
it
was. Cool stuff even if a devil to work with. Highly recommended.

Dave

RebelAir@aol.com wrote:

Hi Dave

I agree completely with your thoughts and am thankful that MAM is looking

into

the problems and not pretending they are not there. I just don't want to

do 6

months of upgrades as I would like to fly this thing in'99. But you are
right, it is better to fix it now before the paint is on. Sorry you had

to go

thru so many changes yourself. I have seen your Rebel many times and it

looks

great!

Best Regards

Brian

[Mike Davis]

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Hi Dave

Thanks very much for your thought on Proseal. I may use that idea if I get
into a bind. I too have take Stits Epoxy Chromated parts apart, and, the
chromate offers quite low resistance regardless to how it was applied. As I
am sure you are aware, the Stits product is not sold as a bonding material,
but as a corrosion inhibitor. They make it out of epoxy I believe primarily
to stabilize the product from galvanic attack, and as well it needs to be
able
to cure. Solvent based material may never set if it was buried deep into
some
parts, hence the need to make the corrosion inhibitor an epoxy based
material. Mr Murphy would not have shipped us 25,000 rivets if the airplane
had not needed it.

Thanks again and hope to see you at Oshkosh next year.


Regards Brian

[Mike Davis]

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No, I used it full strength. I pulled the Pro Seal rivets by hand so I
could
pull them slow. That allowed the excess to leave. I also applied a very
thin
layer to one side only, usually the rib or bulkhead. I wish I would have
done
this with my wings. Extra peace of mind. When I drilled out the rivets to
replace the outboard top skin in the last 4 bays, the parts just fell apart
with
the epoxy. When I removed the skins that were really bad on the fus, the
parts
couldn't easily be pulled apart at all. Big difference in bond.
Dave

Joel Jacobs wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: subersys <subersys@nidlink.com>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, November 29, 1998 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: .Re: strengthening cabin/firewall

While Bob Patterson is a strong believer in the Stits epoxy that Murphy

sells as a

bonding agent, I have taken many parts that were put together wet and

riveted wet

as suggested by a lot of guys. All parts just fell apart. While a lot

of

guys

may groan when they read this, consider Pro Seal. I Pro Sealed my entire

fusalage

Dave,
Did you thin the proseal at all? I've found that the stuff is so thick

that

if you are not careful, you can get a little waivyness in the rivet line
because it don't squeeze out so good.

Joel

[Mike Davis]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: .Re: strengthening cabin/firewall
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:29:15 -0500


You can use the rivet gun to pull those rivets - just turn the air
pressure down to about 20 - 30 lb for the first pull. Crank it up after
you've pulled them ALL snug, and re-pull them to snap off. The EASY
way to do those fuel tank skins !!

I'm really puzzled at your experience with the lack of adhesion
with the epoxy - no surface prep (metal-sol wipe) ?? or has PolyFiber
changed
the formula ??? I have several years of gliding experience in mountain
wave & rotor turbulence, with climbs of over 15,000 feet, through fair
temperature extremes, in a Schreder RS-15. The wing skins on the RS-15
have NO rivets holding them to the structural foam ribs - just the
epoxy chromate !! And I'm still alive !!! There are many Schreder gliders
flying, as well as ALL American (& Grumman) Yankees, that rely only on the
epoxy to hold them together, and <I've> had a heck of a time separating
Rebel parts glued with the green epoxy - what's changed ??? !!

......bobp

----------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 04:03 PM 11/30/98 -0800, you wrote:

No, I used it full strength. I pulled the Pro Seal rivets by hand so I

could

pull them slow. That allowed the excess to leave. I also applied a very

thin

layer to one side only, usually the rib or bulkhead. I wish I would have

done

this with my wings. Extra peace of mind. When I drilled out the rivets to
replace the outboard top skin in the last 4 bays, the parts just fell apart

with

the epoxy. When I removed the skins that were really bad on the fus, the

parts

couldn't easily be pulled apart at all. Big difference in bond.
Dave

Joel Jacobs wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: subersys <subersys@nidlink.com>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, November 29, 1998 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: .Re: strengthening cabin/firewall

While Bob Patterson is a strong believer in the Stits epoxy that Murphy

sells as a

bonding agent, I have taken many parts that were put together wet and

riveted wet

as suggested by a lot of guys. All parts just fell apart. While a lot

of

guys

may groan when they read this, consider Pro Seal. I Pro Sealed my

entire

fusalage

Dave,
Did you thin the proseal at all? I've found that the stuff is so thick

that

if you are not careful, you can get a little waivyness in the rivet line
because it don't squeeze out so good.

