firewall mod

[Legeorgen]

Wayne,

I just bought 357R and want to use an 0 320 but the previous owner did not
cut back the firewall. Murphy says it's a compromise but I hear you say you
would not do it? I have been reading the list for several weeks and respect
your opinion. Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

Blue skies and tail winds.
Bruce Georgen
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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Bruce !

I'm flying # 230R, with an O-320, and the regular firewall
position. The tail does come up quickly when empty, but it flies
nicely, with the empty CofG at 8.9" ..... Having the firewall
in the regular position gives better visibility and makes radio
installation easier.

You will likely get slightly faster cruise if you move the
firewall. Also, you should do ALL of the 'floatfix' mods, even if
you are not going to floats, whether you move the firewall or not.
Having the extra length out front puts extra strain on the firewall,
corner wraps, and sidewalls - you will want all the 'beef' you can
get.

What engine did #357 have in it originally ?? Was it flying ??

....bobp

--------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 01:02 AM 9/8/00 EDT, you wrote:

Wayne,

I just bought 357R and want to use an 0 320 but the previous owner did not
cut back the firewall. Murphy says it's a compromise but I hear you say you
would not do it? I have been reading the list for several weeks and respect
your opinion. Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

Blue skies and tail winds.
Bruce Georgen
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

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Your following message has been delivered to the 162 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 18:02:58 on 8 Sep 2000.
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All,

I talked to Bruce today (old fashion phone style) and ironed out some of the
compromises that are necessary if you go original or cut back firewall.
Numerous discussions in the archives, etc. about this and the necessary
reinforcements, so no sense re-typing all the pros and cons again. I prefer
the original position, for numerous reasons, as you all know by now!
Visibilty is a big one as I am not sitting 3 inches further back into the
fuselage due to the firewall, rudder pedals etc all being pushed 3 inches
aft. I am also opposed to the windshield sitting out over the engine
compartment by about 2 inches. (although I have seen a nice installation by
Glenn Cook, where he trimmed the windshield back enough that it would fit
without hanging over the firewall lip)

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 1:02 AM
Subject: firewall mod

Wayne,

I just bought 357R and want to use an 0 320 but the previous owner did not
cut back the firewall. Murphy says it's a compromise but I hear you say

you

would not do it? I have been reading the list for several weeks and

respect

your opinion. Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

Blue skies and tail winds.
Bruce Georgen

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[Legeorgen]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the tips! I will install all the mods. I bought the kit unfinished
from a previous owner who lost his enthusiasm. I currently fly and built a
912S Kitfox but saw a rebel (the one that suffered an accident a few weeks
ago in Libby Montana) at Arlington this year and, well, I had to have one. I
think It's a lot more airplane than my Kitfox. I hate saying that, I really
like may fox, but It's true.

I would prefer to leave the firewall where it's at but Murphy said the plane
would be nose heavy and they recommended the 3" cut. They said it would
handle better and to not do the mod would be a compromise, but it seems none
of you guys do it that way. Who's correct? I'm confused.

What's your opinion of the elite and a 360? Does it really have more useful
load or are you just burning more fuel?

Bruce G.
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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Bruce,

There are over 100 Rebels here in Ontario now, and, "They
don't call them REBELS for nothing - no 2 are the same !!"

Most of the new builders are cutting the firewalls back, but
some prefer the more forward seating position and better visibility
in the old spot. One thing for sure, with that weight out in front
an extra 3", every wave you hit will put a much bigger load on the
airframe ! Have to admit, I like the old seating position, but
it is indeed a trade-off. No big problem with flight or handling
characteristics, though, that I've seen.... There are some O-235
Rebels that seem to fly more nose-heavy than my O-320 - perhaps
small variations in stabilizer angles ???

The Kitfox with a 912S must be quite a hot-rod !! The Rebel
with the O-320 will give it a good run, though, and carry a much larger
load, in a lot more room ....

Everybody here seems to agree that the Rebel with an O-320,
at 150 hp. (NOT 160, because of fuel availability ..) is :
"THE best float plane in the world ! "

The factory Elite taildragger weighs 1,100 lb., empty ...
With 180 hp, the Elite sure is an EXCITING airplane to fly, though.
It will make you smile !! ( 1,800 fpm climb is exhilarating !!)

