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[rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm

Several tubing artists in the group have managed to make a single hard line
(tubing) that runs all the way from tank to single floor valve, but that was
beyond my skills and/or patience, at least at the time. Going to
http://n254mr.com and searching for "fuel line" will bring up lots of photos
and descriptions about my setup. I used a lot of commercial fittings (see
http://summitracing.com or http://jegs.com) for the main fuel lines and vent
lines. They don't leak, but doing it again (and at some point I may) I would
use more hard line (tubing) and fewer fittings, now that I'm more
comfortable with bending and flaring the tubing. I'll expand this a bit,
hopefully to help those who may be entirely new to working with tubing, as I
was.

The first thing to do is become familiar with flaring aluminum tubing, if
you're not already. You need a 37 deg. flaring tool (Parker or equiv.) and
some practice. It's not difficult, especially after you've redone a couple
of parts -- hey, it's just like building the rest of the plane. ;-) Don't
forget to put your sleeve and nut on the tubing before you do the flares,
and in most cases, before most any bends... unless you really want more
practice cutting, bending and flaring tubing.

Of course, coming out of the tank bushing, you start with an AN816-6D nipple
with a 1/4" pipe thread on one end, and 37 deg. flare on the other. If like
me you don't think you want to try to form a single piece of tubing from the
tank all the way to a selector valve on the front floor (or wherever), I
would use a short (~6"-8") straight tube, that will be flared both ends,
from the tank through a grommet to just inside the fuse, then a fairly tight
90 deg. bend aft to another nipple going into your wing root valve (if you
have one -- mine has been very useful already) mounted with Adel clamps.

Back to that first piece of tubing from the tank. First do the grommet hole
in the fuse. Then flare what will be the tank end, add nut and sleeve, then
make the bend, and insert the unflared end of the already bent tube through
the grommet from the wing side, pushing the flare/sleeve/nut all the way to
the grommet, or at least enough to get your flaring tool on that inside end.
Then put the inside end's nut and sleeve on the tube, flare the inside end,
and push the tubing, -- now with flares, sleeves and nuts on both ends --
back to the tank. Connect at the tank, then to the nipple at your inside
valve (again, if you choose to have one.) Then you face choices about how to
get around the bulkhead and aileron push pull tubes before dropping down...
probably another topic -- but the 3003 Versatube (
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/m ... satube.php) is quite
flexible may be useful there where you have to do a short run with multiple
bends in multiple dimensions.

Whenever turning the flare nuts over sleeves and flares, I'd highly
recommend using a little bit of EZ Turn (
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/c ... rnlube.php) lube on the
threads. Get the smallest can -- it'll last literally forever. A local A&P
also recommends a very thin film on the flares themselves, which IMHO is a
good idea, as it helps prevent cracking of the tubing flares as they are
pulled tight against the male side of a flare junction. Keep the film real
thin -- you don't want a bunch of EZ Turn clogging the gascolator.

Hope that helps.

Ron
254R

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 9:44 AM, mike jones <mfjrebel007r@cogeco.ca> wrote:
Hi all



Are there any pics out there of setups for fuel tank to fuselage fittings,
or cam some kind souls describe their setups for me



Cant seem to find a setup that looks right



cheers





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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm

By "commercial fittings" I was referring to some of the more specialized
types of AN pipe & tube fittings you won't find at ACS or Wicks. Things like
a 90 deg. elbow with female flare nut fittings on both ends, or a nipple
with male pipe thread on one end, a 45 deg. bend, and female flare on the
other end, that may have swivel action or not, etc.

The car hardware outlets like Summit, JEGS, and Pegasus have a lot of these
cool specialized lightweight aluminum fittings you may want to use at some
point, or even if not, their catalogs do make for great bedtime reading! :)
They are generally very good quality (Earl, Russel, Aeroquip brands, etc.)
but in the more complex parts, they're not cheap. There's a temptation to go
hog wild with these things, which I confess to doing, especially in the
cross vent transitions. They don't leak -- yet -- but 254R isn't flying yet
either. Obviously, the more fittings, junctions and connections, the more
likely it is something will vibrate loose down the road. I'll have to peek
under the wing fairings quite often. When that gets old, or reveals a
problem, I expect I'll be redoing some things.

In hindsight (that would have been foresight, if I'd been more patient) it's
no doubt worth taking the time to become more comfortable and proficient
bending and flaring tubing, even in tight places, than to overdo the use of
special fittings.

Ron
254R




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Dick Wampach

[rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

Post by Dick Wampach » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm

Ron: This first one is a very good source for specialty fittings, they make
some of them in house.

Hydraulic fittings source; BONACO INC, Upland CA. 1-909-985-3429 AN
Fittings. www.bonacoinc.com under AN Adapters, Page 7 has very short B-nut
to B-nut adapters AN-818 series which I used to come from the wing fittings
to the lines going down the door posts.

