Canadian Inspections

[Dave Qualley]

When is a good time to have the pre-close inspection
done?

I have all my control surfaces, wings, tail, etc.
finished except for one skin. I'm confident that they
are ready to inspect.

But, how far along should the fuselage be? Will the
inspector want the fuel/brake lines, electrical wires
installed at that time? At the moment the structure
is complete, and the control cables are all
installed..

What I would like to do is get the fuselage out of the
shop, and bring the wings back in for closeup. Then
worry about the fuel lines etc once the wings are
attached.. I'd like to be able to do the inspection
all in one go to save money..

Dave Qualley
#057SR

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[klehman]

Dave
I had the inspection done when I was ready to rivet the inside floor
down. The inspector said he wasn't interested in seeing any control
cables or wiring until the final inspection. As per the rules, I had
nothing enclosed so that he could look at anything he wanted. Might be
different if you were planning to route cables under the floor.
Doing the entire precover inspection at once worked quite well for me.
Ken

Dave Qualley wrote:

When is a good time to have the pre-close inspection
done?

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[apat]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Subject: Re: Canadian Inspections


Hi Dave !

Gulp !! Most of the guys here have a pre-cover done early,
as soon as the tail parts are done. This way, you get to meet your
inspector & find how HE wants things done !! If you've got the
whole airplane done, and he doesn't like the way you de-burred,
or wants all the inside corners filed to a radius, or ......
well - you've got to take it apart & re-do it all !!!! :-(

Some inspectors have their own ideas !! Maybe that's not
right, but it IS reality !!

Better to spend the extra money and find out early if he's
happy. The consolation is that he may let you go much further
with completion IF he's satisfied with your work AND your attitude !
(Yes - attitude DEFINITELY counts on their ratings !! - if you try
to slip something by them, they'll REALLY go over EVERYTHING !!)
Best bet would be to request an inspection ASAP, and talk to
the inspector as to what he wants to see ..... Some will let
you finish everything in the fuse, except the floor, while
others have even let the floor go in.

Originally, the idea was to have a pre-cover on EACH section,
as it was completed - to correct any bad practices that might exist.
(of course, if things get really bad, you can request another
inspector ..... probably won't win you many points, though !)

Hope you can get one arranged soon - some areas have a
six - eight week lead time ! Hope things are a bit easier for
you out west than they are in some areas ...

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 02:03 PM 3/3/01 -0800, you wrote:

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When is a good time to have the pre-close inspection
done?

I have all my control surfaces, wings, tail, etc.
finished except for one skin. I'm confident that they
are ready to inspect.

But, how far along should the fuselage be? Will the
inspector want the fuel/brake lines, electrical wires
installed at that time? At the moment the structure
is complete, and the control cables are all
installed..

What I would like to do is get the fuselage out of the
shop, and bring the wings back in for closeup. Then
worry about the fuel lines etc once the wings are
attached.. I'd like to be able to do the inspection
all in one go to save money..

Dave Qualley
#057SR

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[David Ricker]

Dave

Good question, is there a specific criteria on the point at which the inspector must
look at things before the Fus is "completed"? I was thinking that for the most part
that the Fus could be essentially complete before inspection.

Bob has raised an interesting concern here about "early" inspections but there is a
way to reduce your risk on it and that is take advantage of the expertese of the tech
counsellor of your local EAA/RAA chapter. If your inspector is close by then they
can drop by when they are close to your shop otherwise you can arrange a convenient
time for a visit.

In the case where your inspector comes from a distance then treat them to supper and
make it a social visit as well. The tech counsellors come as part of the benefit of
being a chapter member and as such do not charge for their services. In fact they
must maintain currency (that is do inspections) to retain their status so I have
found ours to be quite happy to come and have a look. It is a great way to have
someone else experienced give you feedback on your workmanship.

In our case our offically designated (AIR/ABA/DABY) inspector is also a chapter
member so he is there for advice when necessary as well. I am sure discussing areas
of concern with him before hand will keep the inspection problems to a minimum.

Well, so much for my $.02

Dave R





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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Subject: Re: Canadian Inspections

Hi Dave !

Gulp !! Most of the guys here have a pre-cover done early,
as soon as the tail parts are done. This way, you get to meet your
inspector & find how HE wants things done !! If you've got the
whole airplane done, and he doesn't like the way you de-burred,
or wants all the inside corners filed to a radius, or ......
well - you've got to take it apart & re-do it all !!!! :-(

Some inspectors have their own ideas !! Maybe that's not
right, but it IS reality !!

Better to spend the extra money and find out early if he's
happy. The consolation is that he may let you go much further
with completion IF he's satisfied with your work AND your attitude !
(Yes - attitude DEFINITELY counts on their ratings !! - if you try
to slip something by them, they'll REALLY go over EVERYTHING !!)
Best bet would be to request an inspection ASAP, and talk to
the inspector as to what he wants to see ..... Some will let
you finish everything in the fuse, except the floor, while
others have even let the floor go in.