....bobp

----------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 10:03 PM 9/8/00 EDT, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the tips! I will install all the mods. I bought the kit unfinished
from a previous owner who lost his enthusiasm. I currently fly and built a
912S Kitfox but saw a rebel (the one that suffered an accident a few weeks
ago in Libby Montana) at Arlington this year and, well, I had to have one. I
think It's a lot more airplane than my Kitfox. I hate saying that, I really
like may fox, but It's true.

I would prefer to leave the firewall where it's at but Murphy said the plane
would be nose heavy and they recommended the 3" cut. They said it would
handle better and to not do the mod would be a compromise, but it seems none
of you guys do it that way. Who's correct? I'm confused.

What's your opinion of the elite and a 360? Does it really have more useful
load or are you just burning more fuel?

Bruce G.
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

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Your following message has been delivered to the 163 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 20:33:23 on 10 Sep 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bob (and All), those are 2 good points: Stabilzer angle and 150 H.P.

I originally found my O-235 powered Rebel a little nose heavy as it always
needed a little up elevator to hold level flight (really needs up trim now
with O-320 and G-25 battery still on firewall as to busy (lazy?) to move it
to the rear). When I mounted Howards (O-320-E2D powered) horizontal
stabilizer I purposely mounted it at 0.6 degrees, instead of 1.0 degrees, to
give it a little bit of built in down force to hold the nose up without
trim. Worked perfect, as still even today on Amphib floats the trim tab is
always set to neutral in level flight. If I remember right yours, on 230R,
is set at about 0.8 degrees (but I'm not positive).

I have always said to go 150 H.P., when on floats, for fuel availablity at
remote marinas etc where you can't get 100LL. Also had a phone call from
Jack W. last Sunday looking for a Warp Drive blade to get Mike home from
Kingston. Seems the 160 H.P. cracked a blade on him!

Blue skies,
Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: firewall mod

Hi Bruce,

There are over 100 Rebels here in Ontario now, and, "They
don't call them REBELS for nothing - no 2 are the same !!"

Most of the new builders are cutting the firewalls back, but
some prefer the more forward seating position and better visibility
in the old spot. One thing for sure, with that weight out in front
an extra 3", every wave you hit will put a much bigger load on the
airframe ! Have to admit, I like the old seating position, but
it is indeed a trade-off. No big problem with flight or handling
characteristics, though, that I've seen.... There are some O-235
Rebels that seem to fly more nose-heavy than my O-320 - perhaps
small variations in stabilizer angles ???

The Kitfox with a 912S must be quite a hot-rod !! The Rebel
with the O-320 will give it a good run, though, and carry a much larger
load, in a lot more room ....

Everybody here seems to agree that the Rebel with an O-320,
at 150 hp. (NOT 160, because of fuel availability ..) is :
"THE best float plane in the world ! "

The factory Elite taildragger weighs 1,100 lb., empty ...
With 180 hp, the Elite sure is an EXCITING airplane to fly, though.
It will make you smile !! ( 1,800 fpm climb is exhilarating !!)

....bobp

----------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 10:03 PM 9/8/00 EDT, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the tips! I will install all the mods. I bought the kit

unfinished

from a previous owner who lost his enthusiasm. I currently fly and built

a

912S Kitfox but saw a rebel (the one that suffered an accident a few

weeks

ago in Libby Montana) at Arlington this year and, well, I had to have

one. I

think It's a lot more airplane than my Kitfox. I hate saying that, I

really

like may fox, but It's true.

I would prefer to leave the firewall where it's at but Murphy said the

plane

would be nose heavy and they recommended the 3" cut. They said it would
handle better and to not do the mod would be a compromise, but it seems

none

of you guys do it that way. Who's correct? I'm confused.

What's your opinion of the elite and a 360? Does it really have more

useful

load or are you just burning more fuel?

Bruce G.

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[Bob Patterson]

INTERESTING !!! That is the first reported case of blade
failure on a Warp Drive on a Rebel with 160 hp. !!