GENUINE A/C Parts, Paso Robles CA, 805-239-3169, 800-247-2738
Acct # AIR-646 (Shannon) Lots of hardware & big bolts.
intl@gen-aircraft-hardware.com
http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/store.asp

Please do keep in mind that Aircraft fittings such as AN, MS are 37* flair.
So are a lot of the race car type fittings many are aircraft hardware.
Hardware store type hardware is mostly 45* flair. Just don't try to pair
them up.

Dick Wampach SR-108 N331RW



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:50 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings


By "commercial fittings" I was referring to some of the more specialized
types of AN pipe & tube fittings you won't find at ACS or Wicks. Things like
a 90 deg. elbow with female flare nut fittings on both ends, or a nipple
with male pipe thread on one end, a 45 deg. bend, and female flare on the
other end, that may have swivel action or not, etc.

The car hardware outlets like Summit, JEGS, and Pegasus have a lot of these
cool specialized lightweight aluminum fittings you may want to use at some
point, or even if not, their catalogs do make for great bedtime reading! :)
They are generally very good quality (Earl, Russel, Aeroquip brands, etc.)
but in the more complex parts, they're not cheap. There's a temptation to go
hog wild with these things, which I confess to doing, especially in the
cross vent transitions. They don't leak -- yet -- but 254R isn't flying yet
either. Obviously, the more fittings, junctions and connections, the more
likely it is something will vibrate loose down the road. I'll have to peek
under the wing fairings quite often. When that gets old, or reveals a
problem, I expect I'll be redoing some things.

In hindsight (that would have been foresight, if I'd been more patient) it's
no doubt worth taking the time to become more comfortable and proficient
bending and flaring tubing, even in tight places, than to overdo the use of
special fittings.

Ron
254R





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mike jones

[rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

Post by mike jones » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm

Thanks for the info

My concern is the connection from tank to shut off valve, should there not
be a flex hose instead of hard piping all the way

Cheers

Mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:53 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

Several tubing artists in the group have managed to make a single hard line
(tubing) that runs all the way from tank to single floor valve, but that was
beyond my skills and/or patience, at least at the time. Going to
http://n254mr.com and searching for "fuel line" will bring up lots of photos
and descriptions about my setup. I used a lot of commercial fittings (see
http://summitracing.com or http://jegs.com) for the main fuel lines and vent
lines. They don't leak, but doing it again (and at some point I may) I would
use more hard line (tubing) and fewer fittings, now that I'm more
comfortable with bending and flaring the tubing. I'll expand this a bit,
hopefully to help those who may be entirely new to working with tubing, as I
was.

The first thing to do is become familiar with flaring aluminum tubing, if
you're not already. You need a 37 deg. flaring tool (Parker or equiv.) and
some practice. It's not difficult, especially after you've redone a couple
of parts -- hey, it's just like building the rest of the plane. ;-) Don't
forget to put your sleeve and nut on the tubing before you do the flares,
and in most cases, before most any bends... unless you really want more
practice cutting, bending and flaring tubing.

Of course, coming out of the tank bushing, you start with an AN816-6D nipple
with a 1/4" pipe thread on one end, and 37 deg. flare on the other. If like
me you don't think you want to try to form a single piece of tubing from the
tank all the way to a selector valve on the front floor (or wherever), I
would use a short (~6"-8") straight tube, that will be flared both ends,
from the tank through a grommet to just inside the fuse, then a fairly tight
90 deg. bend aft to another nipple going into your wing root valve (if you
have one -- mine has been very useful already) mounted with Adel clamps.

Back to that first piece of tubing from the tank. First do the grommet hole
in the fuse. Then flare what will be the tank end, add nut and sleeve, then
make the bend, and insert the unflared end of the already bent tube through
the grommet from the wing side, pushing the flare/sleeve/nut all the way to
the grommet, or at least enough to get your flaring tool on that inside end.
Then put the inside end's nut and sleeve on the tube, flare the inside end,
and push the tubing, -- now with flares, sleeves and nuts on both ends --
back to the tank. Connect at the tank, then to the nipple at your inside
valve (again, if you choose to have one.) Then you face choices about how to
get around the bulkhead and aileron push pull tubes before dropping down...
probably another topic -- but the 3003 Versatube (
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/m ... satube.php) is quite
flexible may be useful there where you have to do a short run with multiple
bends in multiple dimensions.

Whenever turning the flare nuts over sleeves and flares, I'd highly
recommend using a little bit of EZ Turn (
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/c ... rnlube.php) lube on the
threads. Get the smallest can -- it'll last literally forever. A local A&P
also recommends a very thin film on the flares themselves, which IMHO is a
good idea, as it helps prevent cracking of the tubing flares as they are
pulled tight against the male side of a flare junction. Keep the film real
thin -- you don't want a bunch of EZ Turn clogging the gascolator.

Hope that helps.