Joel

[Mike Davis]

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From: "Fred Darnell" <fdarnell@vnet.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: .Re: strengthening cabin/firewall
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:03:20 -0500
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I have to add my $.02 here.

I've had results similar to Bob Patterson. Last week I had to remove some
hinges that had been chromated and clecoed to a spar. I removed the clecoes
to get a better alignment for the bolts that were to be used to hold the
hinges to the spar. I was quite surprised at the bond achieved with the
epoxy chromate. It had been set for about 3 days. I had to pry between the
hinges and apply a great deal of force to break them free. I don't know if
the bond lessens with time, but it seemed to be holding fine then. I clean
immediately before applying the epoxy chromate with acetone and a clean shop
towel, then rivet while wet. It occured to me at the time, that the force I
was applying was a force perpendicular to the mating surfaces (ie peeling
the parts apart). It seems to me that the forces acting on these parts
normally is in shear, or parallel to the mating surfaces. I think the bond
(in shear) would be many times greater.

I'd like to hear other opinions about this subject. Anyone else out there
care to share their experiences or thoughts?

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: .Re: strengthening cabin/firewall

You can use the rivet gun to pull those rivets - just turn the air
pressure down to about 20 - 30 lb for the first pull. Crank it up after
you've pulled them ALL snug, and re-pull them to snap off. The EASY
way to do those fuel tank skins !!

I'm really puzzled at your experience with the lack of adhesion
with the epoxy - no surface prep (metal-sol wipe) ?? or has PolyFiber

changed

the formula ??? I have several years of gliding experience in mountain
wave & rotor turbulence, with climbs of over 15,000 feet, through fair
temperature extremes, in a Schreder RS-15. The wing skins on the RS-15
have NO rivets holding them to the structural foam ribs - just the
epoxy chromate !! And I'm still alive !!! There are many Schreder gliders
flying, as well as ALL American (& Grumman) Yankees, that rely only on the
epoxy to hold them together, and <I've> had a heck of a time separating
Rebel parts glued with the green epoxy - what's changed ??? !!

......bobp

----------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 04:03 PM 11/30/98 -0800, you wrote:

No, I used it full strength. I pulled the Pro Seal rivets by hand so I

could

pull them slow. That allowed the excess to leave. I also applied a very

thin

layer to one side only, usually the rib or bulkhead. I wish I would have

done

this with my wings. Extra peace of mind. When I drilled out the rivets

to

replace the outboard top skin in the last 4 bays, the parts just fell

apart

with

the epoxy. When I removed the skins that were really bad on the fus, the

parts

couldn't easily be pulled apart at all. Big difference in bond.
Dave

Joel Jacobs wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: subersys <subersys@nidlink.com>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, November 29, 1998 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: .Re: strengthening cabin/firewall
sells as a riveted wet

of

guys

entire

fusalage

Dave,
Did you thin the proseal at all? I've found that the stuff is so thick

that

if you are not careful, you can get a little waivyness in the rivet line
because it don't squeeze out so good.

Joel

[Mike Davis]

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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:20:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Neil F Humphrey <neil@uwyo.edu>
Subject: Re: .Re: strengthening cabin/firewall
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Just to add my two bits worth, but I have had the same experience with the
epoxy cromate. Clean the surfaces, bond and then you get a noticable bond
but no real strength. Easy to pull apart. Maybe the surface prep is
critical?

Neil Humphrey rebel #370
307-766-2728 (fax- 307-766-6679)

Don't know Bob but in all the stuff I've pulled apart, the chromate didn't

do squat

in sticking parts together. All my surfaces I scotchbrite and clean.

Just didn't

stick......I see no corrosion if that helps. It works good for that.

Maybe the

Stits brand is different.

Dave

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