Originally, the idea was to have a pre-cover on EACH section,
as it was completed - to correct any bad practices that might exist.
(of course, if things get really bad, you can request another
inspector ..... probably won't win you many points, though !)

Hope you can get one arranged soon - some areas have a
six - eight week lead time ! Hope things are a bit easier for
you out west than they are in some areas ...

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 02:03 PM 3/3/01 -0800, you wrote:

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When is a good time to have the pre-close inspection
done?

I have all my control surfaces, wings, tail, etc.
finished except for one skin. I'm confident that they
are ready to inspect.

But, how far along should the fuselage be? Will the
inspector want the fuel/brake lines, electrical wires
installed at that time? At the moment the structure
is complete, and the control cables are all
installed..

What I would like to do is get the fuselage out of the
shop, and bring the wings back in for closeup. Then
worry about the fuel lines etc once the wings are
attached.. I'd like to be able to do the inspection
all in one go to save money..

Dave Qualley
#057SR

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--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada




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[apat]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Subject: Re: Canadian Inspections


Hi Dave !

Good suggestions ! FWIW, we ALWAYS recommend that new
builders get a pre-cover as soon as the CONTROLS are ready to close.
There <IS> a less-expensive 'sub-assembly' inspection available
specifically for this ...

Based on feedback from the inspectors, they REALLY prefer
to get involved early in the project. This gives them a chance to
advise & suggest sources and techniques - like better ways to
deburr, preferences in rounding ALL corners, etc. (They HAVE
found builders who DIDN'T want to BOTHER with deburring, believing
it was only cosmetic !!!!)

It's well worth the small extra cost to be sure you are
doing things that will satisfy <your> inspector - before you go and
build the whole aircraft using some incorrect technique !

As I mentioned, each inspector has some of his own ideas
and prejudices, and can INSIST, regardless of what advice you might
have received from other people ! We have some inspectors here
whose requirements are such that <Cessnas> would NOT pass THEIR
inspections - and they freely tell builders this !! Usually,
these are things like insisting on doors that can be opened from
outside by popping out the hinges - and placards to tell rescuers
how to do this ... (So much for preventing theft of your radios ! )
Generally, though, they only have your safety, and the longevity
of your airplane at heart, so it pays to get their input EARLY,
and FOLLOW IT !!

The inspectors are interested in more than just the
workmanship - they want to know what kind of person you are, and
your attitudes. A clean shop and proper documents and resource
manuals help a lot. (you are ALL supposed to have <ready access>
(at least) to the proper government publications ...) If they get
the feeling you are sloppy or trying to 'get by', they'll note
your file to be extra careful and check EVERYTHING !!

If you impress the inspector with a good safe attitude,
they have some leeway to let you go ahead and close up some parts
without them being there, as long as they can check them later
with a mirror & light .... Or they might even accept emailed
photos before closing something like the fuse floor .....
This can gain you some time.

These are only suggestions, and inspectors might well be
completely different elsewhere in the country .....
(and Your Mileage May Differ ;-) )

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 10:53 AM 3/4/01 -0400, you wrote:

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Dave

Good question, is there a specific criteria on the point at which the

inspector must

look at things before the Fus is "completed"? I was thinking that for the

most part

that the Fus could be essentially complete before inspection.

Bob has raised an interesting concern here about "early" inspections but

there is a

way to reduce your risk on it and that is take advantage of the expertese

of the tech

counsellor of your local EAA/RAA chapter. If your inspector is close by

then they

can drop by when they are close to your shop otherwise you can arrange a

convenient

time for a visit.

In the case where your inspector comes from a distance then treat them to

supper and

make it a social visit as well. The tech counsellors come as part of the

benefit of

being a chapter member and as such do not charge for their services. In

fact they

must maintain currency (that is do inspections) to retain their status so I

have

found ours to be quite happy to come and have a look. It is a great way to

have

someone else experienced give you feedback on your workmanship.

In our case our offically designated (AIR/ABA/DABY) inspector is also a chapter
member so he is there for advice when necessary as well. I am sure

discussing areas

of concern with him before hand will keep the inspection problems to a minimum.

Well, so much for my $.02

Dave R





APAT@ISTAR.CA wrote:

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Subject: Re: Canadian Inspections

Hi Dave !

Gulp !! Most of the guys here have a pre-cover done early,
as soon as the tail parts are done. This way, you get to meet your
inspector & find how HE wants things done !! If you've got the
whole airplane done, and he doesn't like the way you de-burred,
or wants all the inside corners filed to a radius, or ......
well - you've got to take it apart & re-do it all !!!! :-(

Some inspectors have their own ideas !! Maybe that's not
right, but it IS reality !!

Better to spend the extra money and find out early if he's
happy. The consolation is that he may let you go much further
with completion IF he's satisfied with your work AND your attitude !
(Yes - attitude DEFINITELY counts on their ratings !! - if you try
to slip something by them, they'll REALLY go over EVERYTHING !!)
Best bet would be to request an inspection ASAP, and talk to
the inspector as to what he wants to see ..... Some will let
you finish everything in the fuse, except the floor, while
others have even let the floor go in.