Ron
254R

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 9:44 AM, mike jones <mfjrebel007r@cogeco.ca> wrote:
Hi all



Are there any pics out there of setups for fuel tank to fuselage fittings,
or cam some kind souls describe their setups for me



Cant seem to find a setup that looks right



cheers





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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm

There may be some small flex there, but not enough to disturb a hard line
with a 90 deg. bend going to a rubber-mounted valve. Hard line can easily
take such a small flex across that span without a problem.

Hose options are either teminated with hose clamps, or full on threaded hose
ends.There's limited room for full fitted, threaded hose ends there, and the
fittings aren't cheap. Similarly, some people would prefer to avoid hose &
clamp hardware, at least in the main fuel lines, because the hoses wear out,
from the clamps or otherwise.

If you're committed to hose with clamps at both ends, you could use an AN842
elbow through the fuse grommet, with the inboard end of the elbow going
directly into your valve's pipe threads.

Ron
254R


On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 5:08 PM, mike jones <mfjrebel007r@cogeco.ca> wrote:
Thanks for the info

My concern is the connection from tank to shut off valve, should there not
be a flex hose instead of hard piping all the way

Cheers

Mike#007


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Bob Andrews

[rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

Post by Bob Andrews » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm

Hi Ron,

Might want to check out www.PegasusAutoRacing.com. I used them for my
braided flex line and associated braided line fittings (brake lines and
float hydraulic lines) as well as regular aluminum AN hydraulic fittings.
Good prices compared to others.

Cheers, Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:50 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

By "commercial fittings" I was referring to some of the more specialized
types of AN pipe & tube fittings you won't find at ACS or Wicks. Things like
a 90 deg. elbow with female flare nut fittings on both ends, or a nipple
with male pipe thread on one end, a 45 deg. bend, and female flare on the
other end, that may have swivel action or not, etc.

The car hardware outlets like Summit, JEGS, and Pegasus have a lot of these
cool specialized lightweight aluminum fittings you may want to use at some
point, or even if not, their catalogs do make for great bedtime reading! :)
They are generally very good quality (Earl, Russel, Aeroquip brands, etc.)
but in the more complex parts, they're not cheap. There's a temptation to go
hog wild with these things, which I confess to doing, especially in the
cross vent transitions. They don't leak -- yet -- but 254R isn't flying yet
either. Obviously, the more fittings, junctions and connections, the more
likely it is something will vibrate loose down the road. I'll have to peek
under the wing fairings quite often. When that gets old, or reveals a
problem, I expect I'll be redoing some things.

In hindsight (that would have been foresight, if I'd been more patient) it's
no doubt worth taking the time to become more comfortable and proficient
bending and flaring tubing, even in tight places, than to overdo the use of
special fittings.

Ron
254R




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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm

Know Pegasus well, even mentioned them in second par. of the last message to
this thread, below. :-) You're right though... Summit's separate handling
(say wot?) and shipping charges are steep.

Just retrieved a JEGS catalog from the mailbox a few minutes ago, so the
rest of the day is shot, while I learn more about esoteric car stuff. Life
is good.

Ron
254R


On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Bob Andrews <robert@montanasky.us> wrote:
Hi Ron,

Might want to check out www.PegasusAutoRacing.com. I used them for my
braided flex line and associated braided line fittings (brake lines and
float hydraulic lines) as well as regular aluminum AN hydraulic fittings.
Good prices compared to others.

Cheers, Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:50 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

By "commercial fittings" I was referring to some of the more specialized
types of AN pipe & tube fittings you won't find at ACS or Wicks. Things
like
a 90 deg. elbow with female flare nut fittings on both ends, or a nipple
with male pipe thread on one end, a 45 deg. bend, and female flare on the
other end, that may have swivel action or not, etc.

The car hardware outlets like Summit, JEGS, and Pegasus have a lot of these
cool specialized lightweight aluminum fittings you may want to use at some
point, or even if not, their catalogs do make for great bedtime reading! :)
They are generally very good quality (Earl, Russel, Aeroquip brands, etc.)
but in the more complex parts, they're not cheap. There's a temptation to
go
hog wild with these things, which I confess to doing, especially in the
cross vent transitions. They don't leak -- yet -- but 254R isn't flying yet
either. Obviously, the more fittings, junctions and connections, the more
likely it is something will vibrate loose down the road. I'll have to peek
under the wing fairings quite often. When that gets old, or reveals a
problem, I expect I'll be redoing some things.

In hindsight (that would have been foresight, if I'd been more patient)
it's
no doubt worth taking the time to become more comfortable and proficient
bending and flaring tubing, even in tight places, than to overdo the use of
special fittings.

Ron
254R



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Joel Jacobs

[rebel-builders] fuel tank to fuselage fittings

Post by Joel Jacobs » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 pm

Another source that I have used is anplumbing.com
They have the Earls line and even had the metric to an-6 fittings I
needed to fit my Weber carbs.
Joel
Rebel 416R



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