There have been several reports in the past on other aircraft
with 160 hp. Lycomings showing cracks in the blades, but now we know
it will happen on Rebels, too !! Anyone running 160 hp. should check
their blades VERY carefully - Warp Drive have been warning people
about this problem for some time.

It seems to be something to do with different harmonic vibrations
caused by balance changes and the power pulses from the higher compression
pistons in the 160 hp models - there haven't been ANY problems with the
150 hp. Lycomings. (That I've heard of ....)

Yet ANOTHER reason to stick with 150 hp for your float-equipped
Rebel !!

Rebel #230R sure is sprightly with quarter tanks and no luggage !!
Sure was a pleasant surprise after a month of flying the Super Rebel,
which is a pretty dazzling performer in its own right !
I took the Rebel out for an hour's run the other day - boy, that tail
just pops up, and we were off in a couple of hundred feet, and climbing
at 1,200+ fpm - YAHOOOOO !!!! :-) :-) It's like a sports car,
after driving the Mercedes Sedan - REALLY nimble !!!

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 08:32 PM 9/10/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob (and All), those are 2 good points: Stabilzer angle and 150 H.P.

I originally found my O-235 powered Rebel a little nose heavy as it always
needed a little up elevator to hold level flight (really needs up trim now
with O-320 and G-25 battery still on firewall as to busy (lazy?) to move it
to the rear). When I mounted Howards (O-320-E2D powered) horizontal
stabilizer I purposely mounted it at 0.6 degrees, instead of 1.0 degrees, to
give it a little bit of built in down force to hold the nose up without
trim. Worked perfect, as still even today on Amphib floats the trim tab is
always set to neutral in level flight. If I remember right yours, on 230R,
is set at about 0.8 degrees (but I'm not positive).

I have always said to go 150 H.P., when on floats, for fuel availablity at
remote marinas etc where you can't get 100LL. Also had a phone call from
Jack W. last Sunday looking for a Warp Drive blade to get Mike home from
Kingston. Seems the 160 H.P. cracked a blade on him!

Blue skies,
Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: firewall mod

Hi Bruce,

There are over 100 Rebels here in Ontario now, and, "They
don't call them REBELS for nothing - no 2 are the same !!"

Most of the new builders are cutting the firewalls back, but
some prefer the more forward seating position and better visibility
in the old spot. One thing for sure, with that weight out in front
an extra 3", every wave you hit will put a much bigger load on the
airframe ! Have to admit, I like the old seating position, but
it is indeed a trade-off. No big problem with flight or handling
characteristics, though, that I've seen.... There are some O-235
Rebels that seem to fly more nose-heavy than my O-320 - perhaps
small variations in stabilizer angles ???

The Kitfox with a 912S must be quite a hot-rod !! The Rebel
with the O-320 will give it a good run, though, and carry a much larger
load, in a lot more room ....

Everybody here seems to agree that the Rebel with an O-320,
at 150 hp. (NOT 160, because of fuel availability ..) is :
"THE best float plane in the world ! "

The factory Elite taildragger weighs 1,100 lb., empty ...
With 180 hp, the Elite sure is an EXCITING airplane to fly, though.
It will make you smile !! ( 1,800 fpm climb is exhilarating !!)

....bobp

----------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 10:03 PM 9/8/00 EDT, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the tips! I will install all the mods. I bought the kit

unfinished

from a previous owner who lost his enthusiasm. I currently fly and built

a

912S Kitfox but saw a rebel (the one that suffered an accident a few

weeks

ago in Libby Montana) at Arlington this year and, well, I had to have

one. I

think It's a lot more airplane than my Kitfox. I hate saying that, I

really

like may fox, but It's true.

I would prefer to leave the firewall where it's at but Murphy said the

plane

would be nose heavy and they recommended the 3" cut. They said it would
handle better and to not do the mod would be a compromise, but it seems

none

of you guys do it that way. Who's correct? I'm confused.

What's your opinion of the elite and a 360? Does it really have more

useful

load or are you just burning more fuel?

Bruce G.

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