Originally, the idea was to have a pre-cover on EACH section,
as it was completed - to correct any bad practices that might exist.
(of course, if things get really bad, you can request another
inspector ..... probably won't win you many points, though !)

Hope you can get one arranged soon - some areas have a
six - eight week lead time ! Hope things are a bit easier for
you out west than they are in some areas ...

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 02:03 PM 3/3/01 -0800, you wrote:

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The list archives are located at:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
When is a good time to have the pre-close inspection
done?

I have all my control surfaces, wings, tail, etc.
finished except for one skin. I'm confident that they
are ready to inspect.

But, how far along should the fuselage be? Will the
inspector want the fuel/brake lines, electrical wires
installed at that time? At the moment the structure
is complete, and the control cables are all
installed..

What I would like to do is get the fuselage out of the
shop, and bring the wings back in for closeup. Then
worry about the fuel lines etc once the wings are
attached.. I'd like to be able to do the inspection
all in one go to save money..

Dave Qualley
#057SR

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--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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[Legeorgen]

Some time I wonder if you Canadian boys really benefit from these inspection
requirements. If all these inspectors have that much leeway with their
inspections, it doesn't seem like a very fare or equitable situation for all
builders.

Although Technical counselor inspections are recommended by the FAA the're
not mandatory. One can build an entire kit and take his chances with the
final FAA inspection for an airworthy certificate. After all it's your fanny!
I've seen some kits put together in the States that I would not fly in.
Frankly, I could not believe they even passed inspection. Now that's a scary
thought.

Bruce G



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[Drew and Jan]

Dave I think you should send RAA the money for inspection then they'll tell
you who your inspector will be. Phone him and ask the same question because
it seems every inspector has a different interpretation of the rules and
his opinion is the only one that matters. my.02
Drew

At 02:03 PM 3/3/01 -0800, you wrote:

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When is a good time to have the pre-close inspection
done?

I have all my control surfaces, wings, tail, etc.
finished except for one skin. I'm confident that they
are ready to inspect.

But, how far along should the fuselage be? Will the
inspector want the fuel/brake lines, electrical wires
installed at that time? At the moment the structure
is complete, and the control cables are all
installed..

What I would like to do is get the fuselage out of the
shop, and bring the wings back in for closeup. Then
worry about the fuel lines etc once the wings are
attached.. I'd like to be able to do the inspection
all in one go to save money..

Dave Qualley
#057SR

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[LisaFly99]

In a message dated 3/5/01 1:27:11 AM Central Standard Time, Legeorgen@cs.com
writes:

Some time I wonder if you Canadian boys really benefit from these inspection
requirements. If all these inspectors have that much leeway with their
inspections, it doesn't seem like a very fare or equitable situation for
all
builders.

BRUCE
The American FAA inspectors can be the same way, as different as night and
day.
You are better off hiring one of there designated subcontracted inspectors
and not dealing with an FAA inspector. The FAA is free if you can get one.
There is usually a four week to six month lead time to get one to come out.
You can hire one of their designated inspectors and get them to come out at
you're convenience. Their fees vary depending on part of the country,
evening, weekend ect. I was quoted $250 for the inspection. The fellow was
DAR from the American Champ factory in Wisconsin.
He looked over the Rebel said nice plane when the experimental hours are
flown of fly it up to the factory I'd like to go up with you to see what this
thing can do. Very nice person, He said it's a nice day give me $150 and
handed me my green slip.
Phil&Lisa Smith #460 N414D

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[apat]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Subject: Re: Canadian Inspections


Hi Bruce !

I've seen some of those 'horror stories' down there, too !
I think your inspectors vary even more than ours, and they only
get to look at a finished airplane - nobody knows what evils
lurk inside !! This may be why US Experimentals generally have a
much lower resale value than Canadian Amateur Builts.

Although our inspections do vary, they always tend to go
more towards wanting MORE than the minimums - usually things that
add to safety, but aren't specified in the regs., or are poorly
specified (like BILINGUAL placards !).

The only thing that hurts is that the government (DOT)
used to do them for free (albeit a bit slowly ...), and now that
they've been delegated, it often runs over $500 !! .... and
then there's the $60 or so per year for "Air Traffic Services",
since our control towers are now privatized too !!

The airlines would dearly LOVE to see all us 'small airplanes'
just go away - and it seems like governments are helping them !
It's an ongoing battle, but WE'RE <NOT> giving up !!

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 02:26 AM 3/5/01 EST, you wrote:

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Some time I wonder if you Canadian boys really benefit from these inspection
requirements. If all these inspectors have that much leeway with their
inspections, it doesn't seem like a very fare or equitable situation for all
builders.

Although Technical counselor inspections are recommended by the FAA the're
not mandatory. One can build an entire kit and take his chances with the
final FAA inspection for an airworthy certificate. After all it's your fanny!
I've seen some kits put together in the States that I would not fly in.
Frankly, I could not believe they even passed inspection. Now that's a scary
thought.

Bruce G
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