I did NOT mean to imply that there WAS a minimum empty weight
for US Experimental homebuilts - I don't know. In Canada, there IS !
The Canadian max empty weight is arrived at by some bizzare calculation
involving your hat size, wing area, & engine horespower, if I recall ...
Certainly, as you say, there is nothing that I know of preventing a
US Experimental aircraft being registered at 1,320 gross with 1,000 lb
empty weight. PROVIDED it is flown with a PPL or higher !
In any case, my understanding is that, in order to fly ANY aircraft
with a Sport Pilot licence, that aircraft must MEET <ALL> REQUIREMENTS
for LSA - ie max. empty weight, as well as max gross weight, as well as
max cruise & stall speeds, and fixed/ground adjustable pitch prop, etc..
That is only MY understanding, although it seems to be shared by many.
I'm open to correction ! ;-)
--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 09 March 2009 06:08, Ron Shannon wrote:
[ALERT: Another long winded epistle from Ron follows. May be headache
inducing. Read only if all issues of Readers' Digest from 1962 are missing
from all libraries with a 50 mile radius, and even then at your own risk,
which may be substantial.]
Bob,
Your mention of a max. empty weight for LSA's caught my attention. I am
not familiar with any regulation in the US of maximum empty weight for an
amateur built experimental airplane (ABE - my acronym only, doesn't appear
in any regs as such), whether flown under light sport regulations or not,
and I don't think there is one.
In the ASTM standards for Special Light Sport Aircraft (SLSA -- factory
built, turnkey aircraft) there _is_ a maximum empty weight standard. If
memory serves, I believe it is stated thusly: max GW (1320 lb.) minus two
170 lb occupants (340 lbs.), minus half the engine's horsepower in fuel. A
100 HP engine would require an allowance for a minimum 50 lbs. of fuel
(approx. 8.3 gal.), so the maximum empty weight of an SLSA so powered
would be 940 lbs. -- if my math is correct.
As you probably know, there is another category of light sport aircraft
that is very confusingly called "Experimental Light Sport Aircraft." The
ELSA is not what most of us are building, which is amateur built
experimental (ABE). The ELSA must first be an SLSA qualified and certified
design, though part of which is built by the owner. Unlike the amateur
built experimental (ABE) type, the owner-built portion of a true ELSA can
be as little as say, 5%. Because the ASTM max. empty weight applies to
SLSA's, it would also apply to ELSA's which in effect have to be approved
SLSA's before they can be sold partially completed as an ELSA.
On the other hand, when what we are building, a true amateur built
experimental (ABE), is inspected here in the US, the inspector (DAR) is
not concerned with whether it will be flown by a light sport pilot or an
ATP-rated pilot. The pilot's qualifications are irrelevant. Similarly,
within ABE aircraft regs. there is no designation or sub-classification
such as a "light sport ABE" or "ABE limited to light sport pilots", so the
light sport regulations, including ASTM standards for SLSA's, are
technically irrelevant to the inspection and certification of any ABE.
There is nothing on the airworthiness certificate (much less the
registration) which says anything about light sport.
It is the ABE builder who is responsible for establishing the GW of the
airplane he builds, because he is the manufacturer. As you probably know,
no plane, whether experimental or conventionally certificated, can ever be
flown under light sport regluations if it has _ever_ had an airworthiness
certificate issued when its gross weight was more than 1320 lbs. (That's
why a Cessna 140 can never be flown as a light sport, even if the owner
somehow gets a new airworthiness cert., or swears on a stack of whatever
never to fly it heavier than 1320 lbs., even though its original GW is
just a little too heavy. A bummer, but true.) So... in order for a sport
pilot to be able to legally fly a Rebel as a light sport plane, the only
requirement vis-a-vis the airplane paperwork is that the builder must set
its max. GW at 1320 lbs. or less at the time of its first inspection, for
its first airworthiness certificate. This is set in two places: on the
official first weight and balance statement, which will probably be
inspected, and on the permanently-affixed metal data plate, which
definitely WILL be inspected.
It is certainly possible that some DAR would refuse to issue an
airworthiness certificate for an ABE plane with a GW of 1320 lbs. that
weighed (to push this to an absurd extreme) say, 1300 lbs. empty, and that
DAR may even have in the back of his mind knowledge of the ASTM standard
for SLSA's, even though in fact there is no official FAA regulation for
maximum empty weight of any ABE. The DAR has some discretion when it comes
to something that's clearly absurd, for sure. But if I, as a sport pilot,
want to fly a 1320 GW Rebel that has an empty weight of 1090 lbs, and it
can only carry me, a chart, a toothbrush, scarf, credit card, and an
hour's worth of fuel -- it would be legal. It would be a short flight
plan, given reserve requirements, but....
As the first "from scratch" sport pilot in most of Northern California, I
was forced study this stuff quite a bit. The regs were all new and even
more ambiguous than they are now. Nobody, including the local FSDO and
DPE's knew what some of the regs meant. I bought the Rebel project 3 weeks
before I got my sport pilot ticket and would not have done so if I wasn't
sure that there was no formal max. empty weight involved for me to fly it
as a light sport plane -- because at that time I couldn't know what the
empty weight would end up being. If I'd had the slightest doubt, I
wouldn't have bought something I might not be able to fly.
Now of course my great certainty about all this doesn't make it so, and I
admit I have been wrong at least once before. :-) But if there's a
regulation for max. empty weight of a true amateur built experimental
airplane, whether flown by a light sport pilot or not, I've yet to find
it, and believe me, I'm even more highly motivated to keep a sharp eye out
for it now than I was when I bought 254R! If anyone knows of such a reg,
I'd rather know now than later, while there's still time to take out the
DVD player, air conditioning, and known ice equipment. :-)
Best,
Ron
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 6:50 PM, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:...
It is POSSIBLE that you could come in under the 872 lb. ?? (890 ??)
max. allowed for LSA ..... JUST... with the Lyc. O-235-L2C.
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