[rebel-builders] LSA weight

[Tim Hickey]

I agree with Ralph, as I have not seen any published figures for a maximum
empty weight for an aircraft that is to be operated under the Light Sport
Rules.
However, it would seem that empty weight, plus pilot and passenger (for a
two seat aircraft) plus minimum fuel would give a clue. For paperwork
purposes, I believe that pilot and passenger would be listed at 340 lbs.
(170 x 2). Fuel minimum would be 30 minutes at landing. Or somewhere near 3
gallons. So if you wanted to fly for an hour, with a passenger, you would
need somewhere near 9 gallons. Let' call it 10.
So we have:
340 pounds people
60 pounds fuel
0 baggage
(I am including oil in this example to be included in the empty weight of
the aircraft)
With 400 pounds of payload, and a gross allowable of 1320, it would seem
that 920 would be the absolute maximum empty weight one could think would
work as a Light Sport.
And this is pretty restrictive. Your mileage (body weight) may vary.
170 lb. people are not the norm any more. Actually, I think the aircraft
certified as Light Sport are required to use 190 pounds as a pilot or
passenger weight. Those of us building a Rebel and planning to fly it un the
provisions of Light Sport Pilot are making Experimental Amateur built
aircraft. We are not making Light Sport-Experimental aircraft. This is
confusing given the words used in describing the different aircraft.

Anybody have additional information about this subject?

Tim Hickey


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 8:51 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] LSA weight

There is no maximum empty weight published for US LSA aircraft that I am
aware of. However, I have seen it stated that the DAR may refuse to
provide a certificate if the useful load / fuel weight / crew don't make
reasonable sense. The thinking is that they want to prevent someone from
registering at 1320 pounds and then operating at higher weight. Yes, I
know that will happen anyway but not to encourage it.
Ralph Baker

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Darn good (educated) guess there Tim.

In Canada this is covered under the Minimum useful load calculation for
AULA's in DS10141E .

Two place aircraft are as follows:

Wu = 350 + 0.5P Where P = power in BHP and W = lbs.

Therefore for with a 100HP engine your minimum useful would be 350 +
0.5(100) = 400lbs

Therefore Max empty weight would be 920lbs (1320-400). That said...there is
no reason you can't build a Rebel well below 920lbs. The 912 Rebel I built
was 649lb with the Rotax 912 and a GSC prop. It even had the 1650 landing
gear on it, 3/4" axle Matco's wheels and aluminum tail feathers. Even if you
build the Rebel from a full blown 1650 kit with .063 main spars, streamline
wing struts etc there is no reason, with a Rotax installation, that you
can't keep the airplane to around 750lbs if you keep it SPARSE!.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Hickey" <tjhickey@iowatelecom.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] LSA weight

I agree with Ralph, as I have not seen any published figures for a maximum
empty weight for an aircraft that is to be operated under the Light Sport
Rules.
However, it would seem that empty weight, plus pilot and passenger (for a
two seat aircraft) plus minimum fuel would give a clue. For paperwork
purposes, I believe that pilot and passenger would be listed at 340 lbs.
(170 x 2). Fuel minimum would be 30 minutes at landing. Or somewhere near
3
gallons. So if you wanted to fly for an hour, with a passenger, you would
need somewhere near 9 gallons. Let' call it 10.
So we have:
340 pounds people
60 pounds fuel
0 baggage
(I am including oil in this example to be included in the empty weight of
the aircraft)
With 400 pounds of payload, and a gross allowable of 1320, it would seem
that 920 would be the absolute maximum empty weight one could think would
work as a Light Sport.
And this is pretty restrictive. Your mileage (body weight) may vary.
170 lb. people are not the norm any more. Actually, I think the aircraft
certified as Light Sport are required to use 190 pounds as a pilot or
passenger weight. Those of us building a Rebel and planning to fly it un
the
provisions of Light Sport Pilot are making Experimental Amateur built
aircraft. We are not making Light Sport-Experimental aircraft. This is
confusing given the words used in describing the different aircraft.

Anybody have additional information about this subject?

Tim Hickey


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 8:51 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] LSA weight

There is no maximum empty weight published for US LSA aircraft that I am
aware of. However, I have seen it stated that the DAR may refuse to
provide a certificate if the useful load / fuel weight / crew don't make
reasonable sense. The thinking is that they want to prevent someone from
registering at 1320 pounds and then operating at higher weight. Yes, I
know that will happen anyway but not to encourage it.
Ralph Baker

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[Tim Hickey]

Thanks, Wayne.

Two days ago I received a packet from Murphy Aircraft telling us that we
have been assigned serial number 808R. With that I figure that it is time to
do a small introduction of us to the group.
I am Tim Hickey, and I live in Montrose, Iowa. My brother, Mike, lives in
Keokuk, Iowa. Keokuk and Montrose are about 10 miles apart, and both are on
the Mississippi River. If you are looking on a map, we are in the extreme
southeastern part of Iowa.

We are going to jointly build a Murphy Rebel and intend to fly it as Sport
Pilots. We think that there is some advantage to that for the future. I am
almost 62, (61 and 5/8th) and am a retired engineer. My brother, who is
younger,and thus has to work, is a contractor in Keokuk, (Hickey Contracting
Co) specializing in concrete paving, foundations, and the such.

We are not totally green when it comes to building, as I have built and
still fly a Zenith CH-300. This machine was built from plans in 1983, 84,
85, 86, 87, with the first flight in 1988. (We hope that this one goes
quicker) I have about 1700 hours on the Zenith now, and it has proven to be
a fine and rugged machine.

I apologize in advance for asking some of those same "newbie" questions that
most of you old time listers have heard before, but that is the way things
work.

I would like to ask that any member of this list who is willing, to please
send me, to my own email address, your name, your location, and what project
you have, and how far along you are on it.
I ask that because in the future I just know that I am going to want to ask
one or two persons a particular question, and I can do that directly with
out "burdening" the list with a lot of info that may be old hat to the
regular members.
Plus I am interested in where people are located. I have already found some
interesting people in Australia. (You know who you are, Rick, Ian, John, and
Ivor.) (Sorry Ivor). (Ivor is in New Zealand.)

The internet, and this list, will be a big asset when we finally get to
building. (No, we do not have a deliverly date). I will try to add to the
dialogue as appropriate, and hope that others will do the same for me.
My email is

tjhickey@iowatelecom.net

Thanks.






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[NormIsler]

Tim-

Welcome to you and Mike as the latest additions to the Murphy builder
family. As family, we can tell you that over the past year or two. sometimes the
response time from "Ma and Pa Murphy" out in Chilliwack takes a little while,
but they always make it right due good time!

Welcome to the group!

Norm Isler
Elite 702E




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[Keith Leitch]

Wecome Tim and Mike! I am TRYING to build a Rebel and
most of the plane is in Northern Minnesota but the
wings are currently over here in Hawaii. I'm trying to
get them built while we are stationed here.
Good luck on your project!
Keith R661




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